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gab

Goldfish Swollen And Floating On One Side

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gab- how is your fish doing?

Did you inject yet with the dosage Pixiefish suggests?

Hi

Thanks for checking--it's been a long weekend. Yes, Blacklip has had three Baytril injections (0.1cc for her since she's about 6 inches) so far. The vet and I did the first two together and I did the third one at home (my husband held Blacklip over her tank while I injected)--it was a little unnerving, but it went okay. Blacklip is such a good patient. There hasn't been much change though, she's still on her side. She is a little more active and seems to be able to keep more food down than before. Her poop is a little bigger, also. I guess she's processing the food she's able to swallow. I'm hoping that's a good sign. I'll keep trying(two more injections to go) and hope for the best. Should I keep the epsom salts in her tank? I've done another water change and didn't add any more epsom salts back this time. I'll keep you posted--if you think of anything else I should be doing, please let me know. Thanks again.

gab

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Epsom is a diuretic and may help a little with bloat and releasing fluids. I should wait till the injections are all done. What are you feeding meanwhile? And how is your nitrate reading?

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Epsom is a diuretic and may help a little with bloat and releasing fluids. I should wait till the injections are all done. What are you feeding meanwhile? And how is your nitrate reading?

I'll hold off on the epsom. She's eating Tetrafin sinking mini sticks mostly right now. They are really small and become "mushy" fairly quickly. She seems to be able to handle small,"mushy" food better right now. I also give her a small bit of ProGold, but only after it has mostly dissolved and I can pipette some of it mixed with water close to her mouth. I've tried a few tiny pieces of peas, but she can't seem to get those to go down. I've been really watching her when she eats--she gets the food in her mouth and works and works to get it down. Her mouth is constantly opening and closing and I can see the food in there. She really wants to eat--she practically sucks my fingers off trying to get the food. She acts like she has a hard time swallowing. She reminds me of someone who is trying to swallow a pill and just can't quite do it. I can't see anything that seems to be blocking the way and she does get some of it down. Usually while I feed her, I hold her upright with one hand so I can watch her more closely and put food close to her mouth with the other hand. If you look at her from the top, she doesn't really look all that swollen and she is straight. Her left side is definitely a little bigger than the right, but not horribly. When she's laying on the bottom, she looks a whole lot worse. I think it's because her head is on the bottom and so is her tail, but she curves up in the middle (her left side is up). When she tries to swim, she can get a short ways up, but as soon as she stops, her head touches the bottom first, then her tail comes down and hits the bottom. I don't know if this is because her head and tail are heavier than her body or what. It's really strange. She even scoots along the bottom on her side looking for food and picking it up if she finds some. Still, sometimes she swallows it and sometimes she doesn't. Sorry if I'm too wordy, I'm hoping these observations may give you some more ideas as to what may be wrong with her.

As for her water quality-it's still okay. Nitrates have been between 5 and 10. I'm changing her water twice per week to keep it as clean as possible while she's sick. Let me know if you have any other thoughts. I really appreciate you "fish people" trying to help. My fish are part of my family (as crazy as that sounds) and I do what I can to help them when they're sick. Thanks again and I'll keep trying.

gab

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A nine year old fish with a history of floaty issues leading to internal swelling suggests maybe something has gone awry with the organs inside her :( What can happen is ;(always preceded by repeated bouts of floatiness)the air sacs lose their ability to exchange vascular gases and the fish swells with toxins, sometimes causing internal infection and tumors and other times just damaging vital organs like the kidney and swim bladder responsible for balance.

The very red fins show her immunity is down and she is very stressed by whatever this is. Lack of appetite, inability to 'swallow' can be connected to ulcers and tumors in the throat or it could be part of the general malfunction and possible resulting inflammation of the basic digestive process.

If it is an infection/tumors Baytril may or not work depending on the bacteria present.

It was def. worth the effort.

Sometimes the tube connecting the airsacs, the physostome, gets blocked, temporarily or permanently. In a worst case scenario water can enter and fill the swimbladder causing total malfunction. The fish will flipover. This is true "swimbladder disease". One way to check if this has happened is to lift the fish to the surface and estimate if she feels "unusually" heavy.....full of water...trust me you will 'know'.

