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Muffin'S Side Has Erupted


hpsauce

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I posted this in with his pictures but Sarah (Ryukingirl) advised putting it here incase anyone had any help to offer.

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0ppm

[*]Nitrite Level? 0ppm

[*]Nitrate level? 5ppm

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.8

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drop

[*]Water temperature? 20C

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 80 litres QT tank, has established filters from main tank

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s) eheim aquball and fluval 1 internals, and airstone

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 50% weekly

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? has been on medigold for two weeks since I got him

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? only had ill fish 2 week

[*]Any medications added to the tank? tank has Myxazin added to water and I am building up to 0.2 % salt

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? He arrived with an open wound on his right side which I treated with tea tree and was nearly cleared up after two weeks. Yesterday I came home to find his side had erupted with his scales sticking out and red raw flesh showing under as well as being very swollen

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? He is swimming around ok, eating ok today and had no clamped fins.

I got back from helping at the kennels to find his side all swollen and the scales raised and infected looking underneath :(

I don't know what has happened, whether this is what happened to cause the ulcer last time but it looks really nasty and worse than in the pictures although you can see how swollen it is in the second one compared to his other sde.

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I have started dosing his tank with Myxazin, as well as dabbing it on his wound and started adding salt that I will build up to 0.2%

Edited by hpsauce
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Did it start out with a white bump under the scale then it blew out.? I had that years ago, dont know what it is called off the top of my head, but what I did was use Maracyn2 and salt treatment. But to make sure i would definitely start with salt right now. i will look more into it since its been a while since I dealt with this hun, what to make sure :)

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Thanks Koko

There was no white lump, but that could have been how he got the open sore/ulcer he had when I first got him. It hasn't come straight up, it has sort of pushed out sideways sad.gif it isn't in the centre of the swelling but seems to have pushed the scales up and you can see in behind the edges of the scales where it has pushed it up and the flesh underneath is all inflamed looking. It might just be me being optomistic but it seems more pink underneath than red today although the swelling hasn't decreased.

I have salted the tank up to 0.1% but not sure whether to increase it to 0.2%? I have also been adding and dabbing Myxazin as it did such a good job on Tomsk.

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Here is a video of him today, not looking better and the swelling looks worse on his right side and he seems to be getting the same on his left side sad.gif

th_CIMG0405.jpg

Edited by hpsauce
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What is myoxin?

Personally I would do a large water change, get what ever is in the tank out...salt to .3% I would dab each eruption with one single swipe of hp. To swipe a second time kills the healthy tissues that are regenerating.

I am not the medicine queen....but I would def get that salt up!!! At .3% it will jumpstart the healing, kill bacteria, but i would think Jungle Antibac or MMS would be a really good idea because it is obviously coming from the inside out!

Koko suggested the marycyn2..... you can do all 3 together. Get the salt up first and see how he does!!!!! We can move forward from there!

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Thanks for your advice Newbiefishgirl but I am now rather confused unsure.gif

What is myoxin?

I am not the medicine queen....but I would def get that salt up!!! At .3% it will jumpstart the healing, kill bacteria, but i would think Jungle Antibac or MMS would be a really good idea because it is obviously coming from the inside out!

Koko suggested the marycyn2..... you can do all 3 together. Get the salt up first and see how he does!!!!! We can move forward from there!

Myxazin is a UK treatment for bacterial infections.

I can't get Jungle Antibac in the UK and I'm not sure what MMS is?

Also Trinkets contraindications says

"Tetracyline antibiotics in the water should not be used with salt or in high gH.

Salt and high gH makes them ineffective because tetracyline binds with calcium and magnesium making them inactive.

They are ineffective in high pH/over 7.5.

Tetracylines should be used alone and not mixed with any other meds (except in med food and in this combo*)."

Marycyn2 is a tetracyline so surely I shouldn't be using that with salt or anything else as well as my Ph being to high to use it anyway sad.gif

I am on the last day of the Myxazin treatment so maybe I will up the salt once I have put the carbon in the filter as I personlly don't like blitzing my fish with to many things at once.

