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Trimming Wen On Oranda


jody

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I hope this is the right place to post this. My oranda has been going through some tough times lately battling fin rot, swim bladder problems and his wen has completely covered his eyes. I treated his fin rot with salt before and had great success and I am about to start the salt again. I have ordered Pro-Gold and I should have it by Monday for his swim bladder. But I am having a hard time watching him floating upside down for about 2 months, and now he is just swimming in spirals.

I really had a moment last night and I think it might be time to let him go. But I want to really improve his life. I think the first thing right now is to give him his sight back, I think this may improve his life significantly. I cant see much of a life swimming in circles in a corner without sight and floating upside down while sleeping. That is the only time he seems to be at peace is when he sleeps.

I went to the health food store today and they can get clove oil but it will take 3 weeks. Perhaps I can try and do my best while we have this time together.

I hope with help I can cure all these problems. The first one I want is trimming the wen. I figure let him see for the last bit of his life.

I have picked up a new pair of nail siccors, iodine, and a small container to keep him in while I do the trimming. I am really nervous to do this as I couldnt bear to hurt him or poke his eye out. I cannot really even see where his eyes used to be. This is one massive wen. Biggest I have seen in all the pictures I have been browsing on this forum. This is an older picture of him I took back when I was trying to cure his finrot a while back but you can see his wen. http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/j...74/DSC00119.jpg

Ok so I put him in the container with pristine tank water and pick him up gently and trim the parts away, then dab the area with iodine. The bottle of iodine has a skull on it and says not to get in your eyes. How can this be safe to use on his wounds near his eyes? The bottle says iodine tincture bp 2.5%.

I can see you all need the tank parameters before tackling this. I will try and post these tonight as I am at work right now.

I'll post what I can for now:

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level?

Coming soon

[*]Nitrite Level?

Coming soon

[*]Nitrate level?

Coming soon

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

Coming soon

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

7.6

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

All drops. Ammonia - API. Nitrate and Nitrite - nutrafin. PH -API

[*]Water temperature?

22

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

18 gallon running for 6 months

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)?

2 filters. Wisper 10-30 and Aqua-tech 5-15

[*]How often do you change the water and how much?

twice a week. 30% on wed or thurs and 50% on sunday

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size?

two goldfish 1 black moor 2 inches, i red capped oranda 3-4 inches

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners?

aqua-safe. api aquarium salt - 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. going to go back to .3% this sunday after huge water change

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often?

used to feed wardley floating pellets. have been using nutrafin max sinking pellets for a week. pro-gold will be here monday. peas sometimes, tried peas for 5 days straight about two weeks ago, trying to help swim bladder.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank?

No

[*]Any medications added to the tank?

Started melafix 4 days ago

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

Oranda has bloody streaks and frayed fins, and white spots on fins which started about a month ago.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

Swims in circles in a corner.

What do you think?

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Aww your poor oranda. :( I wish I had something to add on the topic, but I'm not experienced with wen goldfish.. although I do have one that suffers from swim bladder disease. I'm myself struggling as of today on her situation, she seems to be having a horrible time.

I wish you and your oranda the best of luck! Hopefully once he's been trimmed things will get better for him and he'll improve. :)

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WEn trimming is never a good idea, in my personal opinion. It is not quite like cutting finger nails or hair. You are cutting tissue. True - there are few blood vessels and such in the wen and it will not bleed heavily and should heal rapidly but there are a few things you may wish to consider before attempting this.

1. When a fish is injured - and trimming the wen is inducing injury, albeit in a "sterile" environment - it has to have a good immunity for healing properly. That injury opens the fish up to opportunisitic parasites and viruses and bacteria. If the fish is stressed or not doing well before the trimming even happens, those problem can bloom to deadlly proportions overnight. This is why you will not have doctors doing elective surgery if the patient even has so much as a cold - it is not wise to introduce stress and trauma when the body is already not at it's peak in immunities. The body cannot heal when it is stuggling to deal with other problems.

2. If the fish's wen has grown to such proportion that the eyes are hidden, chances are that the eyes have already gravitated to the surface of the wen for many months/years. This happens naturally. As the wen increases in size, the body produces "stalks" that the eyes sit on. The stalks elongate, allowing the eyes to ride on the surface of the wen. It is not unusual for a person to trim the wen away, yet find that the eyes were supported by the wen. The eyes are lost in the procedure.