If, instead, she feels mushy around the abdomen, it may be a bacterial infection that needs a different antibiotic.

The inflammation is bad and is probably internal- Metronidazole can be very good at calming inflammatory infection.

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A nine year old fish with a history of floaty issues leading to internal swelling suggests maybe something has gone awry with the organs inside her :( What can happen is ;(always preceded by repeated bouts of floatiness)the air sacs lose their ability to exchange vascular gases and the fish swells with toxins, sometimes causing internal infection and tumors and other times just damaging vital organs like the kidney and swim bladder responsible for balance.

The very red fins show her immunity is down and she is very stressed by whatever this is. Lack of appetite, inability to 'swallow' can be connected to ulcers and tumors in the throat or it could be part of the general malfunction and possible resulting inflammation of the basic digestive process.

If it is an infection/tumors Baytril may or not work depending on the bacteria present.

It was def. worth the effort.

Sometimes the tube connecting the airsacs, the physostome, gets blocked, temporarily or permanently. In a worst case scenario water can enter and fill the swimbladder causing total malfunction. The fish will flipover. This is true "swimbladder disease". One way to check if this has happened is to lift the fish to the surface and estimate if she feels "unusually" heavy.....full of water...trust me you will 'know'.

If, instead, she feels mushy around the abdomen, it may be a bacterial infection that needs a different antibiotic.

The inflammation is bad and is probably internal- Metronidazole can be very good at calming inflammatory infection.

I'm not sure that she feels unusually heavy when I pick her up and she may feel a little mushy in the abdominal area. Blacklip had her last Baytril injection on Thursday and there is still no change. You suggested metronidazole--is this an anti-parasite medicine? How does it help with inflammation? I'm willing to try it if that's what you think. I can find it as Parasite Clear made by Jungle Labs--it also contains praziquantel and acriflavine( doesn't say how much, but praziquantel is listed as the first ingredient, then metronidazole, then acriflavin). Jungle Labs also makes a medicated anti-parasite fish food with 1% metronidazole,0.5% praziquantel, and 0.4 levamisole. It's also available as General Cure by APl Aquarium pharmaceuticals--250mg metronidazole and 75 mg praziquantel. I'm thinking of gettine the APl medicine and the medicated food. What do you think? Do you know anything about any of these brands? I realize it's hard to diagnose fish diseases and I usually try not to use too many medications, but in her case, I don't think it will hurt. Unfortunately, it's sometimes trial and error since we don't really know what is wrong with her. As long as she is still trying, so will I. Thanks again.

gab

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I'm sorry about the delay in replying to you here. Have you added any meds to the water? Is your fish still hanging in there and how is she? In answer to the Q, yes I am familiar with all the meds you name.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic. It is one like sulfa that is especially good at reducing inflammation. It works well in food. Absorption is less effective in the water.

Since this seems to be bacterial I would personally try an antibiotic food. The antiparasite food by Jungle contains 2 meds you dont really need plus the more meds you use the harder her immune response will have to bounce back. Jungles antibacterial food contains nitrafurazone and a strong sulfa (2.3%)which may be a good combo here. You can use that with metro in the water. Seachem does a 100% Metro water med and Aquameds does Metro + which has some salt in too.

Let us know how things are when you can.

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I'm sorry about the delay in replying to you here. Have you added any meds to the water? Is your fish still hanging in there and how is she? In answer to the Q, yes I am familiar with all the meds you name.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic. It is one like sulfa that is especially good at reducing inflammation. It works well in food. Absorption is less effective in the water.

Since this seems to be bacterial I would personally try an antibiotic food. The antiparasite food by Jungle contains 2 meds you dont really need plus the more meds you use the harder her immune response will have to bounce back. Jungles antibacterial food contains nitrafurazone and a strong sulfa (2.3%)which may be a good combo here. You can use that with metro in the water. Seachem does a 100% Metro water med and Aquameds does Metro + which has some salt in too.

Let us know how things are when you can.

