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Blue Has Popeye


lynda441

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[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 5.0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? Main tank. PH: 7.5 GH: 125.3 KH: 71.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? PH: 7.5 GH: 161.1 KH: 89.5

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Drops

[*]Water temperature? Main tank: 76o F

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55-60 gallons running for 1 year, 4 months

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? UG with two Penguin 1140 Powerheads

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 68%-70% every week, 100% every month or so. 100% change done last Sunday

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? oranda, ryukin and ranchu all 3", lionhead 2" and pom pom oranda 1.5" (all measurements don't include tail)

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? NovAqua+

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Once a day. Gel food, frozen bloodworms, krill, mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, spirulina, broccoli, orange

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? No

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Frayed fins, popeye and slight body swelling on Blue the oranda

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? He's active and eating well

I did a 100% water change on the qt tank, added epsom salt and Blue's in there now and he'll start on Medi-Gold tomorrow (I don't have MetroMeds). I'm not sure about the MediGold though as when he got the nip/whatever on his tail and it was just a bit red at the end, I put him on MediGold until after the red went away, which was almost a month. He was in salt then too. His poop has been a little white and stringy, but it seemed to be better this last week; dark and thicker. It's been about 3 weeks since he's been off the med food, but I'm kind of concerned about putting him on it again. Advice on that? I have Jungle Anti-bacterial food if that would make a difference in effectiveness and/or tolerance.

The KH is low, but the PH is fine. I'm attributing the rise in GH and KH from tap to tank to the gravel. Would that be a correct assumption? Should I be concerned about the low KH when the nitrates and ph are okay?

Also, can anyone puhleeze give me some thoughts about how poor Blue could've gotten this bug? I use dedicated cleaning equipment, I've been religious about weekly cleanings and change a good amount of water. The cycle has never crashed, never high ammonia or nitrates. The top is covered except for about a 1" space in the back for the equipment. I need ideas from anyone about where this could've come from. Could I have done some little thing wrong? Maybe I need better filtration? Or can bugs "just happen" like with us humans? It was around July 4th that I lost Leroy to dropsy. Could this same bug have been festering in Blue all this time? Is this going to be "communicable?" What if that little "nip" in Peaches' tail isn't a nip, but the start of this in her? Dang it!

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I'm so sorry your buddy Blue has pop-eye. Do you remember when you first noticed it? How many days has it been like that and is it both eyes? In your pic Blue looks like he has telescope eyes. Is it possible he has had any scratch or abrasion to his eyes from anywhere in the tank at all? Did Leroy that passed 4 months ago also have pop eye? When you say he is bloated is there any pineconing and is the bloating even or one side only (as seen from top). Pop eye and dropsy as combined symptoms means he is having kidney problems, osmoting fluids -so I recommend the Jungle food over the Medigold if those are your 2 choices here.

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Hey Lynda...I am sooo sorry abt Blue... :( ...and am soo sorry abt all these issues...ohhh..I can totally understand its a lil stressful for you at the moment...Trinket has given you some good advice..I would really recommend you to icrease the temperature of Blue's tank to abt 80...its good to have warmer waters when treating for popeye...and epsom is gr888...I won't be able to help you with the cause cos I can see how diligently you have been maintaining everything...but just to let you know...we are all here and keeping my fingers crossed that everything comes back to normal... :heart:hug

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Thank you Imo. I've had Blue since June 2007 and, yes, I've looked at Blue's eyes for a long, long time, but I can't remember how long. I mean, at least for like, 4 months, at least since I lost Leroy, thinking they looked "buggy," and it has concerned me, but I just kept attributing it to "that's just the way his eyes are," because he never looked or acted sick, so now, I don't know. I just can't remember back far enough as far as a history of what his eyes have looked like to remember if they ever looked differently, but as far back as I can remember, his eyes have always been slightly "buggy." I'd refer to pictures, but my previous camera was so crappy, those pictures wouldn't do any good anyway. I don't really even have any because of that.

But, as far as being as popeyed as they were last night, they've never looked like that. I left Saturday morning and he wasn't like this. I came back Sunday night and his eyes were definitely really popped. I should've gotten a picture. It was a DEFINITE difference. It's like there were little white o-rings around his eyes. He looked like a telescope. And yes, it was in both eyes. So, while it could be possible for him to have scratched his eyes on something, how likely is it to have scratched both?

But, wow, maybe the popeye had just happened because, I just looked at Blue about an hour ago and those white o-rings have gone down. And, while I'm relieved to see this, I'm not relaxing yet, for sure. The eyes you see in the pictures are his "normal" eyes and maybe his eyes are still more buggy than normal eyes should be and is something I should worry about as well, but they don't look anything like they did last night. I wish I'd taken pictures.

