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Guest baygentst

Septicemia

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That was all I could find locally and didn't have time to order Medigold once I found out what was wrong with my goldy. Wish I'd taken before and after pix of fishy to show how well that stuff works! Saw it with my own eyes--it was like a miracle. :)

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Guest baygentst

Well to answer the question about moving the fish to an uncycled tank. We really dont have any option, he was originally in his 46 bowfront and started showing signs so we moved him to a 10G quarantine and started treating with Marycn 2. He completly cleared up and was looking good again and the next day broke out with red spots and streaks in his fins. We kept treating with Marycn 2 and he would impove then get worse over night. Since he was in a 10G we were changing water daily.

Well i finally came home from school up north and moved the fish into a 20G because of his size and ammonia load, we dont really have any way to cycle the tank since this happend out of the blue. I am going to keep up with the water changes and monitoring tank levels but we cant treat the 46 because its such a huge amount of meds. (this tank is fully cycled). I did however steal some bio rings from my african cichlid tank that is fully cycled and added to this tank.

I added ammonia chips right now too, to help keep the ammonia down, we are treating with trisulfa now (same maker of marycn 2) because we have treated for nearly a month with Marycn2 with improvment then random collapse again. He is also getting penecillin gel food. As he is still eating.

I guess we'll see. Im getting really tired of this though everyday and the cost of meds. It may be best to just put him out of his misery because he has not been improving as of late and now it looks like skin is flaking off him and hes getting spots on his body now.

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Wow! I always thought that Jungle was a sort of cheapo not working brand of fish medications. Very interesting...

I agree with the Jungles food. It didn't work for my fish. I wound up using maracyn 2 and bought the medigold to treat their septiciemia. They are looking better by the way!

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Guest baygentst

Well i checked water parameters last night and was astonished. We changed the water at about 6pm and i checked the water quality at 1AM.

pH: 7.6

Ammonia: 1.5 mg/L (WOW)

Nitritie: 0 mg/L

Nitrate: 10 mg/L

API Test kit

76-77*F Temp

This is the 20G quarantine tank

Why such a high ammonia spike? Im tempted to put him back in his fully cycled 46 gallon bowfront but then it makes it very hard to treat his with medicine since it requires such a large quantity of meds for the gallons and i would have to move the plecos out to the 20G.

Thanks

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Are you using any kind of in tank meds. Like Maracyn two? When I used the maracyn two, By the last few days of their meds, it knocked out my cycle, and now i'm checking my water every day. The past two days i've had ammonia and nitrite spikes forcing me to do a water change once a day for the last two days!

Watch those meds the antibacterials..kill anything in the tank including all your good BB's!

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Guest baygentst

We switched from Marycn 2 to Trisulfa now, since Marycn did not correct the issue (we thought it was then he got worse again, this just kept happening). I am watching the tank levels everyday, but i hate to keep changing water because then you are changing the concentration of medicine to water volume.

I also just checked on the API test kit that using ammonia chips or such will still show a positive test for ammonia even though it has been captured and converted into a safer form. So its possible with the ammonia chips in the tank the ammonia levels are really ok, but are testing high due to the fact that the non-toxic form (whatever the ammonia chips converts it to), is still in the tank causing an error on the test.

Thanks

Tom

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Are you using enough ammochips? Fish can produce massive amounts daily, more than this reading in an uncycled tank. Fish produce more ammonia under stress and when sick.

Is there is any salt in the water? This will cause the release of ammonia back into the water out from the ammochips/zeolite.

I think you should read through these two pinned links to understand false/pos ammonia readings.

Ammonia detoxifier cautions

and this one;

Prime

About Jungle food ...actually Jungle is an excellent and powerful antibiotic food. It contains nitrafurazone which is a known killer of the leading group of bacteria (flex) that causes columnaris. It is also a combo drug like medigold containing sulfa like medigold so attacks a second group of bacteria that is found with flex, another aerobic bacteria called flavo.

We cannot dismiss an antibiotic medication as 'useless' because each one has a small range of success if chosen accurately- Don't pay too much attention to package promotion- they all say the same "treats finrot, septicemia, dropsy"- this is impossible since all these are symptoms of 1000 different diseases. Listen instead to folk who have been treating fish for years and seen the exact symptoms your fish have.

The most important thing here is to take time to look at your fishes symptoms before you add antibiotics to the water or feed them because successive shotgun use of antibiotics weakens and eventually kills fish.. Take the time to look at the exact placement of those spots and streaks, look at the facts-how long has this been going on -is it chronic or acute (some bacteria are more virulent and progress faster)- look at past records of fish who have had exact similar disease symptoms- etc etc before adding medication to your tank.

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Guest baygentst
Are you using enough ammochips? Fish can produce massive amounts daily, more than this reading in an uncycled tank. Fish produce more ammonia under stress and when sick.

Is there is any salt in the water? This will cause the release of ammonia back into the water out from the ammochips/zeolite.

I think you should read through these two pinned links to understand false/pos ammonia readings.