Hi again

Blacklip is about the same-still on her right side (although she does occasionally turn over to the other side for a short while) on the bottom and tries to eat all the food I give her. She still spits some of it out, but she is pooping, so I guess she's getting some of it through. No, I haven't added any meds to her water yet-I'm having trouble finding metronidazole. No pet stores in my area carry it except as an anti-parasite med containing other stuff she doesn't need. I may be able to get some by Friday from a local petstore that has ordered it for me. I think it's called Metro+ by Aquarium Solutions--it may be the same as the Aquameds you mentioned. It has the metro plus some sodium chloride, synthetic polymers and a chelating agent. Does this sound ok?

I did start her on the Jungle Labs antibacterial food Sunday evening, hopefully that will tide her over until I get the metro. Should I get the epsoms out of her water before I start the metro? I'll continue to feed her the medicated food, too. Thanks again.

gab

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sorry yes thats the one I was thinking of. Aquarium Solutions' Metro +.

I think you are doing what you can. Good she is at least getting some of the Jungle through :)

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sorry yes thats the one I was thinking of. Aquarium Solutions' Metro +.

I think you are doing what you can. Good she is at least getting some of the Jungle through :)

Blacklip has had four doses of Metro+ and there is still not much improvement. She is still on her side-mostly her right,but occasionally her left. It does seem that she is keeping more food in than before. She is still always ready to eat and just about sucks my fingers off to get the food. Sometimes she even stands on her tail to grab the food. She is quite active for a sick fish. The ammonia in her quarantine tank keeps creeping up--I have been changing it twice/day to keep it below 0.5. The medicine says to do a complete or partial water change before retreatment every 24 hours, so I do a large change (probably 75%or more) each evening before medicating and a very small change in the morning to keep the ammonia down. The Metro also says to treat 5-7 days, but if no improvement after 3 to try something else. Should I do a few more doses or can you think of anything else to try? She can have the Jungle Labs medicated food for a few more days, too. It says 7-10 days and she's been eating it exclusively for 8 days. Maybe I should try one of Goldfish Connection's medicated food--Medigold or Metromeds? I could try another medicine if you can think of any others that may help. I may put her back in her regular tank for a few days between medicines and hopefully I can get the ammonia in her quarantine tank to go down. She still has the will to survive, so I'll keep working with her. Let me know what you think.

gab

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I think you could try another med food. Water meds are so tricky in an uncycled tank (and in a cycled one too since you risk losing bbs and the cycle crashing). Its a question of shot gun antibiotics now I guess :( It isnt the best route but looks like the only option left here. Metromeds (G.C) has a slightly better combo IMHO than Medigold.

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I think you could try another med food. Water meds are so tricky in an uncycled tank (and in a cycled one too since you risk losing bbs and the cycle crashing). Its a question of shot gun antibiotics now I guess :( It isnt the best route but looks like the only option left here. Metromeds (G.C) has a slightly better combo IMHO than Medigold.

I've ordered the Metromeds so it should be here in a few days. I figure she needs to be on normal food for a few days to clear the Jungle Labs antibacterial food out of her system anyway before trying something new. She's back in her 55 gallon with her friends, too. The water quality is much better than her quarantine tank and she has someone to "talk" to. Her buddy, Streak has been hanging out by her. I'll leave her quarantine tank up and running to cycle some more so if I try something else, the water quality may be better. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again for all your suggestions.

gab

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popping in just to be a bit supportive more than anything. :heart

Is there anyway with the meds in the water or just in the qt period you can do a 100% water change daily...even if it is 2 50% back to back? I find this very useful in QT tanks. Granted i have an extra bathroom where i keep the fish qt in a rubber maid in the tub! But I do have water issues and have to check water out of tap each time i change water.

Is there any chance you could re post all your parameters just for an update, perhaps a second glance. Every test you have from ammonia, ph nitrite, nitrate, kh gh...what ever you have we will take!!!! :)

How is the streaking in the tail?

Have we tried only epsom...or aquarium too? If she is upside down sometimes the aquarium salt helps with the healing I have found..... :heart

Just my two cents though.

