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chico

Oranda Is Upside Down On Bottom Of Tank

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Hi everyone,

It's been a loooong time since I've been on this board. I'm so glad it's still around because I am having some troubles with one of my buddies.

I have an orange and white oranda, about 5 years old. I don't have all the stats...

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 40 (been that way for YEARS)

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? haven't tested yet

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? haven't tested yet

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? drops - can't remember the name

[*]Water temperature? 67F

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20g; running forever

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s); aquaclear 70 I believe (whatever the model is to filter out 300gph)

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? once week / 75%

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 fish (yes this is temporary as I am in the process of moving) oranda, comet and riukin

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? omega one 2x/day

[*]Any new fish added to the tank?no

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? a "grain of salt" on his wen, although I thought it was his wen "growing" but the white dot never went away. It turned into a little blister and was that way for about a month before this flip happened.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

On Sunday noticed Johnny the oranda was absolutely upside down on the bottom of the tank. He was trying to right himself, but just would flip over. I thought he was mimicking the riukin who has sbd once in a while.

Monday he was just on the bottom of the tank upside down. As I would approach the tank he would try to right himself briefly and then would let himself just "bonk" at the bottom and float to the corner upside down. He's either by the intake of the filter or by the bubble wand.

I did not feed him mon/tues/wed. I tried to force feed him a pea but it didn't work. His gils are moving and he's breathing lightly when he's "resting." When he gets riled up he's taking big gulps and frantically swimming up to the top then plops back upside down on the bottom again. Due to his lying near the intake his fins are fraying and getting red. Other than that no excessive slime coat.

I just cleaned the tank again today and he was just upside down the entire time. When I drop food in the tank it looks as if he sees it, he tries to right himself ever so slightly but just gives up.

The other two fish are perfectly fine.

I would assume I need to qt him, but I am not even sure how to treat him. I had a fish, Robby, who I diagnosed with chilo years ago w/a microscope. Unfortunately he did not make it. The point is I'm somewhat fish-literate and would love to try to save this guy. However I don't even know where to start besides qt w/some established media and maybe start to salt.

I will take pics tomorrow and hopefully some video to share. In the meantime can anyone offer any advice?

tks

Laura

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Laura

Welcome back to Kokos! The nitrates that high after time can have permanent damage on the fish. Think high cholesterol and blood pressure after a few years. See if you can get those nitrates lower like 5 for a few weeks! :)

My nitrates out of the tap...quite literally suck and I have upside down issues. Yes I have a little crazy guy who lays on his back upside down too!

What are your nitrates out of the tap? Can you check? How is your ph? Holding I assume.

The wen thing....blister then went away?

Personally I would start salting up to .2% to kill any bacteria that may have built up with the popping of said "growth" and do big water changes until nitrates are low!

I am sure a mod will pop by soon! Hang in there! :heart

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I go the nitrates in the tank down to about 5ish. The tap nitrate reading, in the past, was always around 40ish. I have to be honest that I have not checked the tap nitrates in about 2 years. My laziness; no excuses. The tap nitrates are great - probably less than 5. Once I saw that I immediately did massive water changes upon massive water changes this morning. Just plain ole stupidity on my part. I would like to say that it was the nitrates that is causing this problem.....

The "blister" on his head is gone but the white spot is still there. I checked his gills and they are dark pink. I tried to force feed him a pellet while the water level was low and I could get in there, but he spit it out. I'll try a pea later and see how he takes it.

newbiefishgirl, thanks for the reply. Your little one that is upside down, is he always like that? Does he flip back over to eat?

I'll watch closely what happens over the w/e.

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Oh ya, he flips back over swims goes nuts...but I worry bc he has decided he likes to kean against the intake filter. :wacko:

Nitrates 5ish :nana

This is very good. No lecture ;) Just keep an eye on it from now on!

The blister...white thing now. I would def salt for 3 weeks! If you can't remember there is a link under my signature. 1 tsp per gall..raise up to .1% then 12 hours later add the other .1% and you are at .2% !! :)

It should kill any badies in there and de-stress your fish! Watch over the weekend.

You might have to feed peas/gel food exclusivley since some fish have issues with processed foods. My gang was great with processed as babies, but with the high Nitrates gel food is the only thing that keeps them upright! :heart

Post back and let me know. ok ;)

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I have a couple questions regarding the possibility of high nitrate poisoning, if this is indeed what is going on. Can he recover from it? Is there a time frame when I can say: okay this possibly could not be a nitrate issue and something else has to be looked at?

