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CountryLovah

Still Problems With Orandas! :(

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I can't take this!!!

Seriously.... things have been sooo insane and I just can't catch a break... Knock on wood we are still doing great in Telescope world (even Angel who was exposed to all the nasties!!!), but the orandas STILL having issues...

I've got threads all over the place with information.... But they get sooo long so to keep continueing the old ones seems like a pain. So here we go again

First off, been busy this week working on everything as usual. Disinfecting old equipment etc...and potential fish problems!! I can't catch a spare minute!!!!! The last few weeks my three remaining orandas (minus Malibu RIP) have been together in the 40 gallon tank.. I did not add the cycled biomedia to the tank, but kept water perfect with ammo chips and water changes. I wanted to see if I could get this whole ordeal wrapped up for good before adding the cycled media so that I wouldn't contaminate it.

The past few weeks things hadn't changed much. Kahlua still has one weird white dot on her fin, and it changes. (had one before that healed completely) (Some days smaller, some days larger) but has not gone away... Samantha still has some red streaks, (that seem more than just typical white fish streaks)... And a few white areas on her fins.. She HAD pop eye, mouth strings, bad bleeding from body and fins and missing scales at one point as well)..Trinket suggested PP as a treatment, which was tried. But both times it was attempted the first day went well, but the second day the fish behaved very very badly at had to be stopped (conincidentally both times the water turned amber immediately). This was tried twice... Gave up, and hoped perfect water would do the trick..

When I saw there were no big changes, I figured it was okay to add the cycled media.. I transfered Kahlua into a 10 gallon and Miranda and Samantha back into another 10 gallon. Both had been PPed so no leftover bacteria I would hope.. I cleaned out the 40 gallon one final time. I added the PP let it sit overnight.. Then added HP let it sit overnight and then did a 100% water change.... So the fish have been in the 10 gallons no more than 2 days.. Yesterday I saw what appeared to be two missing scales on Samantha... (I inspect them very closely now each day in hopes of catching things early).. It was hard to tell if these were new missing scales or old ones growing back (althought I am pretty certain all the old ones were fully grown back by now... HOWEVER, I wondered if maybe the change in tanks meant change in lighting and I was just seeing something that had been there already).. But today when looking at Sam I am very sure I see something inside her mouth.. It looks like a white lump in her throat and the section underneath her mouth appears pinkish...... Still some red streaks. And maybe I am imagining it because of the possible missing scales but I am thinking her scales look dry...

Trinket time of course, but to me this STILL implies that the columnaris is alive!!! Aren't all these things STILL symptoms of flex??!?!?!

So NOW what?!

Medication history.... They've ALL had salt at 0.3%, all treated with Prazi...

Samantha and miranda have been on contant meds since I had them (bought them June 15, problems the entire six months!) .Samantha & miranda had dimilin in the water due to an anchor worm.. Samantha had a few weeks on MetroMeds due to the pop eye, bottom sitting, etc. Helped for a bit. THEN Samantha and Miranda had one 4 day course of Triple Sulfa to combat the blood, dryness, missing scales, etc.. Noticeable improvement with this med!!!!! Then full 30 days on Metromeds. After MM's there was still spots, etc, some red streaks and Malibu died very quickly to something quite deadly.. This was when the PP was tried, and when that failed Trinket said to go ahead and try Jungle Anti Bac food... They just finished 30 days on that yesterday.

Kahlua has had less medications for the most part besides the salt and prazi... She never had triple sulfa, or Metromeds. She did get the 30 days of Jungle though, and the attempted PP treatments.. (Because she had the white spot and was in the tank with Malibu).

SOOOO Now that I've listed it out AGAIN, now what??? The tanks have all been disinfected multiple times, so there is not much I can do there.. The fish ARE ALL BEHAVING NORMAL as of right now, so I chose to post rather than to just jump the gun. My first thought is maybe the triple sulfa again... Longer this time??? It was the medication that made the most difference. At the time I questioned whether I should do a second course. We thought one was enough, but maybe not? Then maybe since they were still in the infested tank, it just took hold again?? Who knows?? So one thought was to try the Triple Sulfa again... but I know that once I start it I must continue so I thought I would get advice first... These three have been hanging in there for MONTHS with issues, so I am assiming that as long as I keep catching things at the very first sign of a problem that they are strong enough to fight. But clearly there is still a problem here.. As always I am willing to buy ANYTHING. And have many many MANY things on hand....

