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Gold Fish Breeding

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Guest stitch101

i know that if two dogs are different breeds and get puppies the puppies will be a cross of the two breeds, but do gold fish do that?

i heard in alot of topics that they found mixed breeds of goldfish but i didnt think that was possible! :blowup:

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yes it is possible

You can breed two common goldfish and get a single tailed telescope

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O was wondering something along these lines too....

If I breed my two ryukin together is it guaranteed that they will throw ryukin?

Or could I theoretically get any type of goldfish? eg, Could I get a pearlscale? Or an oranda?

In my mind it doesn't quite work out. But something inside of me is saying that it's possible. Kinda like even though my hair is brown and my child's fathers hair is brown, my child could have red hair if it's in the line somewhere, right?

EDIT for correct grammatical articles

Edited by ryukin girl

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The outcome of the offspring will be based on the gentics of the parents, so this means that two excellent show fish could breed and produce only a few good examples of the parent's physical traits. It will also depend on the dominant and recessive genes each parent has, since a dominant trait will only need to be present once to show up physically, while a resessive trait needs to have two of those recessives to show up physically. If there is just one recessive, it won't show, but will still be carried. I need a diagram to explain this better, but if you guys remembered genetics in school, you had to use that four-squared set up to help you learn the percent chance of probability of offspring receiving genes of the two parents.

What FishCrazy says is true, but it is very unlikely, but it is possible if those two common's both carried recessive genes for telescope traits.

But when breeding two different types of goldfish, like let's say a telescope and a ryukin, there will be a percentage of fry that will turn out looking either ryukin or telescope, and another percentage of fry that may exhibit both ryukin and telescope traits (I'm not sure since I don't know if these are dominat genes, I'm just supposing). Let it also be noted that sometimes to improve a line of goldfish, breeders may incorporate a second type of goldfish that may help enhance the traits they are looking for. Ryukin's could be breed into an oranda line to deepen their bodies--but it usually takes several generations of more selective breeding of the resulting offspring to give the breeder thier ideal stock.

However, when breeding two obvious, dead-pan orandas with a consistantly oranda-based bloodline, they will usually be true, and will not produce pearlscales or ryukins, though they may produce poor examples of oranda's which could be mistaken for a mixed fish.

If you want more specifics on the percentage of traits being carried and/or exhibited, I'm sure our resident breeders and collectors will elaborate for you if they see this topic. There is generally much confusion when it comes to genetics, and I'm skipping some of the vocabulary I should be using.... Otherwise research basic genetics to just learn theoretical probabilities of breeding.

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wat about a ryuki9n/oranda with another fish like a pearlscale is that possible?like a triple breed?

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That was what I was thinking, only it was fuzzy in my mind :blink: .

I wonder if anyone on here knows which traits are dominant and which are recessive?

That would be a really cool thing to know just for fun. It would also help for breeders!

Only I suppose it would take generations of fry and lots of observation.......and what would become of all the fry?

If only I were a genetics major, I'd do that for a doctoral degree!

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That was what I was thinking, only it was fuzzy in my mind :blink: .

I wonder if anyone on here knows which traits are dominant and which are recessive?

That would be a really cool thing to know just for fun. It would also help for breeders!

Only I suppose it would take generations of fry and lots of observation.......and what would become of all the fry?

If only I were a genetics major, I'd do that for a doctoral degree!

Serious breeders will be able to inform us--and any show breeders and such do have to know genetics. I just don't have the time to sift through various internet documents (some that are questionable in accuracy) so I'd wait for an experienced person like daryl or d_golemn. I have studied some gentics outside of school, but those were for betta color strains and fancy mice coat and color varieties, and maybe a few things on broadtail and calico genes in goldfish. Knowing genetics takes mathematics and science these days, since it is really an equation of strategic probability, but it does take quite a few years of observation to select good traits, learn how to improve and retain them based on both facts and chance.

Deformed fry, if thier crooked spines do not fix themselves, or are born with one eye, are either culled or die off naturally. Fry showing undesirable qualities may also be culled, or if healthy and the breeder prefers, maybe sold to petshops or homes as pets. The best ones are reserved to the breeder's choice of either keeping them for further breeding, selling, or sending to other breeders.

