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Bred To Be Like That?


stalepriest

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Am I right in believing that allot of goldfish were actually bred to appear the way they do and are not actually natural species? Being an animal loving veggie, I think it's very cruel that these fish have been bred with what are essentially disabilities that will give them a poorer quality of life all in favour of aesthetics. To be honest it's a bit sick and very unfair if it's true.

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Am I right in believing that allot of goldfish were actually bred to appear the way they do and are not actually natural species?

You are right in believing this.

Being an animal loving veggie, I think it's very cruel that these fish have been bred with what are essentially disabilities that will give them a poorer quality of life all in favour of aesthetics.

And you have a right to think this.

To be honest it's a bit sick and very unfair if it's true.

This, however is a judgmental statement, rather than an opinion. In addition, the tone of the statement is bordering on being in conflict with one of the board rules.

6. Please, no discussions of Politics, Religion, Hunting and animal cruelty on the site. There are debate forums out there, just not on this family forum. People doing this will be warned and topic will be deleted.

I invite you to read the rules at http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...?act=boardrules , and read some of the posts. Welcome to the forum. You will find that everyone here cares very much for their goldfish pets.

If you do one day keep goldfish, I would recommend Comets as a suitable type to be in harmony with your feelings.

Regards,

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Most of our pets were made by man using selective breeding. Do you think it is cruel to have a poodle, chihauhau, or a lab? None of our dog breeds or cat breeds are found in the wild they were breed to be like that too.

Yes sometimes it does get into the extreams and can cause some health problems but ovet time even that can be improved with careful breeding.

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Guest Sly C. Pea
Sorry about that.

They are all very beautiful fish, I would love a Calico Fantail in the future.

Nice 360!!!! It's good to stand by an opinion, it shows character.

:rolleyes:

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Sorry about that.

They are all very beautiful fish, I would love a Calico Fantail in the future.

Nice 360!!!! It's good to stand by an opinion, it shows character.

:rolleyes:

I stick by my opinion, doesn't stop me from finding them attractive, it's just unfair when the quality of an animals health and life suffers for the sake of us humans having something pretty to look at (including dogs and cats). I don't want to cause trouble here. Besides I am a rookie, what do I know?

Edited by stalepriest
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I do totally see your point. Most fancy goldfish were developed a very long time ago when animal welfare wasn't exactly a popular idea :unsure: I like to think that the strains we have now are relatively healthy and not suffering. Yes they may be more prone to disease and not quite as 'efficient' as commons, but like Hidr pointed out, tons of domestic animals are far from the origional breeds they came from too :)

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Yeah, breeding for looks is always an iffy subject. It can cause lots of conflicting opinions, even within one person's mind. Purple Heart Parrotfish are one example that defines cruelty for me, yet, I think Celestial Eye goldfish, who are similarly "disabled" if you think about it, are adorable. Fish aren't the only animals that this breeding-for-looks philosophy affects; my coworker is a total "bird nerd" (her term which I love!) and she tells me about certain birds that are so overbred and inbred for patterns and colour that they are sterile and whatnot. Dogs too - like the squishy pug-faces that are so adorable and squished that they have breathing problems.

I guess in terms of fish, it's "easier" to start messing around with their looks without too much thought because they manage so well. It's easy to see when a dog can't breathe poperly and suffers because of an overbred trait, but many people can't tell, or don't mind as much, when a fish is suffering. And to play devil's advocate, it is hard to tell if that super-fat waddling pearlscale is "suffering" because of his body shape.

It is a touchy subject, to be sure, and who knows if we'll all ever be able to reach a consensus on what is ok and what is cruel.

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Sorry about that.

They are all very beautiful fish, I would love a Calico Fantail in the future.

I love calico Ryukin especially. I hope you don't think I came down on you like a ton of bricks. That wasn't my intent.

Some folks here who breed goldies may have seen the tone of your comments as controversial.

Namaste,

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I suppose for fish, at the end of the day if you can help give them a good life in a nice tank/pond then aesthetics is ok. I am very new to all this and some of these different types of goldfish (which I never new existed until a few month ago) are stunning.

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my coworker is a total "bird nerd" (her term which I love!) and she tells me about certain birds that are so overbred and inbred for patterns and colour that they are sterile and whatnot.

Really? I find the oppisite to be true about birds. The people I know on the forums, and in my bird club really look down on people that cross breed. I am a pet nanny to over 100 birds and not one pair are cross breeds. I have not heard of any in the "bird world" that are sterile either. I do know people do cross breed but it is few and far between.

Moslty cause so many parrots/birds are endangered in the wild and we have to discourage cross breeding.

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Sorry about that.

They are all very beautiful fish, I would love a Calico Fantail in the future.

I love calico Ryukin especially. I hope you don't think I came down on you like a ton of bricks. That wasn't my intent.

Some folks here who breed goldies may have seen the tone of your comments as controversial.

Namaste,

My comments were pretty hasty to be honest, especially not knowing allot about the fish and breeding. I meant no offence and certainly took none.

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All goldfish are the same species, Carassius auratus.

