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CountryLovah

Still Problems With Orandas! :(

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Bad news. All fish alive, but bad news.

Okay I am about to break down and just cry but I am gonna try and not do that.

All seemed great. Days 5, 6 went by. I did a water change on the two 10 gallons tanks, added prime. Figured that would be gone by Thursday and I could continue with the final Day 8 "clean up" treatment as recommened..

Added PP to the tanks Tanks turned amber... Obviously, the prime is Still active!!!! Even though it had been 24 hours... ! So I moved Kahlua in with Miranda and Samantha.. did a 100% water change on the tank Kahlua was in.... When that was done I moved them back to Kahlua's and did a 100% water change on Miranda & Samanthas tank.. I did not want them in the amber water since what happened last time.. At some point I did a test while there were no fish in the tanks..I added the PP to one of the tanks with NO prime at all... It was a clear pink/purple that I had not seen in all the days of the previous week... So as a test, I added ONE dose of prime and immediatly the water changed to the pink I was seeing all those days last week.. One more dose prime (which is what is normally in my tanks cause of high chloramines) and I am getting the amber color that I get during all the days when it "goes wrong".

So at this point it's like what to do? They all seemed great so I figures I would leave them all three together overnight in one of the tanks. Not ideal but for one night it should be okay.. I didn't want to leave them in chlorinated water, but at the same time I wanted to leave ONE tank filled with prime free water to let sit for 24 hours. I figured this way the chlorine would be gone, but there would be no prime in the water, so I could them give them their "final clean up treatment" then move them to the 40 gallon.

Well...the water sat for 24 hrs so I figured it was safe from chlorine.. So I added the girls to that tank. Figuring I would add the PP. I should have looked at them closely before doing so but did not I guess because things had been going so well... But I did notice once they were in the tank (no PP at the time) that Samantha's doral fin had split, and there was a red blood section like the ones she had a few months ago.. Upon closer inspection I believe some of the mouth strands are back. And remember how she had white "section" on her tail..Well, a new one has sprung up on the other side of the tail. Then I looked at Kahlua.. the white spot that she has on her fin that she has had forever has grown large and turned RED! It was never anything but white and now it's is totally red!! SO then I looked at Miranda.. She has a growth on her tail.. It looks kinda like the white growth on sams tail, but in the middle of it looks like a pinkish pimple in the middle..This is the first outward sign of a problem she has had, other than the fact that she is smaller than the others. She was bigger than Sam and now Sam is waaaaay bigger than her..

What is happening? How stubborn is this thing??? My brain is racing with possibilites and I am confused! Is it possible the prime reduced the effectivness of the PP last week and only helped make this bacteria immune to the PP and stronger?? Or did the PP kill the GOOD bacs and in a weird way allow this infection to take hold again? Or was the bacteria internalized and now it's working its way OUT so I am seeing more physical symptoms but it means it's actually helping? I can't tell if this is a good thing or bad thing... I just do NOt know what to do or what this all means... But now I just don't know where things stand or where to go from here! We've tried soooo much... Everytime I think it's under control it's not...And I just don't know what to do anymore!!!

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Oh no Sue.. :( ..I am soo sorry..I have been away for the past 2 days...just went thru your happy posts about day 4..I thought this is good..everything under control...UGHHH..I sure understand it is sooo stressful..unsure.gif

I have no advice...All I know is that you are doing absolutely gr8 with them...you are doing everything u can for them..and kudos to u for not giving up yet.. :hug Please hang in there...I am sure Imo/Pixie would drop in with advice...I can only offer some support and Hugs to u... :heart Thinking about the babies and you..Hope everything gets better soon.. :heart

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Thanks J!!! Somehow I think you know when I am having problems because you ALWAYS seem to be online when I have a major issue and freak out and are ALWAYS there to calm me down... Don't know what I would do without you.. I appreciate you being here for me SOOOO much! You really have no idea.. : )

Now... I've calmed myself down I think and gotten my head on straight... Since Imogen is not here I am over here playing my "What Would Imo Do?" game... Whenever other people ask for advice i think to myself "what would imo do" so now I need to help myself in that manner and stop freaking out just because this is MY fish.. Suck it up Sue and tell yourself what you would tell other people right now, and what you think Imo would tell you!! lol

And THIS is what i came up with.