And yeah Franky, I'm sure someone could have a triple-crossbred that could have 25% oranda, 25% pearlscale and 50% ryukin- so that would mean one parent is pure and the other is a cross breed. :) I'm not sure if one goldfish could have three parents

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A "breed" of fish, such as an Oranda or Ranchu is identified by specific genetic traits. An Oranda has a particularly shaped body with a wen that consists of one of several formations. A "Ranchu" is a complicated breed - currently in flux and under "construction" depending on what country you are in and whether you believe that a TVR and a SVR are one and the same or really two different breeds.

I guess, in simple form, what I am trying to say is that what makes up a "breed" in goldfish are the collection of traits that are "required" in a single fish for it to fall into the category of a particular breed. You will find fish within a "breed" that have all representations of these traits - from missing some ("poor quality fish") to fish that have ALL the traits displayed in "ideal" conformation.

Even within "perfect showfish", when crossed, you will get a whole range of conformations in the resulting offspring. The more "established" and "set" the genetic traits are in a line of fish, the greater percentage of the offspring will be good representations of the breed. A "line" of fish is a very valuable thing to establish - but requires careful breeding for multiple generations.

When breeding fish, it is a common thing to use fish that demonstrate traits other than that which would be considered "good". For example, I have crossed Veiltails into my Broadtail Ryukins - resulting in fry that look like the Veils, fry that look like standard Ryukins and everything in between on a sliding scale. Because the line is not "set" yet (I am only on the 3rd generation) I also get a fair number of tripod tails and other aberrations. I even have gotten a fair number of Broadtail - but SINGLE tail.... Kinda cool - but not Ryukin and not Veiltail!

I guess what I am trying to say is that you can cross breed anything you wish. I have seen telescope eyed Orandas with a single tail. I have seen Ryukins with a wen. I have seen many other "oddities" resulting from crossbreeding. It is possible to have a fish that LOOKS to be a fair example of a specific breed, yet carry many recessive genetic traits that are NOT of that breed. When the fish is bred, the resulting offspring will not be good representatives of the breed.

If there are specific traits you are interested in knowing about - recessive/dominant, etc. I will be happy to help as I can. Remember that many are partials - modified by many factors. Goldfish genetics are extremely complicated because the majority of genetic traits are not strictly dominant/recessive pairs.

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"If there are specific traits you are interested in knowing about - recessive/dominant, etc. I will be happy to help as I can. Remember that many are partials - modified by many factors. Goldfish genetics are extremely complicated because the majority of genetic traits are not strictly dominant/recessive pairs."

Thank god! When I was typing my posts I kept on trying to figure out the recessive and dominant traits in my head-it bothered me really bad because there were too many missing "pieces" and variables that didn't make any sense. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm happy to hear anything on goldfish genetics :D

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Which is dominant:

Short or Long tail (I would think it was short)

Red and white or solid red (I would think red)

Deep body or long body (I think long)?

Thanks daryl!

If there are specific traits you are interested in knowing about - recessive/dominant, etc. I will be happy to help as I can. Remember that many are partials - modified by many factors. Goldfish genetics are extremely complicated because the majority of genetic traits are not strictly dominant/recessive pairs

In this way goldfish genetics is like human genetics. There is so much more to hair color/eye color/height/weight etc that people don't realize. It's not all like pea pod shape, or pea flower color!

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If there are specific traits you are interested in knowing about - recessive/dominant, etc. I will be happy to help as I can. Remember that many are partials - modified by many factors. Goldfish genetics are extremely complicated because the majority of genetic traits are not strictly dominant/recessive pairs.

I'm wondering if there is anyway to predict what the fry from the black Oranda and chocolate lavender Telescope I got from Tommy may end up looking like. Will they more likely look more like one parent or another, a combination of both or end up looking like Fantails,with neither the Telescope eyes or wen growth eventually. If they are going to develope the Telescope eyes at what age should it be noticible? I know wen growth can be a long time coming even in a purebred Oranda. Or is there just no way of knowing till they get much older. They are about 4 months old now.