Good luck!!! gudluksn.gif

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popping in just to be a bit supportive more than anything. :heart

Is there anyway with the meds in the water or just in the qt period you can do a 100% water change daily...even if it is 2 50% back to back? I find this very useful in QT tanks. Granted i have an extra bathroom where i keep the fish qt in a rubber maid in the tub! But I do have water issues and have to check water out of tap each time i change water.

Is there any chance you could re post all your parameters just for an update, perhaps a second glance. Every test you have from ammonia, ph nitrite, nitrate, kh gh...what ever you have we will take!!!! :)

How is the streaking in the tail?

Have we tried only epsom...or aquarium too? If she is upside down sometimes the aquarium salt helps with the healing I have found..... :heart

Just my two cents though.

Good luck!!! gudluksn.gif

Thanks for the support. This is getting very frustrating-not being able to help my poor fish. She gets so excited when she knows it's feeding time even though she has trouble eating and can't sit up like a normal fish. She'll swim across the tank and almost looks normal until she stops and just drops to the bottom and flops over on her side. Anyway, in the quarantine tank while I was adding the metro to the water, I was doing big water changes daily to keep the ammonia down. I did a small change in the morning before work(about 10% or so) and then a big change in the evening before adding the next dose. The evening water change was probably about as close to 100% I could get without removing the fish from the tank. I drained it down about 75%, then added new water, then drained and filled for a while.

The water coming from the tap was about the same temperature as her water(around 80F), no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates; pH around 7.8, GH around 150 (measured using a strip), KH around 150 (again measured using a strip). No chloramines as I have well water--passed through a carbon filter before going to the aquarium. Her qt tank parameters were about the same except for the ammonia creeping up 0.5 to 1.0. Her normal 55 gallon tank parameters again are the same as the tap water except the nitrates are 5-10. I guess changing the 55 gallon twice/week has kept the nitrates down--they often usually get up to 20 or so. As far as I can tell, the water quality is okay in the 55 gallon tank. The qt tank is still cycling--ammonia is around 0.5 and some nitrites are detectable (Blacklip is back in the 55 gallon), so I'm just letting the qt tank do its thing until she goes back in if necessary. I change the qt tank water when I change the 55 gallon (Sunday and Thursday--my days off work).

The streaking in the tail hasn't changed. As I said in an earlier post, she has always had red streaks in her tail--not quite as prominent, though and not at the base of her tail like it is now. The other goldfish, Streak, has also always had red streaks in his(her) tail,although he doesn't have red at the base of the tail.

Lastly, I haven't tried aquarium salt at all--I thought I had read somewhere a while back, that aquarium salt can make matters worse if a fish is swelling up--although it may have been referring more to dropsy than what Blacklip's problem may be. I suppose I could try some if nothing happens soon. Let me know if you think of anything else. We're keeping our fingers and fins crossed that something will help.

Thanks again.

gab

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If anyone is still out there, Blacklip is still the same. She has been on the Metromed food for 4 days now. I'm going on vacation tomorrow, so she will stay on the Metromed while I'm gone. I'm hoping a miracle will occur and maybe she will be better when I get back. She is still keeping most of her food in, although she can only eat a little softened food at a time. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I'll let you know in a week.

gab

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I hope someone is still looking at my posts. I'm back from vacation and Blacklip is still the same. She's been on the Metro-med for two weeks now and no improvement. I'm going to switch her back to her regular food tomorrow. Does anyone have any other ideas? She is still fairly active for a sick fish and gets so excited when it's time to eat, even thought she still has trouble swallowing. She is still on her side, but now she switches from one side to the other. Sometimes she's on her right side and sometimes she's on her left side. Does that mean anything? Anyway, I don't know what to do at this point. I'm hoping someone will have some new ideas. I do realize that she may be incurable, but I keep hoping that's not the case and I'll find something to help her. She doesn't seem to appear to be suffering although I imagine it's rather boring laying on your side all the time. Again, if anyone has any other thoughts, please let me know. I hope to hear from someone soon. Thanks again.

gab

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So sorry there is no improvement here :(

Neither med food showed any improvement in her at all? Did the tank get cycled completely?

