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Roano

Bulge On Abdomen

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Okay, so if 100% of the epsom salt I need to have is 1 tsp, then 25% of the epsom salt is 1/4 of a teaspoon for the whole 20 gal. (broken down into two 1/8 doses.)

% of salt needed/teaspoon

100% = 1 tsp

50% = 1/2 tsp

25% = 1/4 tsp

Does that sound correct? 1/4 tsp total? (Sorry to ask; I'd just like to confirm that my thinking/reasoning is right...)

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That is absolutely correct :thumbs:

You're just like me. I need to have things clearly confirmed and checked too ;)

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Yeah, I like to have things checked. I'm forever going back over calculations, instructions, etc. to make sure I'm not making any mistakes.

His right side is bulging a little more again, same spot. Not as much as before though, but still no green poo. I think it's coming, but I'm really having to force myself to keep feeding him... I know I'm not overfeeding but it seems like pea should have come out by now!

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Whatever it is is slow in coming... looking up his vent it seems sort of a pale tan (the color of a piece of gravel...) or it could be the pea poo and the shading on it's different. I really don't know but I guess just keep feeding, right? Like I said, he's a little bulgy:

The first two pictures show the bulge on his right side, and in the third you can see what I mean by his stomach curving (as opposed to being straight.) The fifth and sixth picture are attempted shots of his vent... in the sixth you might be able to get an idea of how big it is (in this pic, his anal fin is kind of flipped over so the picture looks a little strange.)

Bumpie.jpg

Bump.jpg

Blurry.jpg

Prettyfish.jpg

Buttshot2.jpg

Vent.jpg

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No progress as of yet since the last post four hours ago... I could do one more feeding tonight but was sort of waiting to see if anything would pass but it hasn't.

Edited by Roano

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Well, now the bulge in his right side is sharp and squarish (like it was originally and in the first few pictures, but sharper and squarer.) The rest of his body is getting rounded from the food build-up. So should I keep feeding thoughout the day? (Sorry to ask again but circumstances seem to me like they've changed a little.) Is there anything to do for him/to him (like touch his side, etc and see if it's hard (I don't know how successful I'd be at this))? I don't know if this is food build up, a rock, etc that's causing this lump but I haven't seen a greeen poo yet so it could easily be food. Looking up his vent it still looks like something tan is coming (but if that were a piece of gravel, then I think it's too close to his vent opening to be the actual bump itself.)

I feel like there's really two ideas of what's causing this: a piece of gravel or a food build-up. (Could also be something internal, I know, but based on what I've seen/haven't seen, I think it's one of the first two options.) Either way do I keep feeding to push it out? Or do I give him more time? (Last night, whatever's coming may have moved down the 'vent shaft' a little but it's tough to say.) Whether it's food or a piece of gravel, the bulge looks really painful and since nothing has really noticably moved, I'm worried about adding pressure on his sides/internal organs.

If it gets really bad today... can I do anything other than wait (and feed or not feed?) Please let me know any ideas anyone has (I'll be back on Koko's in two hours.) I'm really worried that this is going to happen and I won't be able to contact anyone about what to do so any info/ideas anyone can give me now are great.

Edited by Roano

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First of all dont worry. Nothing is going to change too suddenly. There are several things that this could be and none of them are fatal and each will need time to heal or improve.

The stone idea is still one possibility although I had a close look at your pics and feel your fish has a similar bulge on the top of his body and that the bulges may in fact be genetic or to do with my original idea of an organ size/body size incompatibility that can happen in stunted fish..

Its very hard to say at this point for sure what is what. If the bulges were to start oozing or if your fish began to pass weird poop, other possibilities might come along but for now these two seem the leader probabilities..

I do know the epsom is good for both. I do know he has some discomfort with poop. Im kind of watching/waiting here for any farther developments.

Please keep feeding him. He will poop and we need him to.

If he is okay with it and doesnt freak out, yes you could put your hand in slowly and get him used to it and then see if you can cup him and stroke the bulge gently to see if it feels harder than the rest of his side.

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Okay, thanks for the reassurance... I am sort of freaking out a little because of how bad it looks.

I just fed some pea. His fins seem to be up for the most part, I think, and he wasn't bottom-resting this morning, so I guess that's good.

Here are the pictures though:

Bump-1.jpg

bad.jpg

I saw (and see) what you mean about the upper body bulge: the one right off his pectoral fin, right? I really noticed it in the pictures but thought it was just where is pectoral fin meets his body and that it stands out more because he's skinny.