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGR.

Oh yes.. The question box..... Umm I know that with newbies we need this answered ASAP but in this case, I think I have posted the answers to the box sooo many times... and you guys know I am very serious about my water conditions being spot on. If need be I will totally do it tomorrow, but it's 3am and I have only 4 hours to sleep if I get to bed now. So quickly.. The tanks are kept perfect... I haven't missed a weekly water change since I have been to this board. I do at LEAST 50% often closer to 75%... The tanks were always at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite except for recently when the tank was PPed an ammo chips were used. IN that case, the ammonia on the test sometimes shows up a bit (as is normal when using ammo chips correct?) but the seachem ammonia meter which detects TOXIC ammonia always shows 0ppm or 0.05ppm.. Never even gets to 0.25ppm of toxic ammonia.. PH is contant 8.2.... Once a month 100% changes. ummm.. Yeah thats the basics..

I do still think there is hopefully no RUSH. I am watching them all three right now and they are happy as can be..But the lingerings spot on Kahlua bugs me...And most importantly Samanthas throat (both the bulge and pink under her mouth) have me the most concerned.... Miranda has one thing I have never mentioned. I never thought it to be anything but at this point I am reaching at anything so I'll mention it. Her doral fin. There is a spot on it and at that point it bends... It does semi resemblea pimple but it would be more like a pimple inside the skin.No white showing... I always assumed this was just something genetic, since her doral bends in that location... But who knows now.

I am soo tired... I feel like I haven't relaxed or slept good in 2 months......And everytime I hope that things are settling down, more problems.... UGH..

Edited by CountryLovah

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It strikes me that the most important here is that you get some rest. In spite of some hitches and problems as you say yourself the fish are behaving well This to me always means do nothing but watch and observe. Without sleep it is so easy to make hasty judgements about medicating and make mistakes with water changes and so on. I know you are very frustrated and I am too about the problems that seem to go on and on but your fish are fighting and fighting well. They do need time.

I am very curious about you saying inside Samantha's mouth you can see a white lump. Could this be an ulcer? Is she able to eat well or not? Very often mouth ulcers stop the fish from eating when they get bad.

I am surprised that the Jungle has not helped any. I know there have been many issues going on here and even the flex diagnosis may not be all that's going on. Sometimes there are multiple pathogens at work.

The sulfa meds you say showed the best results. So you know what to use if you have bottom sitting or strange behavior. Right now I think you need some sleep and we should talk again tomorrow.

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Oh Sue.. I'm so sorry. :( Trinket's right - get some sleep! :) (I'm late to this, of course.. so hopefully you've caught some sleep by now!)

I'll be praying for your babies. They've made it through so many medications!! That's wonderful news. So far my Bridget and Angel have, too.

Hang in there! It's so easy to panic.

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Sorry to hear you're still having problems Sue....get well soon little ones :heart

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Without sleep it is so easy to make hasty judgements about medicating and make mistakes with water changes and so on.

Yep! That's exactly why I posted instead of just starting anything.... or adding anything o the tanks.. I have a few hours to kill... I don't have to leave for another 3 hours but I had to get up to get Taylor ready for school.(Sometimes I miss Tanya! lol)

Alright well to explain what I am seeing inside Sams mouth... It looks swollen... Like the rest of the fish open their mouths and for the most part you see an empty space... Right now on Sam it looks almost like it's coming in from all sides... And almost closing up? The most noticble part of that is on the bottom. If her mouth were a open half circle, you could draw a smaller half circle inside... That would be the "lump" where it looks most swollen and the part that was different would be the hollow opening of her mouth. Where the other fish have a hollow mouth when you look inside... Make any sense? Ooh or like a slice of watermelon!!! The lump would be the red section, the green rind would be the open section of her mouth... But there are no problems eating that I can tell..

Do you think I should attempt the PP one more time? For some odd reason everytime it has been applied to the 10 gallons it works, and whenever it is added to the 40 something goes wrong.... Do you think it's worth trying again in the 10 gallons without switching to the 40?? Both times I started in the 10 because the 40 had just been water changed and a lot of Prime was added.. Maybe the Prime was leftover who knows... But I could try it again in the 10's only if you think it would be worth anything...

