New Fish Have White At End Of Fins

[uberleslie]

My new fish Kenobi (ryukin) started showing a bit of white on the edges of his tail fin about a week ago. I've kept params stable, and Sephie (oranda) looked good. Upon closer inspection today, they're both showing a little white on the edges. Like the beginning of fraying?

Details

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - just under 10

Ph - 8.0

KH - 89+

Temp - 72

Tank - 20 gallon, running since Oct 1, Emperor 280 filter

Water - change about every two days initially, this week only 1 change because params were good; use Prime and Buff-it-Up

Fish - ryukin and oranda, both tiny -- maybe 1 inch-ish?

Medications - Did a 7 day course of Prazi early October

Any ideas? Should I maybe salt to 0.1%? Do another course of Prazi?

----

So, then Starbuck:

She's has consistenly been bottom-sitting for over a month now. One or two days out of it, she's been active...but otherwise she's only active at feeding. One thing about her activity...when she is active, she seems to stick around the surface (not necessarily gasping, but at the surface nonetheless) and randomly swim upsidedown (though it seems like she can quickly regain control).

Details

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 5 (just did w/c -- before was about 20, test is hard to read!)

Ph - 8.0

KH - 89+

Temp - 74

Tank - 29 gallon, running since September, Emperor 400 filter

Water - once a week, 80% change; use Prime and Buff-it-Up; also added crushed coral to filter and mixed in with gravel substrate

Fish - oranda and common

Medications - Salted to 0.1% yesterday

I know it's a matter of getting the water stable and keeping it there...which it has been lately. Am I just being impatient? I'm just wondering if there's something going on that meds might help? Other than bottom-sitting, only other signs are redder than usual tail streaks (they seem to come and go), and she's lost a couple scales this week.

Should I bring up salt? Maybe do a Prazi course?

Thanks in advance for any advice... let me know if I've left any details out.

[Trinket]

Is the 20 gallon your new fish are in- cycled?

That white chalky smudge on fin edges is usually either a sign of healing (scar tissue) or it maybe water or stress related.(Unless there are tears or perforations or actual rot.)

The low salt is probably a very good idea for both tanks.

Starbuck hasn't shown any improvement in spite of the pH being stable now? Does the flipping occur after eating or a water change or is it random?

[Quasi]

You are certain that is not 'new tail growth'? All my comets their tails have been growing non stop for the last 6 months, but their colour doesn't seem to folow that fast so they end up with 2 mm of white on there tail. It looks like a white see-through edge on their otherwise orange tail.

If it is clearly a smudge than ignore what I have said

[uberleslie]

The new tank is cycled...though I'm still testing daily, because I don't trust it yet! But I haven't seen any ammonia for 2.5 weeks and no Nitrites at all. The Nitrates get up to 10 and I do a waterchange.

The white is more a white edge on their tails, not so much any smudge.

For Starbuck, the flipping over I've seen happen a couple times on her 'active' days. Her little routine is that she swims to the surface between the filter outputs (where the water is calm) then floats into the flow and swims the current down, then after doing that over and over, she'll start floating upside-down. Not at the surface though, she floats mid-level probably.

I've notice that her couple active days are usually on the weekend day before I'm about to do a water change.

[Trinket]

Hmm. When Starbuck is active and before she does the turns in the bubbles how is her swimming style? Any lopsided swimming or difficulty swimming? When fish feel "full" they seem to get some relief from coursing the bubbles like that. Does she look bloated? Have you seen any poop at all and if so what kind and when was the last time?

Also are there any body marks at all on Starbuck, like pin prick red dots or tail erosion or color fade or cloudy eye?

The new fish: When they arrived did you notice any tail erosion at all? They looked perfect? Usually white edge means white cell heaing/ repair..If there is any red at all in the white then you have infection. Any chance of a pic?

[uberleslie]

Starbuck doesn't really swim lopsided, though when she scoots along the bottom she turns lopsided when she bounces of a stone or whatnot. She never really swims in/on the bubbles...she just rides the filter current.

It's so hard to see poop from these fish. I fed peas on Sunday and saw some green poo. Sometimes when I think I see hers (it's smaller than Fisher's) it's food-colored with white mucous almost. Does that make sense?

No noticeable marks on her body, no cloudy eye...maybe a smidge of fade around her face/wen area. Hard to tell because she's white!

For the new fish: Neither had noticeable white when I got them. There is no red. Just white/jagged edges.

They are ridiculously hard to get a picture of...they're so jittery!

Best I could do:

And one of Starbuck if it helps:

For Starbuck, I'm just starting to wonder if she's going to perpetually have issues...and I'm okay with that, if she's sorta sickly always. But if there's something going on that's making her this way that I can fix, I'd really hope to. I just know that there have been times when she's *normal* and she doesn't seem normal now.