Did you try the salt? Is there any chance of a pic of her now, just to see how bad her slimecoat is and if this has become a damaged organ/airsac issue keeping her down on one alternating side.

If not, a description of any redspots, swelling.. anything else?

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So sorry there is no improvement here :(

Neither med food showed any improvement in her at all? Did the tank get cycled completely?

Did you try the salt? Is there any chance of a pic of her now, just to see how bad her slimecoat is and if this has become a damaged organ/airsac issue keeping her down on one alternating side.

If not, a description of any redspots, swelling.. anything else?

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to you. Work has been horrible. Anyway, she really hasn't improved (or gotten any worse either) at all. She has been back in the 55 gallon tank with the others (goldfish and two frogs) since she finished the metro plus water treatment. The quarantine tank is still up and running with no fish--I just couldn't keep up with two or three water changes/day to keep the ammonia down. Last time I checked the quarantine tank (couple weeks ago), the ammonia was a little lower and nitrites were coming up. I figured I'd leave it alone and hopefully it would be cycled if I needed to put her back in.

No, I haven't tried the salt. I had read somewhere that salt can make a swollen goldfish worse, so I was afraid to try it (although I think they were talking more about dropsy, but I'm not sure). If you still think salt may help than I would be willing to try.

I finally got some pictures of her today, but I seem to be having trouble sending them to you through photobucket. I emailed them to see if they can figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'll get them to you asap.

Really no other swelling or redspots or anything different. She does seem to be able to eat her regular food easier than the medicated stuff. I don't know if it's the consistency or just tastes better. I still have to soak her food until it's good and mushy for her to swallow it, but she still loves to eat.

gab

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So sorry there is no improvement here :(

Neither med food showed any improvement in her at all? Did the tank get cycled completely?

Did you try the salt? Is there any chance of a pic of her now, just to see how bad her slimecoat is and if this has become a damaged organ/airsac issue keeping her down on one alternating side.

If not, a description of any redspots, swelling.. anything else?

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to you. Work has been horrible. Anyway, she really hasn't improved (or gotten any worse either) at all. She has been back in the 55 gallon tank with the others (goldfish and two frogs) since she finished the metro plus water treatment. The quarantine tank is still up and running with no fish--I just couldn't keep up with two or three water changes/day to keep the ammonia down. Last time I checked the quarantine tank (couple weeks ago), the ammonia was a little lower and nitrites were coming up. I figured I'd leave it alone and hopefully it would be cycled if I needed to put her back in.

No, I haven't tried the salt. I had read somewhere that salt can make a swollen goldfish worse, so I was afraid to try it (although I think they were talking more about dropsy, but I'm not sure). If you still think salt may help than I would be willing to try.

I finally got some pictures of her today, but I seem to be having trouble sending them to you through photobucket. I emailed them to see if they can figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'll get them to you asap.

Really no other swelling or redspots or anything different. She does seem to be able to eat her regular food easier than the medicated stuff. I don't know if it's the consistency or just tastes better. I still have to soak her food until it's good and mushy for her to swallow it, but she still loves to eat.

gab

I contacted photobucket and they had updated their website, so I had to update my computer to send the pictures. I hope this works--I really don't know what I'm doing here.

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Is anyone still out there? I posted some new pictures of Blacklip more than a week ago and have not "heard" anything back. I have also added some salt to her water since I posted the pictures, but still nothing has changed. If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. Otherwise, I guess I'll just have to assume it's a swim bladder issue and there is nothing I can do. I can't bear to put her to sleep as long as she is still active and eating, so I guess she'll just hang out on her side with her friends. She seems relatively happy. Hope to hear from someone soon.

gab

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Poor baby. It seems like you have tried soo much and nothing has worked sad.gif . Was there any improvement with any of the meds?? I would try the salt next for sure. It may well be she is grounded and this is not an easy issue to fix unfortunately. Many of us have had fish that are sinkers and it is no fun at all and a very difficult thing to treat.

Are your water parmas constant and pH/temp still stable?