First off, fresh water.., larger swimming space.. At this point the medications may be causing the fish more harm than good and they do not need the stress right now of medications. If anything we need to rule out any stress factors.. So some main stress factors here right now are 1) medications 2) being handled often yesterday 3) too small of space 4) sickness caused by SOMETHING, possibly still bacteria...

So all three fish back in 40 gallon.. One final move, yes, but that elimates stress factor 1) and 3) The 40 gallon is larger, so more swimming space, and also, more water so the bacteria count will be kept smaller.. so in some ways that helps stress factor 4) by reducing bacs.. And once they settle down from this final move stress factor 2) is eliminated. SO stress free environment..

This also gives us time to think because Imo would NEVER just jump into a new treatment plan without thinking it through carefully.

Now,look over past things that helped to see if that helps us make sense of it. In the past the problem never fully went away, but in some ways if you look back it seemed to improve most when they were in the 40 gallon and "Staying the same is better than getting worse!".

Looking back to when Malibu died, all fish were moved to the 40 gallon to get out of their "bad" tanks.. The problems did not get better, but they also did not get worse.. WHen they were moved BACK to the small tanks to PP the 40, more problems were noticed... At the time we thought "Ohh good thank god I am treating them" But MAYBE, the move and smaller space actually brought about MORE stress leaving them more susceptible... And that is why the problems showed up the day they were moved into those tanks. Then the PP last week appeared to help, but when one extra stress factor was added into the equation they ALL got sick..(All of the moving around last night!) On top of this, the constant medications have left them with absolutely no GOOD bacteria in their systems to fight this, which may be WHY any little extra stress factor and the fish get sick.. And of course, meds themselves are stressful.

So it's time to stop trying to kill the bad bacteria (because obviously that has failed) and try to re-establish the good...They cannot be on medication forever, and as long as they are on meds their bodies can't produce the good bacs which may fight this off...Which seems to be their biggest strength right now. These fish are strong. We need to build on THAT.. They did NOT get worse in the 40 gallon with no meds before, so hopefully they won't get worse in the 40 now.. As long as they are behaving well, which they ARE, right now they need to build up their systems... with good conditions, good food, and hopefully in time their little bodies will be strong enough to win this for themselves. Because lord knows they are fighters.

So we go back to Imo...

WHat ever happened to good old immunity?

Well Imo.. What do you think?!

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I'm thinking as usual you have talked this through with yourself and come to a conclusion that sounds reasonable and a next course of action that sounds like the best next step. I am also left with the feeling that a) the PP strength may have been wrong OR something whacky going on with it and b) this is not going to go away with any meds and yes that leaves us with fresh water and immunity. However I do wonder if something here is aggravating the situation and I just cant quite catch a hold of what that may be ....it may be your hunch...that more bbs are needed here and the water is showing some problems that are not allowing the meds to work efficiently enough and for the bad bacteria to remain at large and more virulent.. I am going to need some time to read back hun- including the ammo Qs which I haven't answered yet (oops) ..so give me a min sweetie -Im here for the long haul tonight- and I will read through and give my opine for what its worth. Meanwhile check your water again including pH and hang in there :heart

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You know I do wonder if ammonia hasnt done this. I am really confuzzled with ammonia false/pos readings myself- its not my strong point at all- but it wouldn't surprise me if you had ammonia spiking and thats whats set off a relapse. Just focus on perfect params, good clean water next,I'll check back on ya'll in the morning. Hang tight fish gang and fishmom :grouphug

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Thanks Imo! : )

What you are saying about the ammonia makes sense, especially considering that I was asking all those q's about the ammo chips.. it's very possible that something was going on with false readings and/or the ammo chips not working as needed in the 10 gallon QT tanks.