3. I have never, ever, known of a fish that had a wen trimmed that stayed that way. If the fish survives the wen trimming, within months (sometimes many, sometimes few) the wen regrows the way the genetics of the fish have dictated that it should.

JMO

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Wow that has certainly given me second thoughts about going through with trimming the wen. I would have to have him in optimal health first and then there is the chance he will not be able to see anyway.

I called our pharmacy and found some clove oil. I am having a hard time watching him suffer. All he is doing is spiraling into a corner like he is trying to swim into the corner.

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The topic title should have more been like a fish with multiple problems. I have been keeping goldfish for a little over a year now.

Here is a horror story that happened with him about 5 months ago. I was siphoning water out of the tank and the vacuum tube sucked him up and was stuck on his wen, only happened for about 10 seconds. I panicked, grabbed him and tried to pull him out, he was stuck so I pulled the hose off the other end and that relieved the pressure and he fell out of the tube. Instantly he was upside down and pieces got ripped from his wen. His wen had blood spots on the wen from being sucked out. I felt really bad about this and never did post this because it scared me and I just wanted to put it behind us. A few pieces of his wen came off over the next few weeks and the blood spots went away. Also there was a piece of his lip that got ripped from this and it still dangles to this day sometimes it goes in his mouth and he tries to chew it and then spits it back out. I thought to share this story as maybe I ruptured his swim bladder pulling him from the tube.

The upside down floating started after this incident like a couple months later

Edited by jody
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I am so sorry to hear about your guy :( I would be in a fine state too watching something like that, but would likely not be able to think about cutting anything! Daryl's information on wen cutting was very interesting - especially the part about the eyes graviating to the surface on the wen on "stalks". I never would have guessed.

If as Hidr says it may not be related to his wen but an illness, does that mean that a healthy goldfish can be perfectly fine with no unusual behaviours if his eyes are completely obstructed??

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Does not sound like that has anything to do with his wen. Sounds like he is sick.

Well, obviously not in prime condition. Sounds like he's a little fragile at the least.

Here's what I would suggest:

1. Don't worry about the size of the wen unless he can't eat. I have an Oranda with a big when, she can't see but still blunders around and eats up. She also sit's in a glass box much of the time (unless there's food) - probably feels safe from the current, and lateral line felt but unseen things.

2. Do everything possible to keep the water clean as possible, consider bare bottom for the tank if it has gravel now. You're on the edge for sufficient water right now, and gravel makes it less healthy and takes up space that could be there for water. Also, bare bottom makes it easier for the sightless one to find and suck up food - like a wet finned vacuum cleaner.

3. At least one feeding a day, give him slightly cooked fresh vegetables that go through his gut quickly. Broccoli, spinach, fresh peas - something that he can find and eat that will clean him out. The other feeding can be things like ProGold, or frozen brine shrimp or bloodworms - quality protien. No floating pellets.

4. Watch the nitrates. My fish are noticably tippier, to mostly upsidedown, when they get mostly processed food and the nitrates are up. My Ferrero was upsidedown for 2 days when I got back from a 5 day holiday during which she was fed just processeed food.

And try to think of your fellow as a special bumperfish, with a fabulous wen, who needs healthy food and pristine water.

Good luck,

Dunderhead bumperfish in a box:

20080412-131914_800.jpg

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If as Hidr says it may not be related to his wen but an illness, does that mean that a healthy goldfish can be perfectly fine with no unusual behaviours if his eyes are completely obstructed??

If you don't consider swimming in circles, bouncing off of aquarium walls and decorations, or hanging out quietly in small places "unusual behavior" - then a healthy goldfish without sight will be perfectly fine.

They will probably be a little skittish. When the tank gets bumped, or the other fish scatter - they feel it in the lateral line but can't see it. Without sight, they know something is going on, but can't decide if it's a danger or not by looking at it. They can percieve light changes through the wen, so turning on the light and shadows passing over an unlit tank can make them jump and bounce off a wall. As long at there's no dangerous ornaments it should be more humorous than dangerous.

If they can still find food - they will be fine. That goes for goldies that lose their eyes for other reasons too.

