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Roano

Bulge On Abdomen

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I am sorry I am not of much help here...but just dropped in to say you are doing gr888 and with all the mod's help...I am sure they will help you figure out a meal plan as well...take a deep breath.. :)

Encouragement always helps! Thank you, you both... we have some poo this morning (thick pea and some spinach) so I suppose that's an improvement over bulgy sides. It doesn't look too hard to pass but his fins are all clamped.

So if I feed two times a day, should I just feed the same amount? (Or increase feeding size at each amount?)

Three years... oh my goodness.

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I would just feed the same amount hun, make it easier for him to digest the food :)

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A big one's coming through... noticed it this afternoon and not too much progress as of tonight. I'm feeding him twice today, and was going to try adding epsom salt to a pea chunk tonight but I did some cleaning a couple of hours ago and my hands still smell soap-ish, and I can't fit the salt grain in there without using my fingers.

I'm trying to post of pic of what's going on but it seems that Photobucket is down for maintainence... what's happening is a tight curl of pea is coming through the vent, and it's the widdest it's ever been, I think, with sort of a tear on the right side... the expansion/tearing isn't just on the bottom of his belly anymore, but it's a little up his side (barely.) I can see the curl so it should be coming out soon. I will try pics again once more before bed but if I can't get them up tonight I'll just post them tomorrow... based on how he's looking tonight around 3 am I'll either try and post pics then or just let things be... I'll see how I'm feeling (it's a long process to get the photos up... I have dial-up so uploading photos isn't the fastest thing in the world.) I'm just sort of sitting back and waiting for now: it has to pass, either way, and hopefully he'll feel better after it does... I don't think there's anything I can do right now, so I'm trying not to think about it so much.

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Here are the latest pics, as of this morning... you can see how the poo is sort of coming out on the side, pushing his vent sideways:

1-1.jpg

2-2.jpg

As always they look worse in real life... if you look hard you might be able to see a little red around the tear... not too bad, but it's there. I can't tell how much progress he made last night... perhaps a little more? Hard to tell, really.

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Oh man this poor guy, his internal organs are working right. So everytime he needs to pass food its curling up on him hun....Im so sorry, try to see if you can make a gel food that is very soft for him and maybe with some epsom salt in it so he can pass he food better :)

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Okay, what else should I put in it? Peas, some epsom (how much???), what else? I've seen some recipies but what other food should I put in it for this fish to make it soft?

I have... carrots, peas, spinach, banana (ripe, and I hear they have too much sugar), lettuce... and unflavored gelatin... it's older (10/03), but I can't get anything else right now, and it seems to still be granulated and looks fine.

I don't want to make too much in case he won't eat it... I haven't fed him anything today yet... what else should I put in?

Trinket, you suggested spirulina wafers... all I could find were algae wafers by Hikari... will these work? Should I grind them up and add them to the gel food?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categ...76_FS21257D.jpg

Ingredients for those:

Fish meal, wheat flour, wheat germ meal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, starch, dried bakery product, dried seaweed meal, brewers' dried yeast, soybean meal, fish oil, krill meal, spirulina, monosodium glutamate (!), garlic, dried A. niger fermentation extract, DL-methionine, astaxanthin, choline chloride (!), vitamin E supplement, l-ascorbyl-2--polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, vitamin A oil, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, disodium phosphat, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, cobalt sulfate, calcium iodate, blue2 (artificial color.)

Recent pics :(

2-3.jpg

3-1.jpg

1-2.jpg

Edited by Roano

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Also, I have tuna and the brine shrimp, but I was thinking more vegetables?

Oh yes, also oranges and dried prunes (?).

Edited by Roano

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I was thinking of modifying Touchofsky's recipe that was pinned under gel food...

1/4 cup frozen peas

1/4 cup cooked spinach and carrots (carrots are the non-baby kind, will be peeled)

Liquify them in a rinsed blender

Dissolve 1 packet of unflavored gelatine into 1/4 cup warm water, microwave until clear, add to veggie mix.

Pour into a rinsed plastic container (okay?) that is lined with saran wrap (does saran wrap have any residue I should worry about?) and chill (in the fridge?)

Cut into serving sizes, remove some and store in fridge, freeze the rest.

How much epsom would I add, and should I just throw that in the blender with the mix?