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Since he has only been with you a few weeks, I would say he may have some parasites. New fish often do. Parasites like chilo or costia especially can get right in under the slimecoat and pull up the scales like this in sort of tattered looking clumps - the area also gets inflamed or infected. I think 0.3% salt is probably the next best step for Muffin as it kills so many of these parasites and their life cycles.

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Thanks Trinket

He is looking worse today sad.gif

He now has a white solid looking lump showing through on his worse side. Although it looks like it in the pictures there is no fungus around the wound.

Muffin17thSept2.jpg

Muffin17thSept1.jpg

And this is his other side which hardly showed a few days ago

Muffin17thSept.jpg

I have removed the treatment so will just upt he salt alittle and see how he does, fingers crossed.

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I have never seen something that bad looking hun.....it looks as though its coming from the inside of the fish, the other thing I noticed is that there is another ouch on the cheek under the eye/ chin area.... i almost think it might be Tumors...dont know.

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Yeah he does look a right mess Koko but is still acting as it nothing is wrong and eating like a pig. The patch under is chin is not swollen just a bit pink and hasn't really got any worse unlike the other patches.

I have emailed a supplier today who some of my fish came from who has a lot of expereince and wealth of knowledge and he thinks it is a bad infection and will probably get worse before it bursts and starts to get better. On the up side he said he had seen worse that had recovered so fingers crossed as it doesn't seem to be bothering him that he will pull through.

I am away at the weekend so I will be worrying how he is doing while I am gone and hoping he makes it till I get back ill.gif

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How is he looking on return hp?

Are the areas expanding? And is he still behaving normally? Are his gills looking pale?

The sores are not producing pus are they? To me that rules out the typical systemic type of bacterial infection we see a lot of where the fish excretes the ingested microorganisms via the skin and then the sore areas heal up if the water turn over and removal of shedded matter is efficient. These sores on your fish remind me more of epidermal attacking virus or a microsporidian intracellular parasite that produces pseudotumors- the white lesions below.

I would watch closely the chin area koko spotted where another sore is forming. In the thyroid area growths can prevent a fish from eating. The side areas are not so serious a position for growths by comparison.

With any breaks in the epithelium/slimecoat the fish will be at risk for anemia, farther infection and balance issues caused by a disruption in the electrolyte balance and gas exchange process. Perfect water as you are doing goes a long way to eleviate this and may be the reason your fish is coping so well.

I would also shade this fish from strong light especially sides where the sores are to prevent a kind of sunburn type delay in healing of muscle tissue.

Salt at 0.3% slowly.

Be careful with topical applications. If you have Richard Hess' book "Fancy Goldfish" page 43 (Body Sores) describes how we have to be cautious about swabbing body sores and the different stages of healing that are delayed by second and third aplications. The color of the wound must go through the red>blue> white healing stages and repeat applications put the wound back to start position and carry the risk of toxic shock syndrome.

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The pictures were taken in a tiny tank of maybe 1 litre as Muffin won't show me his bad side in his QT tank.

Thanks for all the info Trinket.

I have got back from a weekend away expecting Muffin to have perished while I was gone but he is still swimming around as if nothing is wrong icon_eek.gif and eating like a pig.

His wounds don't look that much worse but aren't any better either apart from the one under his chin which is hardly pink at all now and looks much better.The bad side seems alittle redder around the edge and white in the middle but not any larger or more swollen than before I left.

I only put the light on when I check on him other than that he is just getting a bit of sunlight from the window.

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Here is how he looks today

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He is still a real mess but still swimming around and eating like a pig so I am still hopeful especially as the white in the middle has gone.

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That is one bad sore hun. Im wondering if Peroxide cleaning would help to keep germs out hun.. Im just thinking here...

but being so close to the gills might not be good....

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What about melafix with the salt koko? I know it looks much more serious than a melafix cure issue but the thing is it does look to me like this fish is coping very well and therefore has a very strong immunity. After all the chin sore did not erupt and present after looking like it might.

PLUS there are no new sores PLUS this one looks to me not worse and possibly slightly better. He is also eating well and behaving normally. I think the occasional topical application (once a week only) plus salt plus melafix or mela/pimafix mix might be good here...