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Poor baby. It seems like you have tried soo much and nothing has worked sad.gif . Was there any improvement with any of the meds?? I would try the salt next for sure. It may well be she is grounded and this is not an easy issue to fix unfortunately. Many of us have had fish that are sinkers and it is no fun at all and a very difficult thing to treat.

Are your water parmas constant and pH/temp still stable?

Blacklip is getting to be a very expensive goldfish. Oh well, what else can you do but keep trying and hope for the best. Anyway, none of the meds seem to have helped her at all. She's pretty much the same as the day she flipped onto her side about two months ago. She does seem to be much happier back in her reglar tank with her friends,eating normal food. Although normal for her is Tetrafin sinking mini sticks, a few pieces of ProGold, and a few Spirulina Flakes (from Goldfish Connection) mixed together with water added to make it mushy. I think most of the food goes does, although she does still sometimes spit some out as if she has trouble swallowing. But, she will try again a few minutes later. She still gets so excited when it's time to eat--she stands on her tail, scoots along the bottom, or sometimes swim partway across the tank like a normal fish for a few seconds. She even ocassionally sits upright on the bottom for just a few seconds before she flips back over to her side. At least she has her freinds to hang out with.

I have had salt in the tank for about a week or so with no improvement. Each time I change the water, I add back approximately the amount of salt taken out. I'll keep the salt in the tank in case it may eventually do something for her. The other goldfish and frogs don't seem to mind it (I did some research and found that the frogs can tolerate quite a bit of salt).

All water parmas are constant and okay. The temperature is a little lower than before (around 76-78F) since it's colder in the house now, but that should still be fine as far as I know. It runs closer to 80F in the summer.

Let me know if you or anyone else has any other thoughts. Thanks.

gab

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I've posted this once a few days ago, but I haven't heard back, so I'll try again.

Blacklip is getting to be a very expensive goldfish. Oh well, what else can you do but keep trying and hope for the best. Anyway, none of the meds seem to have helped her at all. She's pretty much the same as the day she flipped onto her side about two months ago. She does seem to be much happier back in her reglar tank with her friends,eating normal food. Although normal for her is Tetrafin sinking mini sticks, a few pieces of ProGold, and a few Spirulina Flakes (from Goldfish Connection) mixed together with water added to make it mushy. I think most of the food goes does, although she does still sometimes spit some out as if she has trouble swallowing. But, she will try again a few minutes later. She still gets so excited when it's time to eat--she stands on her tail, scoots along the bottom, or sometimes swim partway across the tank like a normal fish for a few seconds. She even ocassionally sits upright on the bottom for just a few seconds before she flips back over to her side. At least she has her freinds to hang out with.

I have had salt in the tank for about a week or so with no improvement. Each time I change the water, I add back approximately the amount of salt taken out. I'll keep the salt in the tank in case it may eventually do something for her. The other goldfish and frogs don't seem to mind it (I did some research and found that the frogs can tolerate quite a bit of salt).

All water parmas are constant and okay. The temperature is a little lower than before (around 76-78F) since it's colder in the house now, but that should still be fine as far as I know. It runs closer to 80F in the summer.

Let me know if you or anyone else has any other thoughts. Thanks.

gab

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I am going to move this to diagnosis and discussion, more people visit that forum and it doesnt sound like an emergency at this minute. If people have ideas they will post there for you okay?

Meanwhile any updates? Have you still got her salted? Is she eating well? Sunken fish do sometimes have water in their airsacs and this is impossible to correct :( . Your fish maybe also has some distress from her position and inability to swim and this can cause red streaks. Is she getting worse or about the same?

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Hi

I was going to suggest you move me to diagnosis and discussion section soon, anyway. Blacklip is not really an emergency anymore. She is still salted and eating well. Although she still sometimes spits the food out and can only eat small amounts of "mushy" food at a time. She's very active when she eats and will scoot around the bottom of the tank to get food she spits out. It takes awhile to feed her, but she seems to be getting enough to eat. She hasn't gotten any worse (or better). I guess we'll just keep going and see what happens. If anyone has any other thoughts, let me know. I'll keep you updated from time to time. Thanks for trying.

gab

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