Otherwise, is there a problem with moving them back to the 40 and adding the cycled bacteria?? I do hate to start out knowing that there is still something bad lurking there if you know what I mean... At this point how does it work?... is any bad bacteria still able to spread in the water and multiply, or at this point is it inside the fish and not spread through the water?

Not doing anything for now : )

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Oh Sue...I am sorry you are still facing problems with the orandas...I hope everything settles down soon...Sam get well soon baby... :heart I hope the lump you are seeing goes away very soon... :hug and yes like Imo says...do take some good deserving :rest: .. :heart

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Aww Sue, as usual no advice, just want ya to know I'm back to praying for them. I had so hoped that they had finally decided to knock it off and be well, sigh. Hang in there kiddo!

:hug

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This must be a very severe strain of flex (or a combination including flex). The nitrafurazone in the Jungle food is usually so effective at curbing systemic flex infections.

If there's an ulcer in Sam's mouth- which yes as you describe could also certainly be a feature of flex- she needs medication before her mouth gets bad and she can't eat. Could you separate her and do a repeat tri- sulfa course as you are leaning toward? Sulfa is a good medication often for flex and aeromonas combination type infections and you saw some improvement which bodes well.

The other fish seem to be coping hun. I wouldn't subject them to the stress of meds if they can deal with this without. Btw that white dorsal pimple on Miranda I think is a normal variation.

The PP is still a mystery. Organic load can make it de-activate/go amber faster- as can any trace Prime. Let me check something and get back on that.

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Thanks everyone for all your good thoughts... God sometimes when things get crazy I just feel soo stressed with all this, and you guys always make me feel better.

Thanks Imo for your as always fantastic advice.... Yep I can seperate Samantha and treat just her with the Triple Sulfa... I will move Miranda in temporarily with Kahlua until you get back to me about whether or not I should try PP again before moving them into the 40 gallon for the final time...

Ammo chips okay to use with Triple Sulfa? Just making sure..

Part of me wants to start the Triple Sulfa tonight... However, another part of me hates starting the treatment when I can't be home to watch them closely... Know what I mean?? Also I would like to do a water change before treatment... Do you think it would be okay to do the water change in the morning before work, then add the Triple Sulfa tomorrow night when I get home, so that I will at least be here to watch for signs of stress? Hopefully there won't be any, especially since she did so well with it last time.. but just in case, I would hate to leave her and find something happened to her..

This must be a very severe strain of flex (or a combination including flex). The nitrafurazone in the Jungle food is usually so effective at curbing systemic flex infections.

Of course my luck is that it is a severe hard to treat strain or combo!! Geeeeez... I do believe the Jungle might have made an improvement on Kahlua's spot.. But it's so hard to tell... There are days I think it's almost gone and then it'll pop back up...

We've considered Furan 2 and decided against it correct? What were the reasons? too Harsh, ph incombatibilites? Or just not the right med at this time in your opinion..

Aww Sue, as usual no advice, just want ya to know I'm back to praying for them. I had so hoped that they had finally decided to knock it off and be well, sigh. Hang in there kiddo!

Thanks Kathy!!! I saw you post about them the other day and it was right when I moved them and I saw sam's spot and I thought "oh no! I wanted to report back with better news"

At least they are hanging in there... After reading Ang's struggle lately and seeing her lose sooo many of them, I am thankful mine are fighting so strongly against whatever it is that has a hold of them... But I was hoping that the fight would be nearing and end... in a positive way!!

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Sue,

I had no idea you were having so many problems with your goldfish. I tend to stick with two forums and that's it. You hang in there, and I will be watching this post and thinking about some treatment plans as well.

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Thanks Jed : ) Yeah it's been non stop problems with them and thats not even counting the pre-kokos fish that were lost..

Good news... Before kokos all the fish died... All of them, and there were A LOT of them... SINCE koko's, I bought 7 new fish... And even though they've all had problems (except for the two from Ken, LOOOOVE him), I've still got 6 out of 7... And honestly Malibu... She went downhill so fast, there really was probably nothing I could have done.. I did beat myself up about it for a while..