[Trinket]

A good owner definitely has an instinctive feel for when their fish is not behaving normally and I do think that if you feel she is not behaving normally something is up. I understand your concern. The thing is it is a very tricky thing to diagnose bottom sitting without any other symptoms. And prescribing random meds can often make things worse.The red in her tail is really very minimal and very normal in fact for a white fish.

If you had the time and patience a few days of "Starbuck journal" keeping might point you to a trigger. For example does she always b.sit after feeding? Or does she get more active in the early morning when the lights may be dimmer/not on etc. Finding a fishes sensitivities in fish that have them is also part of getting to know your fish. Wenned fancy fish are very diferent from streamline fish like Fisher and a little bottom sitting is not so uncommon for some of them. They are top heavy and their inside organs are so squashed they are prone to food issues and balance issues.

The white petticoat raggedness I can just make out looks like the after effect of flukes to me with the white indicating repair. You could perhaps do another few days prazi in the QT ( just incase 7 days didnt catch some hatch outs) and also another few days at 0.3% salt.

I don't personally think any of the problems here warrant any other water meds or med food just yet. I would like to know more about Starbucks poop (white mucous is often a digestion problem) and how long she is bottom sitting for at one time and if Fisher has at any time been nudging her tummy.

[uberleslie]

I'll try to keep a Starbuck journal for a few days and see that I notice. I'll try to play find the Starbuck poo too. Fisher doesn't seem to be nudging her any more than usual...only when she floats in between him and a bit of kibble. He is laying next to her lately.

The new guys have been dosed again with Prazi and are at 0.1% salt now. I'll bring up to 0.3% as they tolerate it...not sure if they're salt sensitive yet.

[uberleslie]

Oh no, now Sephie is covered in white with what appear to be white, fuzzy dots everywhere. I just noticed a minute ago...I don't think it was there when I fed them this morning.

Water params:

ammonia - 0

nitrate - less than 10, more than 5

nitrite - 0

ph - 8

kh - 89ish

they've had prazi and 0.1% salt since monday night. i'm reluctant to add additional salt at the moment because i'm not sure if that's what is triggering this? or is it ich? every time i've ever seen ich, they're little raised white dots...but she is generally fuzzy with fuzzy white spots (not really raised).

Pictures of the impossible to catch Sephie...

I'm not seeing anything on Kenobi. If anything, it looks like the white edge on his tail is improving.

[uberleslie]

Update from previous post. Now Sephie is just covered in white, but the spots have noticeably diminished.

[Trinket]

Just saw the pics Leslie. Thats ich. You need to bring up the salt to 0.3% even if all those white spots have long since gone. The eggs will be hatching out in the gravel. Its easy to transfer ich so you may well be looking at dosing both your tanks. This would explain the white tipped fins too- parasites can do that.

Ich weakens the slime coat and fuzz/fungus grows where the parasites have eaten away at the skin so the spots can look fuzzy.

[uberleslie]

Aaahhh! That's what I was afraid of!

So I've got the 20 gallon with my little ones up to 0.2% salt. And, of course, that was the last of the salt! So I'll go out and buy some after work tomorrow and dose the 20 gal up to 0.3% and get the big tank to 0.2%.

Should I do a dose of Prazi in the big tank, just in case?

I have already been sharing equipment between the tanks...and unfortunately, I'll probably have to continue to.

[uberleslie]

So, little ones are at 0.3% salt and Prazi. I'll continue Prazi until a w/c on Sat/Sun. Big guys are at 0.2% salt.

Lots of ?s...

1. How long do I continue salt?

2. Should I bring Fisher + Starbuck to 0.3% salt or leave at 0.2%?

3. Should I dose Fisher + Starbuck with Prazi.

4.Will salt kill the ich or should I buy another med?

[Trinket]

I expect any flukes are long since dealt with but they may have brought on the ich. Get some more salt and get the tank/s up to 0.3% asap. If your new fish seem very intolerant and gasp you can actually do 0.3% one day and 0.2% the nextonce the ich spots have fallen off alternating and still disturb and eliminate the ich hatching out cycle. Continue this for 6 days after you see the very last spot. Ich spots tend to stay on the fish about 6 days and tehn fall off to hatch their larvae in the gravel. Extra daily gravel vacs help eliminate them. Raising the tank temp will speed it all up and you can get done faster.

edit: Just saw the new post. Salt is the best way to rid ich. Very gentle. I have read so many threads where OTC meds have killed the fish. They are so weakened by the ich it happens fast- salt will NOT hurt or stress the fish too much and will kill ich dead -always if done correctly.