He's still bottom sitting upside down. I reached in, turned him right-side up. He swam crazy, headed straight up, flipped over and was breathing very very hard. Floated back to the bottom and over to the intake tube.

He is still in his original tank w/his tankmates. I will take pictures later this afternoon and possibly a video to post.

I'm wondering if I should up the temp of the tank? It's about 67F. I have not salted yet; will get to that tonight.

tks much

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Typically nitrates, constipation, or SBD...a little of each can make this happen too!

Get the salt going and try peas for a few days. Watch (do you have a name) the orange oranda...checking poo. If no poo then we may have to switch up with some epsom salt. But with the blister....clean water, salting, low nitrates and peas I would think.

Lets try it for a few days. If not we can always get new plans and a mod in here. ;)

Let me read back through my posts on recovery, but with my fish...the lower the nitrates and non-processed food has done wonders.

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How are things now, Chico? Were you able to use some of the suggestions, and did you see any improvements? :)

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Not sure if things have improved or not.

The last I posted, Johnny was upside down on the bottom of the tank. He was mostly resting by the intake tube; that totally destroyed his tail fins. It was a horrible sight for about 3 days...they were so unbelievably red. He lost about half of his tail. He wasn't eating much. Then he just started floating upside down at the top of the tank. He is now ALWAYS upside down at the top. I have to hand feed him peas every other day. I try to flip him over, hold him and feed him, but he spits the food out if he's right-side up. He eats the food if he's upside down. I have a video I'm presently uploading for all to see. I have not salted. Params are great; nitrates are holding around 5-10 since I've totally increased the water changes b/c of the slight overload.

I just do not know what else to do. I haven't seen him poop; although the poop I do see in the tank is usually good green poop from the peas - however, I do not know if it's from him or from the other two.

It is also clear in the video that his right side (our left when viewing him upside down) is noticeably larger than the left side. Not sure if it means anything....

Am I reading correctly thru the other posts that epsom salt is good if he's truly constipated??

Here's a link to the video:

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/ScarM...nt=MVI_7679.flv

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HI! Jumping in since I saw your "bump" lol

Have you done the salt as you and Steph were talking about?

Yes, epsom salts do work well sometimes if a fish is truly constipated BUT you do NOT want to do epsom salt in the main tank with ALL of the fish. The other fish are doing fine and do not need it. It should only be used on the sick fish. So I suggest you QT JOhnny and try it in there if you'd like..

You really shouldn't do both regular salt AND epsom so you will want to decide which is more important right now. Considering the fish has been upside down for quite some time, you may want to go ahead and try the epsom.

You can start with 1/4 teaspoon of epsom per 10 gallons. Its very little but it does the trick. You can also continue to try to feed peas like you've been doing.

If you aren't seeing improvments in say a week with the epsom, I would consider switching back to regular salt. Because at the very least, it should help those fins recover. I think it would still be a good idea to keep him in QT for a while (with some established media), just to give him some peace and time to try to recover.

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I agree, Q.T. in a ten gallon tank with minimal current in the water. If possible do not fill the tank to the top but leave a couple of inches below the top. Sometimes lowering the water level really helps. I noticed that your fish appears to be really really round. Is it a female, then you may possibly be dealing with an egg bound fish. Did you check her tummy. Is it firm or soft and mushy?? Her fins really look frayed and red. You may be dealing with a bacterial or viral infection. Do you have access to a microscope, if so do a gill and scale scrape and see what you are dealing with. Good luck, she is a beautiful fish

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spider man - Thanks for your input. I never officially sexed Johnny, but w/the "grains" on his cheeks and his fins I believed he was a boy.

His fins are red and frayed b/c when this entire issue started, he was upside down on the bottom by the intake tube; hence his tail was being sucked into the tube - and you got frayed tail for ya (see earlier posts.)

He's always been very round - I attributed that to his size. Considered him an extremely healthy fish. I'll feel "his" belly tonight....but I'm pretty convinced he's a boy.

I've been hand feeding him peas every other day. I have not salted at all. He continues to just float upside down at the top.

I do have a microscope (I had id'd chilo years ago with my other fish.) However, I am very very uncomfortable about doing a gill scrape. A scale scrape is no issue...it's been so long since I've read up on this topic (toothless and I used to go back and forth about this years ago....) Can I just "scrape" any area of him or is there a particular area that is better than another?

CountryLovah - thanks also for chiming in. I'll try to get a qt set up this weekend and start the salt process.

