Bulge On Abdomen

[Trinket 108]

Yes its good that its soft. Thats why its able to come out. It has to be kept that way.

Its the same color as his food? And the food was Omega the new one? Whatever works..and keeps it coming out and soft.

Wasting disease I suppose could be TB but TB usually presents with ulcers + these symptoms, or wasting disease can mean an internal sort of eating away annorexic kind of disease caused by either a heavy parasite load or a serious aeromonas type bacterial systemic infection

I feel that because he has recovered once, and because his fins look so good and he is eating well, and there are no body sores that this is more to do with internal displaced organ issues.

pH UP from 7.8 to 8.1 is NOT a problem.

[Roano 0]

All right, I will go feed him a little pea now and do the 70% water change (all at once) tommorrow (I can't do it now... it's about 2:30 am.) But it's a relief to hear that about the pH... that'll make things MUCH easier.

Generally the poo is the same color as the food... what I mean by 'generally' is that sometimes the poo seems out of order. For example, I fed him pea, and then a couple days later fed him some new Omega One... but there is brown poo coming out behind the green poo. Lately all I've been seeing is thin brown poo.

I hope the pea doesn't hurt his vent too much... I suppose although the pea poo is big it's not as tightly curled as some of the other poos (I can't remember)... but it seems like poo in even a loose spiral is uncomfortable.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Roano

[Trinket 108]

Roano, if you have time, could you read through this thread of another member whose fish displayed exactly the same symptoms as this. Its not a conclusive diagnosis or anything, just a jamboree of similar symptoms and frustrations and some interesting discussion about stunted organs causing constipation maybe. You may decide its not similar, in that case, you should go with prazi and some internal meds like Medigold for your fish.

Here's the linky neways.

[Roano 0]

Quick question if you're still here: I fed him a 1/4 of a pea (broken into 4 pieces) which he readily devoured. I do NOT want to do too much feeding because of the red/tearing around his vent, but should I feed him more? This is probably a judgement call for me but I haven't fed him much lately (thinking this was constipation.) Should I just leave him for the night and feed him the same amount again in the morning?

Also, thank you for the link... I'm on page 3 right now but not sure if I'll finish it tonight... I think I need to go to bed soon (thank goodness my classes are over and I don't have work tomorrow!)

Edited June 25, 2009 by Roano

[Trinket 108]

When you get time..a pic of the red vent would be good.

You can wait till morning to feed him the same amount again but he sounds hungry huh...sounds a very very small amount.

I would feed him more often, small amounts like that tomorrow. Maybe 5 times spaced out with long gaps between each feed.

[Roano 0]

Well, photo fish he is not... here's the best picture and it's not very good... I'll try and get more tomorrow.

The red part is on the left, furthest away from the anal fin. You can see it better in some of the old pictures I've posted... it's still red now but does seem less so than before. Also, when I went upstairs to take pictures, he was up, not bottom sitting (not even bottom hanging, really.)

Okay, so for tomorrow, I'll feed him when I get up (probably around 10, since I'm up so late tonight) but I have to leave the house at 12:30... so the second feeding will be around 12... I'll get home around 6 probably; I can feed him then, and then I can feed him again before I go to bed (at whatever time that is... hopefully only around 11.) The only time that isn't too spaced out is in the morning, but I'm thinking that will probably be okay?

What should I do if anytime tommorrow his vent gets really red and his sides swollen (I think the second(?) set of pictures fairly accurately depicts what I'm worried about, although it seemed worse in really life)? Should I skip a feeding? Stop feeding? Or keep going, and hoping it won't be too bad and that the new food will push the old poo through? (Although I don't know if it's really a matter of pushing the poo through... I think when he's hurting he doesn't swim so the poo just sits there half in, half out... don't know if it's better to let him take his time or push it out through feeding.)

Sorry to ask about all these possible situations... I just have a feeling this isn't going to be easy and want to try and cover any potential problems.

[Trinket 108]

Is it possible this fish ever swallowed a small stone? It can happen that it gets lodged in the intestines and is impossible to get out except as it happens by overfeeding. To push it all out, ouch but then its all over It would explain the red vent as the stone gets passed to the area repeatedly but cant get out Have you ever a) felt the side bulge very very gently to see if its hard or soft or b) noticed if it has moved down the abdomen at all?