Ammonia detoxifier cautions

and this one;

Prime

About Jungle food ...actually Jungle is an excellent and powerful antibiotic food. It contains nitrafurazone which is a known killer of the leading group of bacteria (flex) that causes columnaris. It is also a combo drug like medigold containing sulfa like medigold so attacks a second group of bacteria that is found with flex, another aerobic bacteria called flavo.

We cannot dismiss an antibiotic medication as 'useless' because each one has a small range of success if chosen accurately- Don't pay too much attention to package promotion- they all say the same "treats finrot, septicemia, dropsy"- this is impossible since all these are symptoms of 1000 different diseases. Listen instead to folk who have been treating fish for years and seen the exact symptoms your fish have.

The most important thing here is to take time to look at your fishes symptoms before you add antibiotics to the water or feed them because successive shotgun use of antibiotics weakens and eventually kills fish.. Take the time to look at the exact placement of those spots and streaks, look at the facts-how long has this been going on -is it chronic or acute (some bacteria are more virulent and progress faster)- look at past records of fish who have had exact similar disease symptoms- etc etc before adding medication to your tank.

Here are the symptoms:

  • There appear to be spots that look like pimples almost on the Caudal fin (some look like they have white stuff in them). These pimples are also starting to form on the body as well.
  • There are blood streaks and spots running through the Caudal fin, there are blood spots in the Dorsal fin as well and some under the mouth and throat region.
  • There appears to be some red spotting/pimples forming on the nape region as well.
  • The pectoral fin socket is highly inflamed and red, it also appears that pieces of dry skin are flaking off (best way to describe it).
  • The fish will sit in a vertical orientation unless somebody is at the tank, then he will swim about. He looks like he is gulping at the surface (there is aeration in the tank)
  • The fins are starting to fray.
  • The fish still eats, goldfish flake and veggies.
  • This has been chronic for over a month now, he originally had blood spotting/streaks and we treated originally with Marycn 2 and he was totally clear then the next morning was bloody once again.

Here is a record of what has been done:

  • Last month +: Noticed the fish was developing blood spots/streaks in his Caudal Fin while in his fully cycled 46G bowfront.
  • Moved fish to uncycled 10G QT tank with daily water changes.
  • Dosed with Marycn for 5 days with no major changes, started dosing with Marycn 2 and the spots/streaks cleared up entirely then reformed.
  • Continued to dose with Marycn 2 with the fish clearing up completely then breaking out again.
  • Dosing went on for probably a good 2-3 weeks, still continuing with daily changes in water.
  • about a week or 2 ago, fish stopped responding to Marycn 2 treatment.
  • Moved to uncycled 20G QT tank, added ammonia chips, 2 waterfall filters, still keeping up with everyother day water changes, except this last week with the new dosing (trisulfa).
  • Started dosing with Mardel Trisulfa and Penecillin Gel Drops (in food 3x daily).

Since moving the fish to the 20G uncycled QT tank he seems to be responding more and may look a tad better but still hangs verticle in the tank and has red blood spots/streaks and the pimple looking things.

I realize moving him to uncycled tanks is hard but I have no other options because i cant dose him in the 46G without A. hurting the plecos, or B. destorying the BB, and C. its such a large quanity of water to dose.

I did add salt to the water with the ammonia chips, im glad you brought up this point, can i just change the water or will i need to change the chips? They say you can "recharge" them with salt, so presumably if i removed the salted water the chips should capture ammonia again and convert it to a bound form.

Thanks

Tom

Edited by baygentst

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Ok. This helps.

First thing is get that salted water out and go with fresh de-chlorinated/treated water plus ammo chips. The same chips should be fine as you say but check ammonia levels daily anyway.

The pimples with stuff in are aeromonas/pseudonmas bacterial type infections. This is a very serious case and he is infected internally and externally so your idea of internal and external meds is probably a good idea although penecillin is not a good medication for these predominantly gram neg bacteria since it treats gram positive bacteria mainly.

The Tri-sulfa is a good one for this.

Are your other fish fine? No new fish added in the last 4 months?

When did you last get new fish food?Once opened fish flakes last approx 6 months after which you may as well feed cardboard. Good nutrition is a top priority with a fish this sick. Try krill, shrimp, softly cooked green veg like brocolli and peas.

And get hold of some NEW fish food.

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Guest baygentst
Ok. This helps.

First thing is get that salted water out and go with fresh de-chlorinated/treated water plus ammo chips. The same chips should be fine as you say but check ammonia levels daily anyway.

The pimples with stuff in are aeromonas/pseudonmas bacterial type infections. This is a very serious case and he is infected internally and externally so your idea of internal and external meds is probably a good idea although penecillin is not a good medication for these predominantly gram neg bacteria since it treats gram positive bacteria mainly.

The Tri-sulfa is a good one for this.

Are your other fish fine? No new fish added in the last 4 months?

When did you last get new fish food?Once opened fish flakes last approx 6 months after which you may as well feed cardboard. Good nutrition is a top priority with a fish this sick. Try krill, shrimp, softly cooked green veg like brocolli and peas.

And get hold of some NEW fish food.

Yes i will get new fish food, i don't believe its that old but it may be. There have been no other fish added to the large cycled tank, just 2 small plecos that are happy and healthy and un-affected that have been in there for a long time. I will be dosing with the last foil pouches of tri-sulfa tomorrow. His condition seems the same however.