So hopefully I can keep it this way!!! : )

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I just did a 100% change on both 10 gallon tanks... When I moved the fish I looked in their mouths as best I could. Miranda appears normal, but there could be one white pimple in the middle of her lip.. It's really hard to tell. I have seen this before, some days it looks like nothing, some days it looks like something.. Samantha's mouth, the swelling went down a little bit, but I saw a few dangling white threads today while she was swimming around. When you look at her mouth outside of the water but open you can't see anything threads (I guess because they can't move in the water). Her mouth is definately more closed off than Mirandas, but it might be better than last night like I said.

I added regular dose prime.. (not double like normal, I know we have high chloramines here). So if I should PP the tank with Kahlua and Miranda that SHOULD be okay to do so tomorrow... And I can add the Triple Sulfa to Sams tonight when I get home, once I know for sure it's okay with the ammo chips, and you still think this it the best choice.. (and not the Furan or something)

TTYL

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Oh yeah, and what the HECK do you want me to feed them now?! lol

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Wow...you are doing gr88 here Sue...hope things sort out soon.. :exactly Get well you guys... :heart ..oh again no real advice Sue... :hug

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Your support is plenty for me J! : ) Just nice to see you behind me as usual and checking up on everything!!! I love ya sweetie!

Oh yeah! And I saw you post on another thread "i'll leave that up to a mod or experienced member"... Ummm think you are considered an experienced member at this point! You're always helpful to people!!!!

Got home just now... happy happy active fish... AND I think the swelling has gone down some more!!!! Is this crazy fish fighting this on her own again?!?! I'm seeing way more of the inside of her mouth now while she is opening and closing.... Not gonna do TriSulfa tonight.. MUST wait for Imo now in case plans have changed....So confused...

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Oh dear! This is really an exhausting problem for you - I'm sorry.

Trinks - just some thoughts about the fish when you next drop in:

Is it possible that over time, the bacteria have developed a strength and resitance to the various treatments that have been tried?

I'm wondering about Kanamycin - it's the only treatment we haven't tried? It seems to be very effective in treating columnaris esp in conjuction with nitrafurazone (although Nf does not work well alone at a higher PH). Kanamycin is well absorbed through the skin, so a good choice once infection has become systemic.

I'm wondering if a combination of dips/ baths with the bucket to bucket system may be a good way to go. By dipping and bathing and tossing the water, the bacteria are continually removed and not provided with any breeding ground outside of the fish.

Obviously, Trinket - you have the superior knowledge when it comes to a call like this - I'm just thinking out loud in case it's of any help.

Regarding the PP dip, I seem to remember that Prime can turn it amber - did you find anything on this?

Really hoping you can get on top of this finally, Sue.

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Thanks Pixie for all that info!! My interent is out so I came to work and logged on.. (they needed me for 2 hours tonight anyway, so I came in early so i could go on kokos but everytime I type someone comes up and needs help even though I am not even on clock yet LMAO

Well, since there is so much that we are still unsure about, and since we haven't heard back from Imo yet, I haven't done anything.. Also because this morning the swelling did appear to have gone down a little more..

If I see anything take a dramatic turn for the worse I will do what I can, but I am going to try to hold on here so I can get Imo's opinion on everything you said, cause it sounded smart to me : )

Thanks for checking in Pix!!! Hopefully my internet at home comes on soon!! UGH! Fish problems and no access to koko's DOES NOT MIX! : )

IF this is the way to go, where can I get kanamycin and also when you say to use it with nitrafurazone, do I need something other than the Furan 2, since it has more than one med> Maybe at fishypharmacy or something is what I am thinking... Probably can get both as powders right??

Edited by CountryLovah

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Ahh! I know exactly what you mean, I had that problem this morning! MUST HAVE KOKO'S! :D

Your babies are such fighters, Sue. I will continue to keep them in my thoughts! You're so great with them.. I admire you so much.

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Oh gee Sue! I am so sorry! What is the deal with our Oranda's? It would be nice to catch a break once in a while!

My sister has been and still is in the hospital with...the docs can't tell. At least I can get on here and get lost a while!

I have been trying to follow all this but...just want you to know I am thinking about you! :flowers

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IF this is the way to go, where can I get kanamycin and also when you say to use it with nitrafurazone, do I need something other than the Furan 2, since it has more than one med> Maybe at fishypharmacy or something is what I am thinking... Probably can get both as powders right??