No, Leroy never had popeye. Leroy, if you remember, got an internal bacterial infection resulting in a couple of small ulcers that never popped, just receded, and after some qt treatment, he appeared to have gotten better, only to have come down with a fatal case of dropsy about two weeks later while I was out of town for the July 4th weekend and he was gone in a matter of a couple of days thereafter. This illness followed a lapse in my cleaning routine and, we assumed, was the cause.

I wouldn't say that Blue is bloated to an extent that I would call it "pineconing," but he's just swollen enough to "emphasize" the scales. They're not really "sticking out." You can see what I mean with the pictures below. And the swelling seems pretty symmetrical. The frayed fins are not edged in white and are not at all ragged looking. They are more like smooth, undulating waves and dips of uneveness. Also, that red streak you see in his tail fin in the picture is virtually not noticeable and I didn't see it until I took the pictures, but I went back and looked again and it is there.

Oh yeah, and I had raised the water temp to 80o F. Blue's poop is thick, but about 50% white/transparent and 50% food colored.

Yeah, I was thinking of going with the Jungle food because, clearly, the MediGold didn't work. I'm obviously fighting something that is resistant to or not affected by the meds in the MediGold, which is maybe why Leroy didn't get better either. I PM'd Amy to see if she has any MetroMeds I can borrow, but I'll go with the Jungle for now. What about using medicated gel food, assuming I could find it, or anything else? I can't really afford to buy the MetroMeds, but I will if that's what you think will work best and if Amy doesn't have any. Any other suggestions for me? I forget: will filter media remove epsom salt?

Oh, and thanks so much JC!

POPEYE2.jpg

POPEYE11.jpg

Edited by Lynda Von G
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OK well you know your fish best and can notice pop-eye best and also bloating. In those pics I can't to be honest see anything too bad BUT I do not know his looks and you do and since you say there was a definite from buggy eye to pop eye chnage then you can be sure something's up. So I would add epsom, raise the temp slightly as JC picked up on and you are doing and feed the Jungle if you can't get MMs. Reason NOT to use Medigold is that it contains the aminoglycide kanamycin which is very harsh on kidneys. Any kind of bloat including unilateral popeye indicates kidney malfunction so IMO medigold is not advised. Jungle also works on some of the opportunistic pathogens in all tanks that can cause retention/infection in any fish that has been stressed. As for cause, it comes down to thinking where the stress came from.

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Yeah, I know. The pics I posted don't look all that bad, which is what is giving me the most hope, but those eyes last night really freaked me out! But, now, with the eyes you see, which have been Blue's "normal," is it possible to have eyes like that that are normal or is that just very mild fluid buildup that finally got a little worse? I know, I know. It could be either... so how am I ever going to know if the little bugger gets well. Fin repair I guess. And better poop....

Last night I got him in epsom salt and raised the tank temp to, well, it's around 79 degrees (measurements are in increments of 2 and it's between 78 and 80). It's a bit too tricky to get it to stick right at 80, but I can up it to 80-82 degrees if that would be better. He isn't bottom sitting at all. Swimming and active. I haven't heard from Amy yet, and dinnertime isn't for about another 3 hours, so Jungle will be fed then if I don't hear from Amy. I will NOT use MediGold. Thanks for clarifying the reason why not. And glad to know why Jungle should be used sometimes! As far as thinking about where the stress may have come from, I have a list of causes of fish stress that I got from a website, so I'll have to review those to see what may be the cause because my first response would be that I haven't done anything to cause stress, but obviously, I did something/something has happened.

Now, in order to determine whether this could be the/a stress factor, could Blue have been harboring this bacteria clear back from when I had the bad tank maintenance issues that caused Leroy's death? That is, can a bacteria lie basically dormant, at least visually, for several months, and could the same bacteria manifest itself in almost a completely different way than Leroy's, or, because of the different symptoms, is this a completely different bacteria?

Edited by Lynda Von G
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Well, Blue had his first meal of Jungle Anti-Parasite food and still has his healthy, piggy appetite. He ate probably 8-10 pieces, so that's good.

I've reviewed some causes of stress and just can't really put my finger on anything in an "ah hah!" sort of way anyway.

1. Sudden changes in pH. I have a low KH, but the pH has still remained stable, but I don't know if a low KH can affect things even if the pH stays stable.

2. Sudden changes in water temperature. No.... some changes, but nothing extreme either in degree variance or speed with which it happened.

3. Insecurity. He's had plenty of social interaction and, until recently, places to hide and coverage, so, unless it's a seratonin imbalance..... lol!