Selective breeding definitely goes too far sometimes. So many breeds of dogs are genetically messed up because of this. There is an article in my blog about why pure breeds are not ideal for those who are interested. Basically in order to develop a pure breed you need to cut down the gene pool. We do this by choosing the individuals with the traits we desire. The problem is that in the process of cutting down the gene pool you also increase the frequency of a lot of different genetic problems. In dogs you can see this as heart and brain problems, joint problems, hip dysplasia, etc. Look at an English Bulldog. Some are fine, but many can barely breath, get up, lay down, walk, etc. In some cases it is fine, in others it is very detrimental to their health. It has happened in goldfish as well. Some breeds have gone too far in my opinion. When they can't swim around and enjoy being a fish, it is too far in my opinion. If they require very specialized diets (not just very high quality) and super high quality water, it is too far. Basically high end fish as a whole end up being more sensitive. This is not just goldfish but discus, angels, bettas, guppies, etc. as well. The very high end ones are more sensitive because in order to get that particular coloration breeders had to breed based on the color and not the hardiness, that is when the hardiness is effected.

I think the special needs fish need to be culled, even if it is an amazing coloration or other unique trait. Culling is an important part of maintaining a healthy population and gene pool.

In the end we all need to figure out what we each find to be too much and stick to what we like. I won't be buying pearlscales or any high end goldfish (I go through LFSs which by the nature of the LFS and wholesaler function as an accidentally culling process ensuring the ones I end up with are much less likely to be extra sensitive or less hardy in general). Others may feel that anything but a common is too far.

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When it comes to super farms like Tung Hoi, they are breeding for color and strains - supply and demand. As long as new types of fish like crystal ranchu, tiger-stripe ryukins, oranda/ryukin cross, and panda varieties continue to sell at the pace they do, nothing will change. There are plenty of breeder farms that specialize in a certain type of goldfish, and not necessarily look at creating new breed and colors. They would rather focus on perfecting what they have.

It?s the suppliers that dye or paint their fish that are the cause for concern. :(

Ed :)

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my coworker is a total "bird nerd" (her term which I love!) and she tells me about certain birds that are so overbred and inbred for patterns and colour that they are sterile and whatnot.

Really? I find the oppisite to be true about birds. The people I know on the forums, and in my bird club really look down on people that cross breed. I am a pet nanny to over 100 birds and not one pair are cross breeds. I have not heard of any in the "bird world" that are sterile either. I do know people do cross breed but it is few and far between.

Moslty cause so many parrots/birds are endangered in the wild and we have to discourage cross breeding.

She doesn't agree with crossbreeding either - she's told me about some crossbreed between two endangered bird species (I can never remember what they are!) and it upsets her. I meant severe inbreeding within one species for colour or song and whatnot. One example that she told me about was Gouldian finches - they are so inbred to preserve their amazing colours and patterns that they have many problems. Of course, not knowing anything about birds, I just take her word for it and don't really know much about these things!

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I think those bubble goldfish are being treated badly by the way they're bred. I think the fact that a lot of them have caring owners can't be ignored either. I understand what you are saying in terms of having abnormal body for the enjoyment of the human eyes. However you also have to look at the fact that they have a good chance of getting cared by owners that will help them not to worry about food, predators, diseases, and living conditions for their entire life. I'm talking about mostly fancy goldfish that are bred to the extremes. It's good to look at both positive and negative.

Now, as for body forms and functions comets and commons haven't gone through extreme breedings but they suffer from the horrible feeder fish system. Fancies, even tho their bodies are 'deformed' in ways they are not gonna be treated this way usually.

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All goldfish are the same species, Carassius auratus.

Selective breeding definitely goes too far sometimes. So many breeds of dogs are genetically messed up because of this. There is an article in my blog about why pure breeds are not ideal for those who are interested. Basically in order to develop a pure breed you need to cut down the gene pool. We do this by choosing the individuals with the traits we desire. The problem is that in the process of cutting down the gene pool you also increase the frequency of a lot of different genetic problems. In dogs you can see this as heart and brain problems, joint problems, hip dysplasia, etc. Look at an English Bulldog. Some are fine, but many can barely breath, get up, lay down, walk, etc. In some cases it is fine, in others it is very detrimental to their health. It has happened in goldfish as well. Some breeds have gone too far in my opinion. When they can't swim around and enjoy being a fish, it is too far in my opinion. If they require very specialized diets (not just very high quality) and super high quality water, it is too far. Basically high end fish as a whole end up being more sensitive. This is not just goldfish but discus, angels, bettas, guppies, etc. as well. The very high end ones are more sensitive because in order to get that particular coloration breeders had to breed based on the color and not the hardiness, that is when the hardiness is effected.

I think the special needs fish need to be culled, even if it is an amazing coloration or other unique trait. Culling is an important part of maintaining a healthy population and gene pool.

In the end we all need to figure out what we each find to be too much and stick to what we like. I won't be buying pearlscales or any high end goldfish (I go through LFSs which by the nature of the LFS and wholesaler function as an accidentally culling process ensuring the ones I end up with are much less likely to be extra sensitive or less hardy in general). Others may feel that anything but a common is too far.

Thanks for the information and education. :)

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