Last time they were in the 40 gallon it was uncycled and I was using the ammo chips. Then they were back in the 10's with ammo chips. And yes, there was periods where the ammo chips were not removing all the ammonia for sure because I definately saw a reading of free ammonia! (Hence all the ammo chips questions!) After I PPed the 40 gallon this time, I added the filter media I had been saving and it has been in there for a few weeks.. It pretty much cycled instantly.. There is NO ammonia whatsoever.. Nitrates are definatly showing up, but I think it just needs a bit more time to get enough bb's to turn the nitrites into nitrates because sometimes there is a reading of nitrite.. However, thats also using pure ammonia to add to the tank all at once, as opposed to the slow amount you would see with fish.. I have a feeling with the fish in the tank, and light feedings, i will be seeing a fully cycled tank in days. And then we can give it time to become a nice established filter.

I am going to check my water now before work. Glance at the seachem meters shows 0 ammonia, PH 8.2. But now I am going to do drops. Okay: Ammonia=0 Nitrite= about 0.75ppm as suspected, Nitrate=15-20ish, PH=8.2. Unfortunatly the nitrite is a bit higher than it would normally BE because the other day I added pure ammonia to the tank to keep the cycle going. As I said the ammonia converting bb's are fully established.. I just need those nitrite converting ones to pick up and multiply, but they are there for sure because there is a nitrate reading higher than my tap of 10ppm. Hate to say the word but I am gonna have to pull out the prime to detox the nitrites until I get home and can do a water change.

I am 99.9% sure the PP dosage was correct. I measured it sooo carefully, and always took out my book when dosing, EVEN though I knew the amount in my head, JUST to be safe. But I do agree something wacky must have been going on. Possibly with the Prime. Just as a test, I left the tank with the PP in it last night just the way it was. This was a tank with water that was left to sit for 24 hours as opposed to using prime.. It's still pink this moning! In the past it would have turned amber LONG ago.. I believe the key here is not using a dechlorinator. If we try the immunity/water method and run into problems down the line, it might be possible to attempt this one final time, but getting a large trash can and filling it with water in the same room and using that water for water changes. That way no Prime is needed and it will not be deactivated too early unneccessarily.

But my gut tells me to rely on water/immunity right now.. They just look sooo happy in the 40 gallon. Shane even said "wow look at them! They are the happiest fish in the world". I fed them last night and they gobbled it up.. They were definately stressed out when I put them in last night, but within 10 mins in the 40 gallon tank I saw them perk up, and begin their little chasing games. They love to swim back and forth in a row taking turns with differernt ones in the lead. Looking at them now I see three very happy active babies. Exploring and swimming and playing.. And I simply love seeing Kahlua bond with the other two. I've said it before I think, but she reminds me of myself in the way that when I joined koko's I kinda just jumped right in and was like "yep! You guys are friends with me now whether you like it or not". LMAO

AND some more good news. 1) Kahlua's spot... Last night it was red & puffy. It has gotten a bit smaller and most of the red is gone. 2) The larger red blood areas in Sams dorsal and tail are gone, and now I just see the split in her fin from last night, BUT it has NOT gotten worse, possibly already is starting to grow back together!

3) Mirandas spot remains a mystery. It is still milky white, but it appears the pimply part in the middle is receding.

Not sure exactly what all these things mean, but they do seem to be indicative of positve signs, not negative ones.

Well I will update when I get home. And continue checking water params... lol (Oh right, so nothing different than what I have been doing for the LAST 6 months lol)

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Gee Sue, I wish you could get a break here!

But, after reading all of this.....I like the way you talk yourself through this whole thing.

Water and immunity!

Water, water, water! ( I know it is a pain in the....) Instead of using the prime to calm the nitrites/ammonia/nitrates in between your water changes...maybe test with the stupid drops (ignore the ammonia alert reader for a couple days) for everything, every morning and evening, and just be doing huge water changes twice a day. I mean, what can it hurt? I did manage to pull through my cycle issue and you helped me there. But we did it through the big water changes. Just my :twocents ! But maybe my meandering thoughts will give you a bump to discover the best idea ever!