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Thanks! your picture of your fish has brought some sunshine into my dreary state. I have bare bottom, went that way after he got a rock stuck in his mouth and almost died. I want to put something in the tank for him to get away in. My concern with something glass was that he would run into it and it would break against the side of the tank, sometimes he takes off like crazy and swims until he runs into something, he is a strong fish. Gotcha on the feeding, I have peas and broccoli. I'll be checking the parameters ASAP. He is defiantly special to me.

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I want to put something in the tank for him to get away in. My concern with something glass was that he would run into it and it would break against the side of the tank, sometimes he takes off like crazy and swims until he runs into something, he is a strong fish.

If the container has a thick wall, there should be no issue. There's a lot less inertia in the fish than you think. The square glass vase in my tank has never been budged a bit. Consider how much effort they put in to pushing around 1 inch marbles for food - and you'll know what I mean.

Also, make sure it's got room to manouver. If your Oranda has equivilent intelligence to mine, he'll get himself into a small spot and not know how to get out.

20080608-225418_800.jpg

I suspect your fellow has my Charlie beat, but here's a start for a "wen off."

20081012-124858_800.jpg

Get your guy healthy - then post a proud pic of that huge wen.

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My Tuck's wen completely covers his eyes as well. He can't see much for sure but he finds his food ok. As long as I keep the tank decorations simple and do not move things around on him he gets along just fine. He seems to memorize where everything is.

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My Tuck's wen completely covers his eyes as well. He can't see much for sure but he finds his food ok. As long as I keep the tank decorations simple and do not move things around on him he gets along just fine. He seems to memorize where everything is.

And people say goldfish have 2 second memories! So untrue!

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This now has nothing to do with his wen so maybe the topic should be renamed but I don't know how to do that.

ok here goes. I got home and here are the rest of the specs:

*]Ammonia Level?

0

[*]Nitrite Level?

0

[*]Nitrate level?

5

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

7.2

If you have time please watch this 3.5 minute video of him and his behavior. He spends 90% of his time on his back and the other 10% swimming about. Sometimes he acts fine and swims all around the tank but only for a few seconds and then goes onto his back again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaBdMgBAaU

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Oh poor Fry. :( He's such a pretty fish.. I'm praying for him! Hopefully you can get him back to good health. :)

Thanks. I hope he will get better when I get the Pro-Gold. It is supposed to arrive on Monday but I am hoping it comes today. I know one thing for sure his swim bladder needs some special care. I remember a post from Koko saying once they are on their back for a while then it is hard to get them upright again. Well I look forward to more of all your replies. Everyone here is so helpful and kind.

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I hate to double post but I am learning things here on this forum the more I read. I may have figured out what has caused my Oranda (named Fry) to act this way. I read Swim Bladder Explained by daryl and I think that I have been overfeeding him. I always fed him Wardly Floating Pellets. I would soak some in tank water for a few minutes and then pour it into the tank. Half of it would sink and the other half would float. The half that sank he would gobble up in about 5 minutes the other half would float for hours eventually settling in the corner where Fry likes to hang out. I didnt think this was a problem. I got the brainwave that maybe I needed sinking pellets and then he would get what he needs right away and no more hours of nibbling. Everyone here mentioned Pro-Gold is a good sinking pellet so I started my hunt. I couldnt find it anywhere locally and I finally found it online which it will be here on Monday. I did find a sinking pellet: Nutafin Max Sinking Pellets, and I have been feeding this for a week. I have been following the instructions of only feeding enough for him to eat in two to three minutes. Now I think he keeps swimming into that corner because that is where the old food would settle for hours. Now that I have him on this new regime he is still trying to get that food which used to be there. Have I caused permenant damage?

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Have I caused permenant damage?

I dunno about "permanant damage." If you mean will he stay upsidedown forever - there's no way of knowing. Do what you can and see how he responds.

About the pro-gold. It's very concentrated stuff. start out feeding half of what you think is right. He'll grab up a few and chew, and chew some more, and chew even more. If he doesn't finish it all in 5 minutes, feed less.

The pro-gold is good, but it's not a cure for tippiness. For this he needs vegetables.

Here's another broccoli story: http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...st&p=808410

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Thanks! I hope I can get him back upright. I will try the broccoli, I know they like peas. I did get him a glass hideout yesterday, he went in it once and did get turned around in it and got out just fine so I am not worried about leaving it in the tank today while I am away. I think it will take some time for them to figure out what it is.

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