4. Poor diet. They get fed a decent and wholesome variety, but it does lean on more protein than veggies though.

5. Poor water quality. As far as ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, there's never been a problem. Bacterial, well, I don't have a microscope and wouldn't know what to look for if I did.... I've allowed algae to remain and never stripped the tank squeaky clean, but do clean the tank well and vacuum quite thoroughly at each water change, but who knows.... there still may be some nasties in there..... Maybe I need to consider another filtration setup.... I know pretty much everyone would agree on that... ;)

6. Water toxin. I use a dechlorinator, but, with that 1"-2" gap all across the back (and when I was using the fan during the hot summer months, there was a lot of open area on the tank and the glass sliding door was left open, screen shut, pretty much 24/7) something could've floating in on the air.... and, many times I have stuck my hands in the water before remembering I didn't wash them first... shut up! I know... I'm being better at this now...

7. Lack of sufficient oxygen. There's tons of tiny bubbles constantly whirling around in the water, so I really doubt this is an issue. Blue and Jackson like biting bubbles at the surface, but I think this is really for fun, I don't think they're looking for oxygen.

8. Overcrowding. Five fish in a 55-60 gallon tank. I'm at the minimum per fish and, someday, if/when they get real big, I'll have a problem, but I don't think this is an issue now, especially as the readings are always very low.

9. Physical stress. Handling: only once a month during water changes, but, the weeklies could cause stress I suppose what with the vacuum going back and forth all over and they all insist on sticking their noses in the middle of everything. I haven't seen any "wounds."

10. Infection. I'm still leaning toward this one thinking maybe he's just been carrying something all this time from back in July. So, I need to decide if bacteria can lay low and "stew" for this long.

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Noooo not Blue!!! No more popeye.. I hate that word, and what it can lead to.. The other horrible word...

You sound like you are doing everything right, (of course you are! But reassurance is always good), and of course with Imo you've got the best help ever.... When Samantha had pop eye, I noticed it, even though no one else could, and like with Blue, it went down fast, and she recovered. It took many things, and there were many problems but as of now she is doing well, so hopefully the same can be said for Blue..

I gave Sam the MM's... IF you don't hear from Amy, I can send you my MM's...I've had them for 5 months.. And I was going to buy a new batch soon anyway, because I like to have them on hand unopened. I used them a few weeks ago, so they should still be good, and I've kept them sealed tight and in a cool dry place (as cool as you can get in summer lol).. If you want them, they are yours...Just PM me with your address..

Get better Blue!!!!!! Please!!!

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Well, as I said, I started Blue on the Jungle food tonight, but that only goes for 5-10 days, and why do I think it's gonna take more med food than that? I mean, this bug has been lingering in him for at least a month and a half, if not longer. And what if any of the other kids get it, god forbid?! I mean, Peaches does have that nip/whatever in her tail. What if that is this bug?

Amy doesn't have any med food at all, and it would be good to have some MMs on hand and I could give Amy some of them, even if they're only good for 1 month more. That would be great if you could send them to me. I'm gonna PM you my address, okay? What's the protocol for feeding one med food after the next? Should you or shouldn't you?

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Well, as I said, I started Blue on the Jungle food tonight, but that only goes for 5-10 days, and why do I think it's gonna take more med food than that? I mean, this bug has been lingering in him for at least a month and a half, if not longer. And what if any of the other kids get it, god forbid?! I mean, Peaches does have that nip/whatever in her tail. What if that is this bug?

Amy doesn't have any med food at all, and it would be good to have some MMs on hand and I could give Amy some of them, even if they're only good for 1 month more. That would be great if you could send them to me. I'm gonna PM you my address, okay? What's the protocol for feeding one med food after the next? Should you or shouldn't you?

Lynda, I have loads of the MetroMeds left from Nip. I see Sue is sending you some but if you need more let me know and I'll send some as well.

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Oh my! Look at all the sweet help I'm getting! Now see why I love all of you?! I PM'd Sue, but she hasn't responded back. Lemme see how soon she responds. Given how long a package would take via regular mail, if one of you sent it out right away, it would probably get here just in time for me to be ending the Jungle food. Thanks Kath, I'll let you know!

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Hey Lynda...I know too Sue is sending some...I am closer :) ...lemme know if you need some..I can send it across..maybe will reach you faster...did tht just sometime back for another member in CA..reached her faster.. :) ..lemme know.. :)

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Thank you too JC! I'll let you know! Sweetie!

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Hey Lynda!!! I've got it together in a package and am gonna stop off at the post office on the way to work in about half hour.. I'll send it priority mail so it should get there in 3 days..