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Just to add...

He can only eat upside down. I held him in my hand and gently felt around his belly...it is very very soft - almost to the point of feeling slightly hollow. I'm sorry - it's been so long since I've researched anything on fish... is that good or bad?

Also, he is certainly going into QT this weekend. The tank is in my son's room which is upstairs. When I went up to feed them tonight I noticed Johnny's wen was a bit "frayed." I believe one of the other tank mates are sucking on Johnny's wen as it looks like stalactite coming off one side of his head. I tried to get pictures but either the flash was too bright or it was too dark without the flash. Nothing stringy or fuzzy; just looks like it was picked at.

Frustrating, to say the least.

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Mushy belly can be a sign of a very serious problem. Internal bacterial infections, organ damage etc. Generally things like this are treated well with medicated food. Are you able to get some jungle antibacterial food or order MetroMeds from Goldfish Connection? (Not Medigold, in this case with your fish upside and floaty you are best to stay away from MediGold because it contrains kanamycin. I'm leaning towards trying the other medicated food though, because I have seen Trinket (our expert on fish disease around here) suggest medicated food for these potential issues. I'd love for her to confirm, but she is going to be away for a few days. If it were me I would try it though.

It could also be as Spidey said, and be egg related. I hope he checks back in on this thread.

I think no matter what QT is a good idea, and as fast as possible.. I wish I could be of more help. I really hope you fish recovers.

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Hello, sorry just saw this thread again! :(

Ok, first you need to get the Oranda out of the tank with the comet. Most definitely his wen is being eaten by the comet. Once the comet figures this out they won't stop...it becomes a food source and it will definitely stress the fish out and not help with recovery!

Try to QT ASAP.

I think some alone time will help. Anti-bac......?? Sue what would Trinket say....she is constantly telling both of us one thing...that we have a real hard time with.....maybe we should try the epsom for a few days. What do you think?

I would def swab wen with hp with the move. Hang in there. Peas and epsom. You can also put one grain of epsom in a pea safely at feeding time to speed things along. But he really needs to be alone right now!

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Alright - found the old 10g in the basement. Just finished disinfecting it and now it's sitting out in the sun to dry. I'll fill it tonight, salt w/epsom, swab with hp and transfer. I got a penguin 100 to go w/the qt tank; I'll have to take some media out of existing tank to start qt tank. I'll see what happens over the long weekend. If nothing improves, then I'll order the med food on Tuesday.

Thanks for all the input. :)

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Update - more for my records than anything else....

Transferred Johnny to 10g qt, 78 degrees F, salted w/epsom at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon at 3:45pm central on 5/21. Fed peas at 9pm. I do not have any hp on hand; will purchase tomorrow for the wen. He is still floating upside down at top of tank; leaning to his right side as his right side is much more swollen than his left.

argh

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I'm glad you got him in the QT tank. That's really good! : )

I've been reading some previous posts trying to do a little research. I've found quite a few things that confirm what I said about the mushy abdomen possibly being a sign of some sort of internal bacteria infection infecting the organs, and that it is really important to try to treat interally with a medicated food if that is the case. Just floating or upside down wouldn't have me so worried, but the fact that the belly is mushy, there is bloating on one side makes me really think something more is going on here. Plus, all the fin fraying. Then on top of everything, you say that Johnny had "grains on the cheeks" which does sound like breeding stars. So while eggs could be a problem if he happens to be a girl, all the signs here just seems to point to something else.

Like I said, normally I would wait for Trinket's confirmation, but with her gone for a few days, I dont want you to wait til then, because I think it's crucial we get some meds in the fish now. Thats just what my gut is telling me in this case. If this is a systemic infection as it seems and there is any internal bleeding or problems, you do need to act fast. When you go out tomorrow, look for the Jungle Anti Bacterial Food. You can find it in almost any chain pet store. IF you see improvements from the epsom salt, and the fish seems to be getting better, then you can return it. But if not, I think you should try the jungle food, while the fish is still eating.

I think some alone time will help. Anti-bac......?? Sue what would Trinket say....she is constantly telling both of us one thing...that we have a real hard time with.....maybe we should try the epsom for a few days. What do you think?

I'm confused. Steph, what do you mean?

salted w/epsom at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon

I just caught this. I am hoping it is a typo. Epsom dosage is 1/4 teaspoons per 10 gallons. If you've done 1/4 teaspoon per GALLON you must change out the water asap

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My typo - I really dissolved 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Sorry about that!!!