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I think I'll get back on here in an hour (I'm not sure what time it is/will be over there, Trinket), but as of now there's been no new updates, I can't think of anything else to ask because nothing's happened yet, and I'm exhausted from my last few very late nights so I'm going to take a one hour nap... hopefully by then he'll have passed some poo and be back to normal. (Hah, wishful thinking!)

...I'm so worried that somehow he swallowed a medium rock or something and it's going to really rip him when it comes out :( ... but even then I guess there'd be nothing to do. (I don't think he'll let me touch him, although I might try later today.) I'm trying to reassure myself saying that if it's a rock it'll be a small one and isn't causing the whole area around his vent to swell up... I guess if it was a medium/large stone I wouldn't be seeing it come down his vent like this, I'd be seeing something alot large. I just don't know.

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The hand touching thing may take some time. You don't want to stress him by just reaching in and cupping him in your hand.

If he doesn't let you do it today, try to gradually acquaint him with your hand. (haha sorry that just sounded a bit funny).

You can do it slowly day by day if he's very skittish.

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Good idea, thank you. Yes, it may take more than a day. At least the hand feeding has allowed him to equate my hand to food, and when I think about it, I realize he's often around my hands/syphon when I'm gravel vaccumming (he does stay out of the way though). But I don't see him allowing me to touch him as he's still wary of my hands (he's not real skittish about it like a couple of my fish, but nor is he like my ryukin who anytime I stick my hand in the tank -to change water, test approximate temp, whatever- comes up and kisses my hand rather vigorously for food.) He tends to stay out of the way unless my hands are right at the top and he thinks its feeding time or he doesn't feel threatened.

Well, I feel a little better now: maybe it was only the sleep that helped, or maybe it's because it seems like we're a little closer than before to pooing (although it's really difficult to tell when I'm able to look up his vent: it might be the same and this might just be my unbridled optimism talking. :rolleyes: )

Anyway, Trinket said to keep feeding so I guess I'll give him more pea in a little bit.

Edited by Roano

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So much for any tiny bit of optimism on my part:

He doesn't seem too different this afternoon... a little more bulgy just in general perhaps, maybe slightly less squarish. (Still pretty bad: worse than the first pictures I posted of a bulge but perhaps a little better (or at least not worse) than the pictures I posted this morning: still squarish, but the protrusion might be a little less protroud-y.) Alot of it seems to be the angle I look at him from. I?ll post pictures in a little while.

He seems to list a little to his right side (toward the bump.) I also noticed a dark round shape in the middle of his body (you can only see from a certain angle and when a certain light source is on.) I was worried at first that it was a stone when I saw it but then realized it probably wasn?t because a) if it was a stone and was blocking his intestine, he?d have swelling/bulging on the first half of his body, not on the second near the abdomen, and b) because I?ve noticed darkness like this before, and think it?s just organs: I saw it back before I started the malnutrition thread with Trinket, and so it?s been there awhile, and I think it?s just part of his stomach that?s full of pea (or just another organ.) I?ll post pics anyway.

Had a bad thought looking at his vent: what if the darkness I?m seeing (that I think is poo) is really just a shadow? If so, that means were farther away than I thought . But I guess the only thing to do is to just keep feeding him pea, right?

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I'm sort of at a low point right now; there's been no pea poo and I started feeding peas on the 25th... it's been almost three whole days since I fed him pea and haven't seen a pea poo yet. I just feel worn out. I think maybe instead of staying up almost all nihgt, I'll just try and get to bed early (11-12ish, in about 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours) and I'll set my alarm to go off at 2 (in about 7 and 1/2 hours to see if there's any updates here or to give any updates.) I don't know what else to do.

These two of are how bulgy he is (you can't see the squarish-ness, though, not really:)

fat2.jpg

fat.jpg

These others are of the dark spot (don't know how important this is:)

dark.jpg

dark3.jpg

dark2.jpg

Edited by Roano

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Hun, get some rest. Let me have a think too. He is swimming around with good fins, I really do not think he is in pain. This will resolve in time. He may have passed poo and your filter is good and picked it up or its in the gravel?

The epsom must help. If you want I can think what meds might help him in case this is internal ulcers but I have to say systemic internal issues do not usually have the fish up and swimming like this....

Check your water params. Vacuum the gravel and get some rest. Perfect environment, (good water low stress, nutritious food, lots of bubbles), when diagnosis is not 100% clear is the best healer of all time.