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What kind of plecos are they?

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Clowns are not really good tank mates for goldies :unsure: I have rubbernose with goldies myself but clowns can be aggressive at night and may be stressing your fish when you dont see. They are known to attach & suck on slimecoat in the dark when the fish are sleeping/less active. Don't want to scare you but we have had members here with this issue before.

Just trying to cover a few more bases. The rubbernose should be safe.

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Guest baygentst
Clowns are not really good tank mates for goldies :unsure: I have rubbernose with goldies myself but clowns can be aggressive at night and may be stressing your fish when you dont see. They are known to attach & suck on slimecoat in the dark when the fish are sleeping/less active. Don't want to scare you but we have had members here with this issue before.

Just trying to cover a few more bases. The rubbernose should be safe.

You know whats funny the clown is really timid and likes to hid in the bush at all times, the rubber nose on the other hand will chase and harass the clown occasional. They mostly stick to their own sides, since the big Goldie is out of the tank now the rubber nose has gotten really active darting all over the tank at all times, hes quite fun to watch. The clown just chills out in the plants I hardly see him.

**One question, can the breathing at the top of the tank even with an airstone be due to the ammonia levels?

Thanks

Tom

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Typically it is caused by any nitrites in the water.

Ammonia usually causes bottom sitting.

But any toxin at all can make the fish gasp yes. In this case he has gill damage/bleeding and will be having problems osmoting everything since the gills are like a fishes heart- most important place to keep healthy.

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Guest baygentst

It must be ammonia then and gill damage, i checked nitrates and nitrites both are good. Nitrites zero nitrates 7

Edited by baygentst

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Yes definitely. The gills are responsible for removing ammonia so that will be it.

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Guest baygentst

I noticed the other day that he is clamping his fins, and spazzing out sometimes.

What i mean by spazzing out is he will be swimming around normally then he will flutter his fins really fast and fly around the tank then stop.

Still changing water daily and keeping up good food in the tank as well. Hes looking worse/same.

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Guest baygentst

Heres updated photos. Same old thing, he looks better one day then gets worse the next day. His front pectoral fin was completely cleared up and now today 24hrs later its bloody again. UGG

Sick Fish Photos

Is there a humane way to euthenize a fish?

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there is a way to euthenize a fish. it's located on kokosgoldfish.com under the faq's (I think). However, I'd try and wait for a response from Trinket. she has been helping me w/ my sick goldie and he has been improving. I'm really sorry that you've been going through this for so long. you've got a strong fish so don't give up on him yet! :) I think you said that you just came home from school, do you go back sometime this coming week?

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Even small plecos can attach to fishes slimecoat. Before euthanising your fish you MUST rule out this possibility by removing the clown pleco and actually both plecos.... just in case. Sick fish are prime targets at night especially. All plecos seem gentle and sweet when we are around, I just have to conclude this is the plecos work- or at least after he got sick- they are stressing him by attaching. He moves sooooo slow and these slow fish are always the targets. I have seen rubbernose plecs attach. They fly onto sick fish and take small bites all over. There are countless stories in another section of the forum about this.

What happened to the calico fantail in the last pic? Did he also have a similar disease as that info could also be helpful.

How long have you had the fish in NON medicated good clear water ammonia free? Even one ammonia bump as you had last week will set back any progress and fish can take 2 months or more of sustained good water and food to heal. Yes it takes a long time.

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Guest baygentst

He has been in a tank all by himself since before thanksgiving when he developed this illness. The fish since 2 weeks before thanksgiving has shown signs of hemmoraging. There are no plecos in his QT tank just him. We have not stopped medicating him at any point because if we stop for even a day he spirals down in 24 hours.

He has been sick and showing signs of hemmoraging since november 13th ish. No matter what we have done, trisulfa, marycn 2, marycn, pencillin food, tetracycline food, food soaked in marycn, QT tanks, daily water changes, and ammonia chips, he has not improved.

The faintail randomly expired months before. We think he had a fish lice. Unsure though.

Edited by baygentst

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Did you see fish lice ever? They are tiny green spots that move...

This could be key info..

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I noticed the other day that he is clamping his fins, and spazzing out sometimes.

What i mean by spazzing out is he will be swimming around normally then he will flutter his fins really fast and fly around the tank then stop.

Still changing water daily and keeping up good food in the tank as well. Hes looking worse/same.

From what you've said, it sounds like something i learned lately and thats flashing (I could be wrong, just trying to provide helpful advice) but flashing is sudden erractic movement such as darting and also rubbing, i.e against substrate, tank sides, ornaments etc. Flashing usually happens with parasites on the skin irratating the fish, such as flukes.

In regards to euthanising, I know nowt about this but there is a guide and a lengthy talked subject on kokos:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=32080

The only method i know is using a priest and bashing the head of the fish, its how I kill fish that I catch but euthanising is doing something without pain, a priest I doubt would cause pain as death would be immediate but it would prolly sound cruel to most.

NB A priest is basically a mallet, not someone from the church!

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