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Should I not feed him any pea today? I'm hoping someone can confirm my gel food idea... other than peas, I'm not sure what's best for this goldfish.

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I would be careful of carrot with your fish. I think its hard to digest. You can add epsom : one quarter of a level teaspoon maximum to a one cup recipe so if you use two quarter cups make that one eighth of a teaspoon only.

I would also add a teaspoon of crushed garlic or garlic paste and some shrimp( or non oily tuna) for protein. Jump start or probiotics would be really good too and would pack vitamins in. Just make sure to blend them all well and set. I never used saran wrap. Plastic container is fine.

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I would be careful of carrot with your fish. I think its hard to digest.

Yup, and they contain a lot of sugar.

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I don't have any garlic paste or crushed garlic... is garlic powder okay? (It says 'pure garlic powder'.)

I realized I probably don't have a 1/4 cup spinach... so I'll just add what spinach I can and fill the rest with peas, is that okay? So it's pretty much a pea gel food, with epsom, a little garlic (if it's okay to use) and some spinach.

How do you tell if it's non-oily tuna? My tuna ingredients: white tuna, water, vegetable broth (carrots, celery, peas, soybeans), salt, sodium pyrophosphate. Other info: 1/4 cup has 70 calories, 1 gram of fat, 30 mg of cholesteral, 310 mg of sodium, 15 g of protien (no sat. fat, trans fat, carbs, fiber, or sugar.) (Some of these are obvious, I know, but I wanted to put everything because I'm not sure how to tell oily from non oily.)

How much tuna would I add? Could I do 1/4 cup pea, then 1/4 cup tuna/spinach? (Maybe that's too much tuna.) I'm assuming you drain the tuna before adding it to the mix...

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My gel food plan:

1/4 cup thawed peas

1/4 cup spinach (if I have it... will put raw spinach in 1/4 cup, then boil it.)

1/8 cup tuna, drained (about 1/4 of a can)

1 packet of gelatine, dissolved in 1/4 cup warm water

1/8 tsp epsom salt

1 tsp garlic powder

It'll probably take overnight to set, so I'll feed him tommorrow morning... meanwhile, should I feed more pea (haven't fed anything today) or just let him fast a day?

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Okay, I did it! It was quite gelly, and began to set pretty quickly. Can I feed it to him tonight, then? (Again, he hasn't been fed today, and I was thinking of just letting him go for today and feeding him the gel tomorrow.) I guess the test is when I cut it with a knife whether it stays in a cube or not.

Ingredients:

1/4 cup thawed peas

1/4 cup spinach (rinsed raw spinach in 1/4 cup, then boiled it and added to blender.)

1/8 cup tuna, drained

1 packet of gelatine, dissolved in 1/4 cup warm water

less than 1/8 tsp epsom salt (didn't want to overdose, so I was a little cautious and didn't fill to 1/8, because it was just estimation.)

sprinkling of garlic powder

I put the thawed peas (deskinned) into a rinsed blender with the boiled spinach and drained tuna, then added Epsom salt and a sprinkling of garlic powder (because it?s more concentrated than crushed garlic... I also looked up a little about garlic powder... it's just dehydrated garlic flakes, chopped really fine... I figure if there was any additives, they would have to be on the container.)

Then I poured ? of a cup of the water I boiled the spinach in into a container, added the gel food, warmed it and mixed until dissolved.

Then I poured the gel mix into the food and blended it altogether, then poured it into a clean tuppaware container.

I was really surprised about how easy the gel was to dissolve, and how it began to set really quickly (especially after reading on here about how some people have had trouble dissolving the gel.)

Heh, I've never done something like this before... I was very careful about rinsing and rubbing out all the utensils, so it took a little time... By the time I was ready to blend I had to take the blender out to my garage and blending it there so I didn't wake anyone up. :)

Edited by Roano

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Checked on the food and it's set... So should I just feed it to him tomorrow? (It's around 12 am now, so I could begin feeding it to him in the morning.) Or should I feed ASAP? (I just wanted to confirm first that the final gel food recipe looked okay.) He seems about the same; I know he passed some of that poo today, but more came so it looks about the same, hanging around the tank midlevel (better than bottom sitting.)

(Sorry for asking the feeding question again and again... that's just my most immediate concern right now, so I thought it can't hurt to be in there a couple of times!)

