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Guest gimmemoresalad

Bottom Sitting And "Hyperventilating"

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Guest gimmemoresalad

Okay... so after all that mess with my fish a week or so ago, they seemed to be doing better. Both in separate tanks now, acting like they feel fine, etc. Just had some lingering red streaks on the fins of both and popeye in one fish. So I ordered some Maracyn II and it finally came in the mail. The fish with the popeye is in a tank that's still finishing cycling, so I was afraid to dose that tank because I didn't know if the meds would interact funny with the odd parameters, and I thought the combo of the two would cause unnecessary stress. So I dosed the smaller tank, which has a well established cycle. The fish I dosed only had a few red streaks on his fins and was acting like he felt fine, but the streaks were showing no signs of healing.

Now I come back from class this evening (24 hours after the first Maracyn II dose), and the fish in the dosed tank is bottom sitting and breathing very fast. He looks like he's in a lot of distress. He was acting fine yesterday.

I'll post parameters when I get back from my staff meeting that's about to start... :krazy:

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Guest gimmemoresalad

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? between 5 and 10

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 6.5

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Drops

[*]Water temperature? 78

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10gal, over 2 years

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? AquaTech 5-15

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 50% weekly

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 fancy goldfish (not sure on his particular breed), approx. 3 inch body... plus tail.

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? AquaSafe

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? TetraFin variety pellets twice daily, dried shrimp as an occasional treat

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? Nope... recently moved a tankmate out into a larger tank of his own.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? Maracyn II... 24hours ago, the prescribed dose of 2 packets for a 10gal for the first dose, haven't added tonight's one-packet dose yet.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No. He already had a little bit of streaking on his fins, which has not improved or gotten worse.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Bottom sitting, fin clamping, gasping very quickly... his "respiration rate" is approx. 120 gasps/minute (so you can gauge what I mean by "hyperventilating"...) I just noticed this behavior when I got back this evening around 9pm (I was gone almost all day, though, so he could have been doing it long before 9)

Help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance, guys <3

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Take out all the Maracyn at once. It is a very strong medication and one I personally never will use again (another story). He is having a bad reaction and this is not normal at all. Give him fresh clear water and add 0.1% salt for stress.

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Guest gimmemoresalad

Okay. Will activated carbon be okay, or should I remove the meds via water change? I put him in a bucket of clean water with an airstone because I thought it must be the meds - it's the only thing that changed. I guess I'll stick the carbon in the filter and let it run a bit before putting him back in his tank.

I'm out of salt, but I might have time to get some tomorrow.

For my other fish... I'm almost certain he's got septicemia?... his eyes are bulging way out and his tail and fins have lots of red streaks and you can tell that even the skin under the scales has gone red along his back. I really ordered the Maracyn II for him, but was afraid to dose the tank since it's not quite all the way cycled and I couldn't find info on whether it was safe. Should I try it for him? Or wait til he's cycled and then try? He doesn't seem to be getting any better on his own, but he's been like this for a couple weeks and isn't getting worse and isn't acting like he feels bad. He just looks bad. When he swims along the glass during his "feed me!" dance, he bumps his bulged eye back in and I can see it popping back in and and out as it bumps the glass... like squishsquishsquish :blink: No losing scales and no acting sick (bottom sitting, fin clamping, or anything like that) no getting streakier... or is there a better action for me to take? I think this is just the residual effect of all that mess that went on in my other thread.

Edited by gimmemoresalad

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OK...well, Maracyn 2 is not the only medication out there...it is such a tricky one to get right as it depends on so many things, one is absolute darkness!Besides I do think that your fish are suffering from cycle stress and this is a very severe stressor that will continue with or without meds until you are done cycling..Im afraid.

Since he seems active I would focus on your cycle first personallly. Meds will damage your cycle. Go for a slower cycle, more water changes and matching exactly of pH and temp with those. Plenty of air bubbles- all these small things will DECREASE stress and stress shows up as red streaks in fins.

The heavily breathing fish also needs extra oxygen to recover. Full water change done slow and carefully. Carbon in as well.

Post back when you can! Good luck!

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Guest gimmemoresalad

Sorry for being confusing... the two fish each have their own tanks. The tank I actually dosed with the Maracyn II has a very well established cycle. The cycling one did not get any meds and has the more poorly looking fish in it... but his health is the same now as it was before I moved him to his own tank (they shared the established tank until a couple weeks ago... I got the new tank partially cycled before the move, but my baby cycle bumped real bad when I took out the carbon that had come with the filter so I could give the fish his last kill-the-hatched-baby-flukes prazi round).

*Edit: By "more poorly looking fish", I mean PRIOR to bad reactions to Maracyn!

Edited by gimmemoresalad

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So fish A was looking very bad and got moved to partially cycled tank.

And fish B was not so bad -but red fins -stayed in cycled tank- which was then medicated?

Is that right? Now its my turn to be confused lol. :D

Anyway...whatever, I think both fish are suffering from New Tank Syndrome no? And meds don't usually help with this. Salt will though. Every time you change the water you can add one teaspoon with each new gallon. That will help them both. What do you think? main thing...how are they behaving as of now? Any unusual behavior? Bottom sitting? Gasping?

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Guest gimmemoresalad

Yep, you got 'em sorted correctly =D

How could "Fish B"'s tank have new tank syndrome? His BBs are used to a ridiculous bioload, and now they've just got him to deal with.