Since it's already together, and she they should get there right when they are needed anyway, J and Kathy you can hold on to yours for future emergencies LOL

Get well Blue!! Let me know when they get there Lynda! : )

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I know! Really! Emergency help all the way from Pennsylvania to California! Could you get your "friend" at work or your neighbor to be so giving? I doubt it! Love you Sue! Thanks!

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Sorry about the fish hun - I only just caught up. But, how about Koko's for a super-friendly and supportive forum? Everyone offering to mail meds is really something, isn't it?

I have to say he looks beautiful in the pics! You took very clear and well-focussed shots.

I hope he feels better soon.

BTW - Have you thought of getting a UV? They are very good, especially if there is something nasty lurking in the tank. Bacteria can multiply so quickly that with some strains even high volume and regular water changes will not be enough to keep them at bay.

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I HAVE been thinking about improving on the filtration, but didn't want to totally change out everything. A UV is an EXCELLENT idea! I may not be able to get one for a while, but I think that's what I will be looking into! Thanks!

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Ooooh Pixie what a fabulous idea! I may look into that as well, since I've had non stop problems!!!

Lynda, I don;t have time to chat alot tonight. I am tired, and I thought I could sleep in tomorrow but I can't.. Shane's sister has turned into an evil demon and flipped out about 3 days ago and flipped out and is moving... She has turned into a nightmare, I never thought Tanya would do this. So now she tells me last minute even though technically she is arguing with her brother and NOT me, that she will not be getting up tomorrow even though she was supposed to all along as part of her agreement here... WHat a *&*W#

Anyway, so I wanna get to bed BUT i wanted to sign on and let you know that the package was mailed and he said it could come in 2 days. He said it's 2-3 typically, not guaranteed but usually. SO I hope it;s there before the weekend. Let me know when you get it.. : )

It would have been $15 to overnight it....and I know Blue needs to finish out the Jungle ANWAY, so I figured that was a waste...

Again, Get well Blue... : )

OH YEAH

Could you get your "friend" at work or your neighbor to be so giving? I doubt it!
I know right! I can't even get my sister to get up as promised! Real life friends suck LMAO But it's okay Lynda.. You are paying me back by letting me come visit you so I can check out LA and giving me a tour when I have money saved.... hehe.. Maybe not, Then we would be REAL friends and we might not be so nice to each other LOL Edited by CountryLovah
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I didn't follow all of your story, dear Sue; clearly you're stressed about this, but I did get the part about Tanya saying she was moving out and I didn't quite get whether you were good with this, but, frankly, I can't imagine why you wouldn't be. That child, and I emphasize child, has been nothing but problems for you and the best thing for you, forget whether it's the best thing for her, would be for her to move as far away from you as possible. So, what this getting up thing is, I don't know, but PLEASE!, let her move out!

Anyway, I would've shot you if you'd spent money on overnight shipping! You're sweet just doing what you've done.

And, you are most definitely welcome to come visit any time you want! I would love to have you and I know that Amy and Roni would love to see you as well and maybe, if you did come to visit, we could even get JC to come on down from up north! Oh, and for whomever else from Cali, you'd totally be welcome too!

Anyway, I hope your day will have gone well, despite familial squabbles.

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Ohh sorry for the confusion.. lol

Well... as for her moving out. There are two negative things. One, I gotta wake up lol And you know I like sleep. And two, money. She was giving us $400 rent money each month and my mom could really use that.

BUT, other than that I am sooo thrilled.. I am not pissed about her leaving, I was pissed about her recent behavior. She has gotten worse, brattier, and more disrespectful, and I was actually being angry last night because I was thinking about all the problems she has caused lately, especially in the last week.. So no, I was NOT upset that she is moving... Her mom is flying in tonight.. She will be gone within a few days. We strongly suggested to her mother that she get some sort of psychological help. She probably won't do it... but she really needs it...

It's so shocking just because she used to be the sweetest child, and now she is just such a little.... ugh...

So other than money, I cant wait for her to get the *%*& out of my house!!!!! LOL

YAY, California here I come!!!

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Sue, save up money and come for a visit. We will give you fabulous tours...I promise. And (this is a little known fact) Geoff and I are a bit of Disney fanatics which means I can give you a great Disneyland tour...and we have such amazing beaches here! You will love it.

Lynda, don't forget that I am going to watch your babies for you next time you go out of town...I don't want you stressing about Thanksgiving.

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yayyyy...LA tour with all the gurlzzz...awesome plan...Am in..:)Sue we are all waiting.. :P ....Aww and soo sweet of you Amy to offer care in Lynda's absence..I really love this place....awesome ppl... :)

BTW, Lynda...how does Blue look today??and Peaches...how are his fins???

Edited by SunshineGurl
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