Well, only if Trinket agrees - you can get Kanaplex (Seachem) or Kana-Pro from the Nat.Fish.Pharm. And furan 2 is, I think, fine.

2 other thoughts - temp and carbon. Do you have carbon in your systems right now? It increases the survival of this disease in hard water which i think you have? So, get it out if so. Columnaris also proliferates at higher temps, so keeping tanks below 75 can help to some extent.

Please wait for Trinket, though - she has a much broader overview than I do and I'd hate to be missing something important and pointing you in the wrong direction.

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Thanks Aims!!! : )

Pix, I will wait for Trinket but thanks for all the great info! You guys are BOTH fabulous!!

Well, no carbon in my systems... I don't ever use carbon just rely on water changes and good bio filtration, so thats not an issue.. Temperatures have been kept between 72 and 74 also.. Heater is set to low and they all stay about 72 when lights are off, and 74 when lights are on..

Oh I am home now and the internet is on! And yes I definately see a huge improvement when it comes to the swelling! Thats good huh?? No more missing scales, but I do believe some small white tufts or threads.. Asolute normal behavior, so it's still not an emergency! : ) YAY!

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This is why waiting a few days while it can be such a gamble pays off so well sometimes. I'm hoping when you post back Sue, things will be even better............. :unsure:

To backtrack to some of Pixies points, kanamycin/Kanaplex is a good combo yes combined with the nitrafurazone in the Jungle food for many columnaris infections especially where tail rot is extensive. And as long as the fish have no bouyancy issues.

Furan (a variation of nitrafurazone) products like Bi-furan, furanace , NOT Furan 2 -which contains methblue -and Binox seem to work on many columnaris mouth rot cases. Furan products work best however in a low pH because this antibiotic group has a very low pH.

It may be you have some aeromonas bacteria here as well that the sulfa meds got to work on. However generally speaking and on second thoughts (unless you have a huge fish) its not a good idea to do second courses of antibiotics. This can also lead to resistance and failure.

I'll wait for your updates Sue and hope you can get online soon.

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Thanks for checking in Imo! : )

Swelling wise Sams mouth is either back to normal, or almost back to normal..It looked sooo weird the other day.... she's been really active so it is hard to get a good look inside without handling her (but I'm happy about the active behavior!) She does still have some very very minute white areas inside the mouth.... They are not getting worse, if anything getting better, and I will say this.. If I hadn't noticed the swelling, which made me start inspecting even closer I would NEVER notice this... There are no more missing scales either....

Considering the improvements I am like 99% sure you will want me to hold off treatment Imo : )

This is why waiting a few days while it can be such a gamble pays off so well sometimes. I'm hoping when you post back Sue, things will be even better............. :unsure:

I know! It's soooo tricky... When I saw the swelling that night I panicked, but waited til morning and when I saw the small change, I thought "leave well enough alone".. Especially because I wanted to talk to you! I was hoping I wouldn't end up waiting too long and having things get worse and then her not be able to eat, but luckily that didn't happen...

Sooo at this point... what should be the plan?? You said you'd rather stay away from the TriSulfa, so I am assiming IF things get worse, the appropriate med to try would be the kanamycin, used in conjuction with more Jungle?? (ONly if things get worse). Or would I use the kanamycin with a furan water med?

Also question... You said that Furan 2 has meth blue.. The package says 60mg Nitrofurazone and 25 mg Furazolidone.. Why is meth blue not listed??

I'm thinking I try the PP one more time, Prime has not been adding for quite some time... And I have the fresh tank ready and waiting in case of emergency... Maybe one more try before moving them into the totally disinfected 40 gallon??

And here's another q (Of course)... If I move them into that tank before things are cleared up for good, is that bad? Will that mean this tank is always harboring the bad bacteria???

Decisions decions..Get back to me when you can lol

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yayyy..good to hear..things are getting better.. :) ..Get well soon Sam..u are doing gr88 Sue...

oh and btw...thnks for the compliments in your previous post...ahem ahem...am not so experienced yet.. :P ..by mod or more experienced member I truly meant really the MODS or you.. :D ...ur a gr88 fish mommy.. :):heart

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