His poop is fabulous - just what you want from a fish who eats nothing but peas!

His frayed fins were a result of him floating by the intake tube for a couple days. His fins were getting sucked in, and viola - no fins. Once he started floating at the top, the fins weren't angry anymore; however he lost a lot of the length from the damage.

He is definitely a boy. After the possibility of he being a she was brought up, I examined him more closely, did some research...and I am 100% convinced he is a boy.

I will hit the store today and get him the anti-bac food. Would this be all I feed him? And for how long should this be?

Also, the part of his body that is exposed due to the floating is starting to show capillaries. I thought I read a long time back about someone swabbing with vaseline if their fish was exposed to the air??

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My typo - I really dissolved 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Sorry about that!!!

Okay great! : )

I will hit the store today and get him the anti-bac food. Would this be all I feed him? And for how long should this be?

Yes thats all you will feed.. You want to feed it exclusively for a minimum of about 14 days. The bottle says 10, but everyone on here seems to think 1 days minimum is best. You can even go up to 30 days if you choose. No other food. I hope he eats it!

I thought I read a long time back about someone swabbing with vaseline if their fish was exposed to the air??

I'll have to look into that. Could very well be, but I've never heard of it. I'll check back with you!

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I purchased the Jungle anti-bac food today. I have never used it, so I was quite surprised to see how small the pellets were. Ideally, how much of this should I be feeding him? It's a bit difficult to do by hand.

I've attached a picture of his red belly; it has gotten considerably worse as the day has progressed. I am thinking it's b/c that portion of his body is constantly exposed to air. I have no hood on the tank, therefore no exposure to any harsh light bulbs. Although I could be totally wrong and this is something associated w/the unknown problem he is having....any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

IMG_7831.jpg

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How big is he?

I've been feeding my fish about 8-10 pellets of MetroMeds twice a day. Those are at least double the size of jungle.. (If not triple) My fish are about 5 inches including tail.. SO if yours is similar in size, I would say somewhere around 15 pellets or more, two times a day? It's easier to judge when they are eating on their own, because I would just sorta feed for a few minutes, but since you are going to have to hand feed, it will be more difficult to judge. YOu want to make sure enough is getting in, so unless he starts spitting it out and refusing to eat, I would try to give a nice good portion.

Have you tried it yet? Is he eating them?

As for the red belly, it could be because it's exposed to air. But it also could confirm what I suspected about a bacterial infection that has attacked internal organs. So with the red belly, I am even more convinced that the Jungle Food was the way to go.

Let's see if the medicated food helps him out at all.. (I hope so!!!)

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Thanks, Sue.

He's pretty big - maybe 3-4 inches body only (excluding tail.) The issue is he's always been so darn ROUND.

Anyway, I did feed him about 5 pellets earlier today. I would let him chew up each one a few minutes before giving him another. After about that 5th one he didn't want anymore; he spit it out. I also gave him a little coating of vaseline on the sore spot.

Thank goodness I didn't plan on going out of town this weekend. yikes!

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Unless Sue finds something otherwise.... ;)

I found that keeping the lights off with fish stuck at the top of the tank helps with the red, no vaseline...I want to really that I was advised NOT to use it...for I thought the same thing as you. If it starts to get more red it really could be the infection showing vs. aggrevation due to top swimming. Lower the water a bit from full so he doesn't hit the tank lid. ;)

Yes feed only the medicated food (jungle antibac). You may find yourself spending a little extra time feeding since he can't swim to the bottom. Take your time (enjoy the bonding) to make sure he gets enough. Check you water parameters daily since you are starting with seeded material lets hope for no cycle bumps!

Post back. :heart

Ok somehow I missed the picture! I would def say that is infection showing. Get started with medicated food. If you don't see any improvement within a day or two.....since Trinket isn't here....Sue when Einstein had this we started with the jungle and then moved to triplesulfa only because I had already used the marycyn2. It cleared it up in a few days and I kept using the medicated food for the 14 days. What do you think?

Edited by newbiefishgirl

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Thanks for the reply! As I had mentioned earlier, there is no hood on the tank. The tank is not full.

This morning when I initially tried to feed Johnny the anti-bac food, he wanted nothing of it. After a few tries, he ate a total of 5 pellets. After the 5th he started spitting them out again. I'll try again around lunch time.

I found an article here on this website advising to use vaseline:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Swim%20Bladder%20Disorder.html

The sore is not any worse this morning. Not sure what to do since there seems to be conflicting information floating around???

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