I added carbon and changed his water 100% last night and other than picking his dorsal up some, he hasn't improved at all. He's not worse, though, so that's good, right? Other than salt, is there anything else I can do for him?

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Oh yikes me bad. I think I need some more tank history here. I am getting muddled. When did the redness start (shall we stick with A and B or do we have names for the fish? )

Was the redness a result of cycling or did it happen after cycling ?

Yes not worse is good but I still want to find the origin of the redness...it depends what caused this as to how it should be treated.

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The fish in question is named Midas... let's just leave the other fish (his name is Levi) out of this thread for simplicity's sake.

Okay. So Midas lives in a 10gal that has been running 2+ years with a well established cycle. I never have issues with water parameters (other than when both fish were living in the tank together and outgrew it, then the nitrate would get really high really fast - obviously). Both fish were living in the tank together until only a couple weeks ago. While they were still together, the issues in this thread came up. I treated with Prazi for flukes while I got the 20gal up and cycling. Ryukin Girl gave me a 3 week Prazi dosing pattern to follow, and between the 2nd and 3rd week I moved Levi to the other tank. Midas has had the 10gal to himself since then. The fluke issues seem to be better now. Midas developed a red streak on one of his fins (you can see it in the pic below) during the whole flukes ordeal. It's been two or three weeks since all of that, and the two fish have been acting perfectly healthy in their individual tanks, other than the fact that the red streaks (and in Levi's case, the pop-eye) haven't been clearing up (also not getting worse, though). I thought maybe it was a secondary infection lingering from the flukes and the back of the Maracyn II box sounded like it would clear it up.

Midas has a damaged right gill, which I think is fluke related, because prior to flukes, it was fine. Since he's still not improving from whatever the Maracyn did to him, could it be that the Maracyn caused further gill damage? If it did and the damage is permanent, then his quality of life is basically shot, because he's in a lot of distress right now. He's still interested in food, which I suppose is good... or he might have just been excited that I came near the tank. I didn't have time this morning to wait and watch him eat, and it always takes him a few minutes to stop wiggling excitedly and actually seek out the food pellets themselves.

In the picture you can see what his gill looks like and the red streak on his fin (which is all the streaking he has). This picture was taken during the flukes issues, but he looks the same now, just more distressed.

P9110157.jpg

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So Midas has shown no improvement... he's still sitting on the bottom constantly (unless he thinks he's getting fed) and gasping at the same speed. I'm almost certain he is unable to open his mouth. He tries to eat but he can't. His gasping doesn't include any visible mouth-opening... I guess he's inhaling and exhaling completely through his gill openings. Under his chin, where the gill flaps meet, looks swollen. Inside his gills are red and inflamed looking.

Is there anything I can do for him?

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Is he eating at all?

I would be very wary of using water meds with a fish that has impaired gills like this. It may be the last straw since success of water meds depends on the vascular system, kidney and gills being able to absorb medication, transfer gases and expel wastes adequately.

Is your pH stable? Did you find an alternative like coral for keeping that stable.

I would make sure his water is perfect daily with massive amounts of oxygen (he definitely needs more with impaired gills) and feed him some medicated food if you can. Jungle does one called anti-bacterial and this is contains an anti inflammatory antibiotic called sulfa which should help his gills function better.

If he wont eat at all you can try adding 0.1% salt to help perk up his appetite.

Are there any red spots or broken skin, is the redness confined to his tail only?

If he is not eating at all and your water and pH in the tank is stable and ammonia free perhaps you could try triple sulfa. Its a different antibiotic to Maracyn 2 and easier to use. It seems to be gentler in many cases on fish with extreme redness. That would be what i would use I think if he wasnt eating as another option.

Do you have lots of bubbles all round him and splashing the surface? This stops anaerobic bacteria proliferating and eases fish stress.

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He's not eating. He wants to, but he can't get his mouth open to eat the food. He was bumping the food with his nose for a brief spell, but tired quickly and gave up. He came back for another shot later and had no better luck. I'm not sure if it's because of swelling or what.

Yeah, my pH is stable.

I've already got tons of bubbles in there because of his gills. His left gill is much better than his right but neither is perfect.

No red spots or broken skin... only thready red veins in his tail/fins. Well, and his gills are red and inflamed if you look up into them (which is easy because they gape open real big... it's kinda freaky because it looks like he has a big hole gaping in the side of his head).

Before I spend money+shipping and make him wait several days for TriSulfa to get here... if the infection clears up... what do you think his chances are of him regaining any gill function? It's gotten to the point that I feel it will be cruel to keep him alive if he's going to have to gasp like this every second of the rest of his life. That's assuming he ever gets his mouth to work again. I'm perfectly willing to try it, but it really just seems like prolonging his suffering at this point :cry1

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Is it possible we could have a picture of your fish in his tank as of now? It would really help.

Is his mouth swollen with fungus or an ulcer? I really would like to see the gills and how bad this gill damage is too :(

I am still anxious about your pH as baking soda is so tricky to maintain stability and tap pH of 6.5 is so low. Have you got the cycle back or are you still getting ammonia spikes? I have seen all these symptoms in fish burned from ammonia and many fish have healed when the water is amm free. The meds may have wiped out your remaining good bacteria. What are your readings now for ammonia and nitrite?

Fish with damaged gills can live fine but they are forever going to be more sensitive to water quality and cannot really take water medication which can burn damaged gills.

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