Good luck!

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Keeping the water happy sounds like a plan. :exactly

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Sue, for what it is worth I think you are doing absolutely the right thing. At this point you have tried everything under the sun to kill the baddies, so now it is time to let them heal and encourage their natural immune systems. One thought is that with the holidays coming up (and your fish store discount) you could think about investing in a UV sterilizer to help with the process. Just a thought.

Meanwhile, the fact that they are happy, swimming and eating means that you made the right choice...I'm not surprised. :rolleyes:

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Update time : )

I've always got little names or sounds I make for my goldies.. Or little songs..Cause i am weird like that..lol... And now whenever I see the orandas I say "Hi little hap hap happies!"...Because the three of them are sooo darn cute and happy together in this tank..

Seriously, I think this was the right move.. I am doing water tests and water changes until the nitrite part of the cycle is finally done. And everything else, seems great.. they are soo much happier being in here together. You can SEE how happy they are.. They just love their lives.. They are such good friends : )

Lack of stess is already helping I think. Samanthas split dorsal? Almost healed. The rest of the small problem areas remain. Kahlua's spot (but it is all white again, no trace of red or pink). Mirandas milky area (again all white). Finally Sam still has the one missing scale, but no more.. Hard to tell inside the mouth if I am seeing any strings.. But the point is, nothing is becoming drastically worse, so hopefully, if I can keep everything clean in there, and keep them happy, they can start to fight this on their own in no time.. I will of course update if I see any changes, better or worse..

Thanks for everything as always guys... : )

Oooh ohhh! And yes I would LOVE to save up for a UV!!! Was thinking about that recently Amy!

Oh and I have a bunch of extra info to share with you guys. SO I am gonna start posting away in different threads now LOL hahaha

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Good, good and great! Well done. This all sounds like no more relapses are on the horizon now :hug

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I think we need some pics of the hap hap happies ;)

I want a UV too, but for my trop tank, I add fish to it more often than the goldie tank and it's more prone to outbreaks. A girl can dream...I still don't even have my python!

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I love you Chrissy! LOL it was sooo cute seeing you write "hap hap happies" LMAO LMAO...

Okay I will get some pics of soon! This week!! I have a week off!! See, the store was really busy cuz of Black Friday so I worked Mon, Fri, Sat, Sun..but because of the money thing (only make so much) she gave me off mon & tues THIS week. So I am off til NEXT monday! So i can definatly do some photos by then!!! : )

I'll get some of the teles too!! : ) YAY!

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Still need to get pics (this week I have been doing crazy Christmas shopping, christmas cards, etc so even though it was my week off, I think I have been busier than usual)

But in the meantime quick update.... Been about a week since the Hap Haps were put into the 40 gallon and they are still doing well.... The physical signs of a problem are not gone, but not worse, and most importantly they are still behaving very well... So I gonna stick with the no meds, let immunity build plan : )

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Righto Sue. Sounds good to me. These things can take a long time.

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As predicted, the tank is fully cycled..... : )

Not bad at ALL!! Basically after PPing everything, i added a brand new filter with new biowheels and new cartridges... And added 8 pieces of Fluval Biomax to the filter (4 on each side)... that came from my bucket of growing bacteria.... Two weeks and the tank was fully cycled... Not bad at ALL!!!! PLUS I still have plenty of biomax available for when I get my 55 ready, Or for an emergency! : )

And I am gonna give some to my cousin, because she has had a 55 gallon in her basement for three years and when she found out I know a little about fish, decided it was time to set it up! AND... she's gonna do GOLDIES!!! : ) I am soooooooo thrilled!!!!

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Yay, that's all good news! Your fish are doing great AND you're going to get someone else hooked :D

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Sue,

I'm so happy to hear that ALL is well! :)

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I am impressed it cycled sooo fast...Seeding helps sooo much..You are doing gr88 Sue..hope the hap hap happies (I loved it.. :P:heart ) stay healthy...and happy... :D

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