I'll check back here later in about 2 and 1/2 to 3 hours. :)

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Jamie, go ahead and feed him! He must be hungry and dinners ready :clapping:Good job! Sounds yummy :ymmu

Feed him a small amount now yes and see if he likes it. Then a little more later..

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Well, he ate it! Seemed a bit surprised with the first mouthful... had to chew on it but went for the second. I only fed him a couple of bites because the gel food floated... and it's not supposed to do that, right? Maybe it's because I cut such tiny pieces? Should I set it in some tank water first?

Anyway, we'll see how he handled that little snack... hopefully it got his appetite piqued and he'll be happy to have some more in the morning. (Tuna and peas... part of this complete breakfast!) I'll give him a normal meal size in the morning (about twice as much as he got tonight... still measuring it in 1/4 of a pea's worth... seems to work as a reference point for me...) and then another for dinner, a total of two meals. Hopefully he'll clear out a little and we can see how the gel food affects him. Meanwhile, I'm feeling inordinately proud of myself for just grinding a couple of things together in the blender! :D Thanks, everyone, for helping me with making the gel food!

He was really excited to eat tonight, as usual (during feeding time all the previously clamped fins go up) so at least his appetite isn't a problem, and it's reassuring to see him hang out in the feeding spot moving around with a purpose! His vent may be slightly better, something kind of tanish is there right now, and while it seems as though it's coming out the same way as the other stuff, it may be putting a little less pressure on him.

Edited by Roano

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You did good hun, now lets see if he can get this out easier....... GOOD Job!! :)

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Thanks, everyone... :D I hope this works... I fed him some (1/4 of a pea's worth) this morning, and then then the same amount just now for dinner. He really does like it (but I guess what's in there for a fish not to like?)

Poo wise, we're about the same... something slowly coming out (probably more pea) and his sides are looking a little bulkier. I'll just keep feeding him to push everything out (twice a day for a total of 1/2 a pea's worth is still alright, right? I can up the feedings later if it doesn't seem like he's having probs with the gel food... Or should I give him more now? ...I'm so terrible at judging food amounts... sheesh... :krazy: )

Tested the primary water params today too, and results were good. (Ammonia looked slightly greenish, but I'm pretty sure that's just the natural evening light I was in... it's 0 under flourescent light and when I tested my tap it had exactly the same readings. But I'll test again tomorrow when it's brighter out.)

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For now just feed him the amount you have been hun, you dont want to push his system :)

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So yesterday evening he passed another short curly poo, and I think that's it of all the previous food, meaning I should be seeing some gel food next time. Anyway, after he got that out, his vent definately looks better, and his sides are a little less bulky. He's still very excited during feeding times, but he's not quite back to his "normal" self yet... he tends to be less active, prefering to hang out about mid-tank level with dorsal somewhat lowered. He keeps his dorsal up all most all of the time when he sees me or is swimming around, but when he's just hanging it seems like it's drooped/clampish. He's not drifting or anything while he's hanging: he's in sort of a calm spot and adjusts/holds steady his position with his pectoral fins. No drifting. It's like he's resting, so maybe he's just recovering. Right now, I'll take it. He's scheduled for a water change tomorrow so we'll see if some fresh water helps (params are fine, though, I already checked) and I'll keep waiting for some gel poo.

He's starting to get the hang of the floating gel food... before he'd kind of chase it around the tank, not quite getting it, and then getting distracted by the bubbles he was making when he was sucking at the surface. :rolleyes: Then the food piece would get stuck on the side of the tank wall and he'd never find it if I didn't move it out for him! I've been minimizing my hand contact with the tank water (as I've got another fish undergoing flukes... even though I wash, rinse, and allow my hands to completely dry thoroughly between tanks, and start with the 'safe' tanks first, I figure the more precautions I take, the better.) Anyway, I'm trying not to touch the water so much so when I drop the little piece of food in I end up pointing to it/gesturing at it so that he can locate it better... that works pretty well.