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Predictions of outcomes of breeding can be made, but please keep in mind that the smaller the sample, the more range for error you will see. Given enough fry (That is a REALLY BIG factor - you must have enough fry to actually make numeric sense!), you will see percentages and proportions that can be "predicted" more accurately. All predictions are assuming that the parents are truly the genetic makeup that they are displaying - not having a tremendous un-expressed traits.

Finnage - the long and short of it - is relatively to answer, but the answer is not simple. The length of a goldfish's fins are NOT simple recessive/dominant traits. Instead, finnage length is more of a range. If you were to cross a long finned fish with a short finned fish, almost to a fish, all the resulting fry would be intermediate lengthed fins/tails. You will see some difference-- some being a bit shorter and some being a bit longer, but, by and large, they would all have "medium" tails.

Color between "red" and "red/white" is not particularly easy to predict. By and large, red is predominant if not "dominant" for genetics play a most direct role in scale/coloration. Since color travels and moves on a fish throughout life, it would be difficult to say which would be more dominant. If both parents were solid red, you would most likely NOT see any bi-colored fry. If one parent were bi-colored and one solid, you would see a collection of both. The amount of white or red on a fish is difficult if not impossible to predict in most lines - for not only does the color change dramatically throughout life, the color can be impacted by temp, pH and food sources.

Body type is ALSO another "continuous" expression in fish. If you were to cross a deep bodied fish with a long bodied fish, in the first generation you would get a whole range of fish - from deep bodies to long bodies and everything in between. The biggest difficulty in determining body type in goldfish is that it can be dramatically affected by environment - a GREAT deal can be done with environment alone - so much that it is tough to separate genetically determined expressions from environmentally determined expressions. Some genetic expressions of fish have a "strongly attached" body type. The Pearlscale is one such fish. The Pearlscale is about as far out on the "genetically modified" scale as any fish can be..... and yet their body type is rather strongly set.

The wen in an ORanda can, generally, be considered to be "dominant" in most senses of the word. Most fry from a cross between an wenned fish and an unwenned fish will produce fry that will display some thickening of the head growth - a type of wen. Will you get the full wen of a "show" Oranda? No, but you will see a rudimentary wen on the majority of fry.

The "telescoped" eye of the DragonEye fish is about as straight forward Mendelian genetics as goldfish can do. The telescope eye is "recessive" and the "normal" eye is dominant. There are, however, some problems introduced byt the goldfish's tetraploidy - and you may see "regular" eyes that are "larger" than "normal" - or telescope eyes that are smaller than "normal". It is also possible to see fish that will have one eye telescoped and one eye that is not - much.

Telescope eyes are visible and quantifiable at a very young age. If you are not seeing telescope eyes on your fry from a week or so of age on, you do not have any telescope eyes on your fish.

As far as color - black, lavander, chocolate are all derivitives of "black" in the goldfish. They are also very strange genetics - and can change even in a fish that is 5+ years old. I could go into LONG explanations of color - black/chocolate/lavandar. If you have a fish with STRONG "black genes" - ones that produce an excess of melanin, you will have a black fish. Most black fish on the market do not have this genetic trait - they are crosses that eventually "revert" to red, orange, white. LAvandar color is one that is, at this time, still not completely understood. IT is strongly connected to the telescope eye genes, is a factor of the "brown" factor, but appears to be a "partially expressed" modified black gene. Since most "blacks" are extremely unstable, it is highly unlikely you will get any lavanders or even blacks that stay black for too long.

That said, I have, out of over 1000 fry, one black and one blue Ranchu fry - hopefull crystal scaled..... I have no idea where those genetic traits came from - something recessive in the parents. You will, for the most part, never know what you are dealing with in parents, unless you have created the genetic line yourself and it is generations old.

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"Telescope eyes are visible and quantifiable at a very young age. If you are not seeing telescope eyes on your fry from a week or so of age on, you do not have any telescope eyes on your fish."

Thanks Daryl! That was really what I wondered about since these are my first babies.