No problem at all with questions

[Roano 0]

Yes, it's definately possible... I mean, the stones are in there. I was actually starting to slowly remove the gravel but stopped when this all happened. (Didn't want to cause undo stress.)

Well, his side bulge is actually gone: he looks "normal" now execpt for the red vent. That side bulge in the first picture came and went very quickly, and at the time he wasn't bottom sitting like he is now. Because it was so quick, I'd never felt it... it did seem like it moved down a little and became not as sharp when it got to his vent. I think it was just an accumulation of poo because as soon as the bulge moved down to his vent, he passed alot of poo and the bulge disappeared. Also, his vent has gotten so distended that sometimes in the right position I'm able to see up his vent (not good)... I can sometimes see the spirally poo coming down the "shaft", but have never seen a stone. But you're right, it would explain the red vent better than the really soft poo causing it... it just doesn't seem possible that the poo isn't crushed or broken instead!

So just stick to the feeding schedule then?

Side note about being able to see up the vent sometimes: the red doesn't seem to extend any farther than the edge of his vent... so hopefully that means there's no internal damage.

Also, something else; sometimes when he's in the light and I'm at the right angle I can see a dark spot in his middle; but I believe this is just all his internal organs, blotting out the light as it passes through other areas (like his back.) This isn't recent, and I'm not concerned about it, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

Okay, I think that's it for me. I hope he looks better in the morning.

And thanks again for everything (I probably sound like a broken record now, you've helped me so many times)... I was getting pretty desperate not knowing what to do...

[Roano 0]

My epsom salt (which says it's magnesium sulfate U.S.P.) is really old (I think it says use by 7/95 at the top!) I believe I used the same stuff before in 2005, and figure it's probably okay, but wanted to check if epsom salt expires. (My guess is that if it does, it simply loses it's effectiveness...) If I don't get a reply before it's time to do the water change, I'll just add it in as Trinket instructed.

[jyoti411 1]

Oh thank god Imo was here..Awesome..I am so glad she suggested Epsom..niceeee... ..Thank you sooo much Imo... ..ur awesome...

Roano, I would use a new pack of Epsom salts..I wouldn't risk using the 3+ years old expired salt...Its cheap and easily available.. ..btw the packet you have is the correct salt..please use a new one..

[Roano 0]

Okay, I'm going into town this afternoon (I live out in the country so I can't go back and forth at my convenience...)

I will do the 70% water change but add no new salt until I get home at 5-6, in which case I will add new epsom salt. I'm assuming I can find it at any store such as nooppee, Fred Meyer's, etc?

He was bottom-sitting when I woke up at 8 this morning, but he got up when he saw I was up. I went back to sleep for a few hours and when I woke up the second time he was up (nearish the bottom but not sitting.) I came over and he was right against the tank wall, his head tipped up, and if I had a camera I could have gotten a perfect picture of his vent...

Off to feed pea and do a water change.

[Roano 0]

The other store I meant was "Mal Wart" (you probably could guess that.) I'm guessing pretty much any all-purpose store will have it?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Roano

[jyoti411 1]

The other store I meant was "Mal Wart" (you probably could guess that.) I'm guessing pretty much any all-purpose store will have it?

Oh yeah I am sure their pharmacy section has it..also place like "walll greeen"..or "longssssssss DruGGGGssss".. ..have them for sure..

[Roano 0]

Great, thank you.

I just fed him (he seemed very happy about that) and tested the tap pH: seemed like it was around 7.6-7.7ish today not 7.8... but then I tested his tank pH and saw it was 7.8... So that's good (at first I was a little worried about the tank water difference... it's usually 8 but with all the water changes I'm sure that's why it's lowered... and I know I haven't shocked him at all because previously I've been doing several partial changes to make up a big one (staggering them?))

Okay, I'll go change some fish water now.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Roano

[Roano 0]

In terms of adding the espom, Trinket said "max half teaspoon per 10 gal" for round one... Should I do half a teaspoon first, give him time to adjust (say an hour or two) and then add the second half a teaspoon? Or just do one teaspoon for the 20 gal tank all at once (dissolved first, of course.)

I hope these salts help... looking into his vent I can see there's a "cluster" of poo just inside... it seems small enough to come out possibly but I bet it's going to be difficult anyway.