He is eating so well, you can use that to help him by feeding new food (higher vitamin content) and lots of variety including protein like krill, shrimp etc.

If it is an internal parasite at work more sores will most certainly erupt. For now, they have not..

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Thanks for the advice guys.

I still can't believe it doesn't seem to be affecting him blink.gif the pictures don't really show it that well but the hole in his side is MASSIVELY DEEP ill.gif Every day I expect to go in and either find him at least bottom sitting if not dead but he is busy as ever.

It does seem like the sore on his right side has now popped so I am hoping it will start to heal up again. The sore on the other side is the same as in the previous picture from nearly 5 days ago which is good so I am not sure if that will burst or just go down as the infection clears up. Under his chin is now the same colour as his tummy a warm yellow shade banana.gif .

He is still a very greedy boy and as I am doing daily partial water changes he is getting three meals a day to ensure he keeps his strength up Scoff.gif He is always swims down the end of the tank I feed him at when I go in the room and even when I just peep around the door he is always moving about like nothing is wrong, he is a real trooper.

He is presently in 0.3% salt and I have been adding tea tree oil (active ingredient in melafix) and pimafix each evening for the last two days to encourage healing and hold any fungus at bay.

It does seem amazing what some goldfish will recover from, after Tomsk with his pectoral fin injury and how fast that has healed I do hold out hope for Muffin blush.gif

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There you go!! All credit to you! So much of this energy and 'not getting worse' business has to do with your care. You are doing a fantastic job. Keeping his water good and feeding 3 times a day. These are great measures for giving him the chance to heal himself, the very best.

:thumbs:

Keep us updated in case we need to talk through some other options but for now what you are doing with the salt and tea tree oil sounds right.

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Wow poor muffin!! I've never seen anything quite that bad either. It looks like almost all the muscle is gone in that one spot, or split open, it's hard to tell. It certainly sounds like you are doing everything you can and it's a great sign that he's still so active and hungry. Please keep us posted!

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It is not looking good for Muffin icon_cry.gif

He didn't eat his food so I have cleaned it out and tried him with some defrosted brine shrimp. He puts them in his mouth, looks like he is chewing but them spits them back out whole icon_sad.gif

And his dorsel fin is not really up anymore, it isn't clamped but is sort of flopped over icon_sad.gif

It maybe that the infection has got into his internal organs and it is game over icon_cry.gif but as he is still swimming I won't give up on him yet eusa_pray.gif

I am going to try him on some of my homemade gel food incase that can tempt him to eat.

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Oh no I hope Muffin pulls through especially after all your love, care and attention! :wub:

When I first saw the pictures of Muffin I couldn't believe how well he was doing, you are doing a great job being a fishy nurse! :goodjob

I've got my fingers crossed!

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It is totally my fault he has taken a turn for the worse icon_evil.gif

As I have been changing some of his water every day on Tim's advice to keep the nasties count in the water down I haven't checked the water since Monday, I did it earlier and he is in 0.5 ppm of ammonia icon_pale.gif

As if fighting off the infection isn't hard enough on him I have been giving him ammonia poisioning to fight against as well icon_cry.gif

I have gradually changed 10 litres of water every hour so as not to stress him to much but I feel terrible, if I loose him becasue of a newbie mistake like that I will be so gutted as he has been through so much and faught so hard I feel I have let him down not doing my bit eusa_wall.gif

His ammonia is now zero and I am going to wait till tomorrow to feed him to give him time to perk up and want to eat.

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Good idea. Im sorry to hear of the turnabout. A days fast hopefully will peak his appetite and you can get something nutritious in to him. Are you keeping adding back salt with the water changes? It is a fact that ammonia excretion can increase when the fish is sick or stressed.

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Thanks guys

I got up a bit early this morning to test the water although I think OH would kill me if I had actually needed to do one before 5am icon_redface.gif

Luckily the ammonia is still 0ppm so I didn't have to disturb OH.

Muffin seems a bit better this morning and his dorsel fin has gone back up icon_cheers.gif and the edge of the wound seems more pink than red but that might just be because I didn't turn the tank light on so it was different light.

I resisted the urge to try him on some food and will have to wait till I get home tonight to see if he is eating eusa_pray.gif

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