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Okay, I'll test the params... but now my pH in another tank jumped so I have to try and figure that out as I'm in the middle of the water change... it's unrelated to this thread but if anyone knows what to do about pH fluccutation, if you could give me any advice that'd be great. I'm in a tight spot with that right now.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...mp;#entry868488

For this fish... I am still feeding peas.

Edited by Roano

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Nevermind about the pH thing... CountryLovah and Cardboardboxpressor came to my rescue for that.

After I get things under control in the other tank, I'll check the params and feed him some pea. You're right, he is swimming (hovers a bit more though, but at least he doesn't bottom hover). His dorsal seems like it's up mostly when he's swimming, when he was chewing on his last pea and a couple of other times it goes down.

Trinket, I think you're right about this being problems from a bad body size/internal organ size; although it could be a piece of gravel too, but if I have to choose something I think it's the first. I think this because based on other problems I had (malnutrition) and then curly poo from the brine shrimp and trouble passing it, and then this whole thing. I never had a problem with his poo until after the malnutrition incident... do you think it's possible that when I overfed him brine shrimp that it pushed the walls of his intestines a little making it possible for the next batch of waste that passed that way to curl because it had room? Or maybe that just happened in his lower intestine/vent "shaft": then he could still have had curly intestines for most of his life but I hadn't noticed because the poo still came out normally, and once the overfeeding happened, it could have pushed at the lower intestine walls, allowing the curly poo from the intestines (that until that point had been confined by the intestines) to move into a space that was a little more open, and then when it reached his vent, because the poo wasn't tight against the lower intestine walls any tight little curls were forced out the vent... I don't know if any of that made sense, just typing some thoughts out... I guess I'm still looking for a "trigger" for when it all went wrong, so I can explain to myself why he was 'fine' before and then not... but I guess I don't really need a trigger: if his internal organs were/are too large/curly, then I might not have noticed any curly poo because I wasn't feeding him enough to see any big/normal poos...

I suppose it's possible that he pooed... he's done it before (really big ones) that I never found... one momment they were resting on the gravel, the next they were gone. I don't think the filters are that good, they're cheap, and I should probably lower the intake tube too... but perhaps the bubbler pushed them up because I couldn'd find those pieces of poo anywhere (and I would have though they'd have gotton partway stuck in the intake tube: smaller things have and those past poos were big ones.) But unless he ate them, which fish don't do, they must have somehow made it inside the filters. So I guess it's possible, but thought I would have found something on my last water change yesterday evening.

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I didn?t end up gravel vacuuming tonight? but I can do a 30% change/vac tomorrow. Here are the params:

pH: 8.1 approx

Ammonia: 0

NI: 0

NA: 0 (I?m guessing from the 30% water change yesterday?)

He?s acting the same as he has all day (except he hasn?t allowed me to look at his vent too well? but just from the brief glimpses I don?t think there?s anything to see there anyway. He tends to hover about mid tank, but swims around. Fins are mostly up so that?s good. (Oh, and I haven?t seen any red on his vent either.) Something I forgot to mention that he sometimes does (more in the past than now) was swim through the bubbler. I don?t know if he liked how the bubbles felt on his skin or if somehow they made him feel better (this was when his vent was red) or not. Thankfully, I haven?t seen him pick through the gravel much.

Here are the most current pictures (this is quite the picture heavy thread? I pity those like myself who have dial-up!)

The first three are all about angles: in one he looks much better than the others, but I took all of these a couple of minutes ago. So the bulge is sort of low? it?s still a little squarish too. In the first, there?s something I hadn?t noticed until I took this picture: a little piece of spinach poo! It?s to the right of the light reflection, on this lower side of his tail. I fed him spinach on the 21st, but have no idea when this showed up? if I hadn?t taken the picture, I would never have known (I still almost missed it anyway.) I looked for other poos but haven?t seen any. In some past pictures I don?t see it (like on the 25th) but it could be somewhere else too or I might not be at the right angle.

poo.jpg

nottoobad.jpg

bulge.jpg

The last you can see the bump on? near that middle fin (don?t know what it?s called, although I think I was incorrectly calling the pectoral earlier) on his right side.

bump-2.jpg

Okay, I?m off to bed? will feed the fish a pea meal first though. I?ll try to return in an hour to check in? I?ll also try to get up like I did this morning to add any new info. Hopefully things?ll be better by then. Probably they won?t.

Edited by Roano

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Also thought I'd mention it takes him longer to chew his little pea chunks, and he usually tips to the right when he's doing it (it's like he's so focused on chewing it that he doesn't quite balance properly.)