[Trinket 108]

Do it in two doses. And space them apart a few hours at least I would

[Roano 0]

All right, as of this momment, he's got 1/2 a teaspoon of espom in there with him (it was surprisingly clear when I poured the water/salt mixture into the tank... not shimmery like regular salt but I guess that's because I'm using so very little.) I'll add the second dose in a couple of hours.

Here's been his feeding schedule for the day:

2-3 am: 1/4 pea

10:40 am: gave 1/4 pea

12:30-40 pm: gave 1/4 pea

7:15 pm: gave 1/4 pea

I don't see any pea poo when I look up/at his vent... so I'm thinking about skipping the 4th feeding... I think when I was reading that link Trinket you mention 7-12 hours for fish digestion on average? Well, I still haven't seen anything and the earliest time I fed him was this morning at 2-3 am... Ideally, I would have seen green poo by now right?

I will try and get another picture up tonight.

[Roano 0]

He?s looked a lot better all day; I don?t think I saw him bottom-sit once today (except when I woke up at 8 this morning and checked on him? went back to sleep and the next time I woke up he was bottom hovering.) But after the water changes and food, he seems a lot better: he?s always up and swimming when I check in on him and his fins were erect for the majority of the time, it seems (especially this evening after I added the first round of Epsom.)

Just to recap, today I did the 70% water change, feed him three meals of pea (1/4 of a pea at each meal session, and 3 meals not including the one I fed him at 2-3 am in the morning.) He now has a full teaspoon of (new) Epsom salt in the tank.

In terms of body shape, he?s about normal: no bulging. His belly right before his vent is a little more rounded but doesn?t seem bulky: just sort of gently curved as opposed to straight. His vent doesn?t seem so red (although it?s a little redder than it appears in the 1st and 3rd picture (you can only see a little pink).) Still is brown poo though (it might be dark green spinach poo? but it just doesn?t seem that color.)

The first picture is from this morning at 11 am; the second is an attempted picture of his vent? it didn?t turn out too well but I threw it in here anyway (taken at 11 am also.) The third and fourth were recent pictures, taken at around 10 pm this evening. (Hmmm? the poo looks pretty pale in those pictures? but it?s really darker than that.)

I just hope he continues to improve!

[Roano 0]

When I woke up this morning he was up near the top of the tank, swimming around with fins up. The poo that I can see that's just about to come out is still brown, so still no green poo... His sides look a little fuller though; not bulgy, just a gentle fullness. So I'm assuming that's okay?

I'm going to feed him another 1/4 of pea before work... I get home around 4 and hopefully I will see some green poo then. If not, I think I will hold off on more feedings until I get advice to go ahead/give him more time here.

Will also do water changes, epsom when I get home today.

[koko 14,360]

Looks alot better hun.....

[jyoti411 1]

yayyyy..I am so glad he is improving..this is awesome...

[Roano 0]

Thanks, guys; I think he looks alot better too!

However... I was really hoping to see some green poo this afternoon/evening when I got home, but all I see is still a little brown. It's been about 36 hours since the first pea feeding on the 24/25 at 2-3 am... I feel like I should definately have seen something by now. His sides are a little rounded (not bad or bulky, but I can tell they are a bit rounded on the abdomen) so... how much should I be feeding him? He got 1/4 of a pea this morning and that's it so far.

The front part of his vent is still a little pinkish, but not red like before. (And I'm happy about it, but I'm also thinking: "just wait until the pea finally gets here.")

He was swimming when I checked on him just now when I got home, so that's about two days I've seen him not bottom-sit. Still, my most pressing concern is how much to feed... feels like a balancing act.

[Trinket 108]

Keep going with the tiny amount of pea 5 times a day. It is such a small amount hun really, and he desperately needs the nutrition. This fish is skinny and needs to be slowly fed more. More often, in small amounts -not large amounts once.

You can go back to the omega soon. One day at a time. He is doing great. He may just turn out to be a special care fish that needs a special diet.

[Roano 0]

Alright then, I'll go feed him some now...

I just did the 30% change... when you said before to add back 1/8 teaspoon, did you mean 1/8 teaspoon total, or 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gal?

[Trinket 108]

I meant the total final amount of epsom in the tank should at all times remain and not exceed one teaspoon of epsom (in your 20 gallon tank).

So, if you do a 30% water change for example, you have to calculate how much epsom to add back to keep it at that total level. It will be 30% of the final desired amount.

Sorry to confuse you!