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Well, things seem to be going pretty good right now... Since the 18th when I last posted I've been feeding the gel food twice a day. His vent seemed to improve but for the 20th and 21st the front of it was red. I'm not sure what caused it: there wasn't any bulge or tear that I could see. In any case, his sides were a bit rounded and he was clamping around the 21st. I added some new water and that didn't seem to make a difference. But from the evening of the 22nd to today, things have been good: not too bulgy, vent looks normal (albeit a little large just from all the difficulty he's been having), color is good, fins are up. It seems like this gel food is working (hopefully: I know how quickly it can change.) Both on the 22nd and today I could see he had some poo coming, but both have been so short and uneventful that I haven't even seen him actually pass them. They're there one minute, and the next time I check, they're not, and his vent looks in good shape. So... hopefully this is the end of our major troubles... we'll see...

So assuming that things continue this way, in terms of long-term feeding... should I stick with this basic gel food and not vary the recipe too much when I need to make more? Since it's got alot of peas and some spinach, should I still supplement it with plain peas at all? It seems like he would get enough veggie nutrition from the gel food. Should I do treats, or is the gel food enough? (I'm hesitant to try something new that is hard to digest or might cause problems...) I want to just feed him this gel food because it seems to work so well, and am hesitant to try other things... but goldfish need variety, right? (I would think variety would be a bigger concern for those using a pellet or flake food as a staple as opposed to gel food, but I don't know.) So I guess my question (after that whole paragraph of blathering) is whether or not this gel food is healthy/nutritious enough to feed him exclusively for a long time. If not, do I just test new things every now and then and see how they work, always keeping this gel food as a staple?

(And all this is assuming the gel food continues to work...)

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I have (another) question about feeding this fish... should I do a day of fasting once a week? Or is that not a good idea?

A little while after I last updated saying things were good, a sharp yet small bulge appeared (lower on the abdomen than before, close to his vent.) This was precedded by fin clamping. He ended up having a largish poo, but fortunately, it was short. The way I'm feeding him now/what I'm feeding him seems to make him have short poos, and while I was hoping he wouldn't have anymore bulges or large poos, this last one was short and passed quickly. It still caused him some discomfort and pressed on his vent, but as far as I could tell, there was no red.

Something a little odd about the poo: it's dark green or brown, definatly not the color of the gel food (light green.) Is this indicative of more internal problems? (Before this, it seemed like whatever I fed him, the poo was the same color.)

He's been "hang-y" today and yesterday (could have something to do with the hot weather we have here), and clampish (more so yesterday.) I did his weekly water change (50%) and checked all the params before, which were all good. Hopefully some fresh water will help, but he'll probably have another large-ish poo coming soon is my guess. I'm thinking this will just be something that we'll probably have to deal with for the rest of his life... but does anyone think a day of fasting a week would be a good idea?

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Most fishkeepers fast their fish once a week yes!! I personally only do that with a floaty or sick fish if needed but many breeders and longterm fishkeepers swear by fasting one day a week for their fish. It may well be good for your fish.

Regarding the poop. Colored poop- green and brown -feeding gelfood/veggies is really not worry poop. White poop is the worry one.

Is the water temp stable? Fish are very sensitive to sudden weather cahnges.

Also. Do you have the top/surface of the water agitated?

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Just went upstairs to check on him and he was bottom-sitting/hanging under the filter intake end of the tank... it was like he wanted to bottom sit, but the current was pushing him a little much for that, so he sort of hovered. At times, his fins seemed clampish (not fully clamped...) When he bottom sat before, it was in the opposite corner where it's calmer. I checked the temp and it's around 82 F. We are having a hot week and I sort of put the line at the beginning of this at 82 degrees... I figure that's okay since it's not too high over 80? But if it got higher I was going to do what I could to bring the temp down.

This bottom-sitting/hovering is recent; he wasn't doing this earlier today, before the water change. But I matched temp, dechlorinated, etc. and the other fish I changed today seems normal...

That's what I thought about the poo. I wasn't too concerned.

The water temp seems stable (this is judging by another tanks temp fluccuation... I have the strip thermometers that stick on the tank wall but not enough to go around... I was going to get some tomorrow when I went into town.) As I said, I think this tank's been stable just because the other tank with the therm hasn't been fluccating too much... today at 82 is the highest the tanks have gotten, and I think it's due to me forgetting to open the windows in my room. But I would guess that so far this week the temp has been around 78-80.)

He has a bubbler and two filters (200 gph total), so it seems agitated enough and I haven't seen him gasping for air or anything. This bottom hanging/sitting is strange... I hope it passes...

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