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All the same on this end... no new developments. (Behavior wise, too, which is good: still hangs/floats, not bottom-sitting.)

I will come back on in about 4 fours, I think... perhaps something will have happened then.

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He's worse this morning: bottom hovering and clamping. He swims when I come over but he still sort of hovers and clamps. He looks about like he did in the first few pictures I posted on here but bulkier and probably with a sharper 'edge' to the squarish bulge (not as bad as the protrouding bump that was there either yesterday of the 26th.) Like he's a little bulkier than last night's pictures. Seems like it's bulky on his sides, but not bulky enough around his vent. It's like it's stuck. I can still see a pale brown (which could be green) when I look up his vent, but it hasn't progressed... I feel like it's something, not just a shadow, but can't be sure.

I'm hesitant to keep feeding because of the bulkiness and the fact that he's passing nothing... could I do a 1/2 day fast? (Like only feed him 2-3 meals instead of 5?) What happens if he's somehow blocked for good? Last night I saw a dark area around his abdomen where all the bulging is going on, and I think it's food build up.

So I guess today my plan is: do a gravel vac/change of 30% (add back 1/4 tsp of epsom) and possiblely do a 1/2 fast/cut down on his food if you think that's okay... I'm so torn on the food issue because I want to push it out but it doesn't seem to be working.

Edited by Roano

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I think I'll do what I said (but feed the pea in the morning... I notice you're on here sometimes around 5-6 my time so that way if you think the 1/2 day fasting is a bad idea you can tell me and I can make up the other meals this evening.) Otherwise, I'm going to see if I can take the day off: do water changes in my two trouble tanks and then just post if anything bad/good comes up. Get some rest, find something easy to do, I don't know. We'll see if this works or not.

I'm trying to upload recent pictures but my camera card isn't working. This is not good.

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Poo! I see poo! Finally! I went upstairs and checked in on him and was depressed because I was pretty sure he was bottom sitting or at least bottom-hovering (he saw me before I saw him so was just hovering) and I walked over to check on him and he has this big pea green poo starting! It might be tough to pass as it's thick (and there's some dark poo at the base, not sure where that came from) but it's poo, and I've never been so happy to see such a thing! I feel a bit giddy and massively relieved. (I'm sure he feels pretty good too!) I feel like we are going to make it through now, I know he's not done with problems yet but I feel much better and have some hope. I kept saying "Good boy" when I was taking pictures... like he can understand me but oh well!

I checked on him again, and he was bottom sitting; still a bulge in his side but the poo seems to be coming out easy; sort of in little pieces that are the size I've been feeding him, all attatched together! But it seems soft enough for him, not stiff like even some past pea poo and I'm crossing my fingers that it just continues to come.

This picture was taken at 7:30 and I was working on posting it (figured out how to get around my picture problems... inconvenient but it works!)

28th.jpg

And this is him now, at 9! :D

goodboy.jpg

goodboy2.jpg

Here you can see the green pea poo and something else:

nosedive.jpg

A side note that I posted earlier but I took too long doing it so I couldn't put it up:

I bought some frozen gel food-ish stuff from the petstore yesterday... Formula Two by Ocean Nutrition (I think.) I heard it mentioned somewhere on this forum and was thinking about having this as part of his diet when he's feeling better. It's for ominivorous and herbivorous fish, so it has some krill and protein in there, but alot of veggies too.

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oh awesome..I am so glad he passing it out..phewwwww.... :D ..

gr888 job.. :) ..you are taking such good care of him... :) ..keep it up..keep us posted.. :)

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I had a BIG sigh of relief... but now that I've settled down a little, we have had times in the past were I thought everything was done and then a few days later it was worse. (Up, down, up, down, down...) I'm trying to stay cautiously optimistic but... this is the largest amount of poo he's passed in a long time (still going) so that's something.

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Yay, yay whoot for poop!!! :D

I am sooooo pleased, this is so great. I see that it is a good healthy looking poop even if curly. Because it is still curly -it may well be an indication the GI tract is curved as we talked about. When you say bottom sitting, can you say exactly how long he bottom sat? It is possible he was waiting to go and if he is swimming normally after his bathroom activity then perhaps he was just a little uncomfortable from that and is now feeling better?

I do think you should continue to feed him more than you have in the past. Much like you have been the last few days if it is possible. Several small amounts rather than one large amount. You can also now switch to more protein yes, that food sounds maybe like a good choice. Krill is excellent nutrition.

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