I hate ich. It appears out of nowhere and is a real pain but I have treated it successfully many times with salt.

I think maybe Starbuck and Fisher should get prazi too. You should really salt them to 0.3% too. But watch for Starbucks reaction as you take the salt up- as I know shes not 100% right now. You could do it in slower increments..0.5% at a time.

[uberleslie]

Gotcha. The new guys don't seem too intolerant. They've been at 0.3% for about an hour now. They bob at the surface now and again, but no continual gasping.

I'll get the big tank up to 0.3% tomorrow and keep them there through next weekend (so I'll bring up to 0.3% after this weekend's w/c)...or longer if needed. Sephie is looking way less white. I can see some fuzz, but no dots. I think a good weekend gravel vac and cleaning will help too.

Thanks, Imo. I love it when I can quickly catch you for advice...I owe you sooooo much.

EDIT: I have Fisher/Starbuck with Prazi now too. Starbuck is just acting angsty as usual, but no noticeable harsh reaction. I've turned their tank lights off early to give them a rest.

Edited October 23, 2008 by uberleslie

[Trinket]

Gotcha. The new guys don't seem too intolerant. They've been at 0.3% for about an hour now. They bob at the surface now and again, but no continual gasping.

I'll get the big tank up to 0.3% tomorrow and keep them there through next weekend (so I'll bring up to 0.3% after this weekend's w/c)...or longer if needed. Sephie is looking way less white. I can see some fuzz, but no dots. I think a good weekend gravel vac and cleaning will help too.

WTG!!

And on owing me- your comment on another thread(re-ripped) totally made my day and was really sweet of you That's enough.

[uberleslie]

Update: Will do large water changes tomorrow and bring tanks back to 0.3% salt.

The new ones are doing just fine. No noticeable difference in activity. Sephie just has some white around the edges, and a bit of white here or there, but the overall white fuzz is gone. Kenobi still looks just fine.

Starbuck is pretty much the same. A smidge more active. She's more bottom-hovering now, than bottom-sitting in the corner. The redness in her tail is also reduced...now it just looks like the normal red line, no red angry. I did notice a bit of her poo yesterday...it was white and stringy and had little bubbles in it.

So, that's that...just keep going in this direction, I guess...

[uberleslie]

Mystery of Starbuck's bottom-sitting solved, yet again with the same answer: Eggs!

Did a big water change yesterday to de-salt both tanks. What awaits me when I turn on the tank light this morning? Eggs everywhere! So that's 3 times this year...is that normal?!

So yeah, looks like tonight they get yet another water change and tank scrubbing!

All in all everyone seems okay. There was one white spot on Sephie (new oranda) but I think it's wen growth. Last white spot was seen last weekend...so hopefully I got the ich. But I'm only hopeful, I know the stuff is tough to kill so I won't be surprised if it comes back. Especially since water is cooler recently (around 70-72) and the thought of heaters scares the crap outta me.

Oh, and Fisher lost a scale. That was sorta random and unexpected. He's his normal, obnoxious self though.

[uberleslie]

Crap. So it's been 10 days without any signs of ich and tonight I spot a spot on Sephie's fin.

Is it still ich? Do I re-salt to 0.3%?

Grr!

Why in the world does it just attach to her and not Kenobi? Are all orandas trouble?

[Trinket]

Don't look like ich to me.

I'm sure that ich has gone Leslie. Most unusual to come back 10 days later- wrong timing. Could that be a low pH/acid burn? Or a missing scale? Cant see well, my old eyes.

[uberleslie]

Hmm, it's not on her scale, it's on her fin...like in her armpit basically.

pH is at 8.0

[Trinket]

Does it look exactly like the ich spots you saw?

[uberleslie]

The ich spots I saw before seemed flat. This looks like it stands further out, but is fuzzy like the previous ones.

[Trinket]

I just cant believe its ich again. The ich parasites can damage the slimecoat though and make tiny tears and nicks that are easy for bacteria or fungus to attach to. Just to be safe I would salt again to 0.1% and watch that closely. If it was ich it would multiply to more than one spot within a few days. If after a few days at 0.1% salt there are no more spots -then maybe a topical spot of hp is all you need here.

If on the other hand more spots develop you will have the 0.1% headstart on the salt and can quickly get back up to 0.3%.

[uberleslie]

That sounds like a good plan. I'll get it salted to 0.1% and keep it there for a few days, and see what, if anything happens. If this dot is the only one I get and it doesn't go away, I'll do the HP swab.

Thanks for the tips...my inclination is always to thing worse-case scenario, so I think this course of action is more restrained and thoughtful!