Then none of the babies are going to have them. Most do have large eyes and some are slightly more protuberant than others. And they may well develope some headgrowth in time then. They are well built babies with pretty fins and have been very healthy from the get go. Can't ask for more than that from an oops spawning from different types who will be pets only I reckon. To me they are perfect, lol. :wub:

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Is there anything you can share about the genetics of the eggfish you are working with? In addition to this, are there any traits which are linked to a disease/condition that may lead to something along the lines of impaired immunity(in any goldfish)? This excludes body formations with are prone to SBD, blindness in telescopes which are more of a direct cause and effect. For example, in mice, there is a self color type called Lethal Yellow, located on the second chromosome, which carries a number of possible disorders such as low insulin levels, resulting as the mice being models for diabetes--this also causes weight gain, impaired fertility and a variety of other problems. However, it is not the coat itself that causes the problem, since there is a second yellow variety called Recessive Yellow which is located on a different chromosome and is healthy. It's a bit hard for me to describe what exactly I'm looking for.....

Thank you so much for those "articles" I enjoyed reading them :)

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ACtual research on goldfish genetics is very sparce. There are a few very informative books about the subject - the easiest one to read and understand is "Goldfish Breeding" by Joseph Smartt. He has presented what he knows (and it is a lot) in a fairly easy read. There are a few others in the world who are actively involved in goldfish genetic research, but the majority of goldfish breeders are in it for the "ideal" fish - not in collecting information on statistics of genetics. They are pretty much exclusive occupations. A geneticist will raise and count all fry in a spawning. A show person will cull heavily. The show person can rarely contribute too many specific statistics to a study - and the geneticist will rarely have a fish that is "show quality"!\

I am currently "seriously" working with 2 two lines of fish - but I am doing it from a "show person's" point of view. I have a line of Blue Phoenix - the "silver blue" of the ancient fish, not the "netted blue" of the more modern "blue fish". I have been working to stabilize the color and backs of the fish - the ones that I started with had less than desireable backs and very mismatched body type and finnage. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get them to breed this year - and the set that I had last year - spread around to many different people - seems to have died out for most. That line is, currently, not going anywhere. :( Of the 11 fish I have, none are breeding at the moment.

I have been working on creating my own Broadtail Ryukin line - one that breeds as true as possible to the deep bodied, high humped Ryukin with the finnage of a Veiltail, held in classic Ryukin style. There are many BT Ryukins presently on the market, but the majority of them demonstrate moderate finnage - though with the proper shape. I want the extreme finnage of the Veiltail. I am currently on the 3rd and 4th generation of these fish - and have a moderately successful line of them going. I had a matched pair of red/white Ryukin (standard tail, but fromthe BT line) that did VERY well at show this past fall. I cleaned up the Ryukin class there - taking all the awards for the breed. The generation of fish that I have growing, currently, has a few really nice fish in it, a bunch of fish that represent the Veiltail side of life and many that are simply nice "Ryukin" - even a few "shorttails". It is a fairly "set" line, but does not breed as true as I hope for in the future. I have completely lost the calico color, though, that I started with - calico being difficult to get with a good hump and body type - and I have been selecting for body type and finnage above color.

There are definately genetic abberations that create "lethal" combinations in the goldfish. I do not know of anyone who has specifically been able to id these or what locus they occupy. I see them in most undeveloped lines of fish - the more developed a line is, the fewer that seem to occur. The fry occur all along a continuous line of "lethal" up to "Perfect", though. This accounts for the "small" fish that never seem to grow well all the way to the ones that simply shoot up at astonishing rates.

At approximately 5 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 16-18 weeks of age, there appears to be a common "die-off" time. My conclusion is that these fry simply outgrow their body's ability to process food or nutrients or oxygen or .... whatever. As the body mass grows the fish is incapable of living - and dies - a type of "lethal" genetica combination. This is most commonly seen in fry that are "smaller" than average AND fry that are "larger" than average. The "pigs" of the fry tank will often seem to outgrow their ability to cope - and die - while the more moderate growers will steadily increase in bulk and size and outshoot the lot of runts and pigs. In an average spawning of 1000 fry, I would suggest that approximately 5% fall into this category.

I generally see about 1 in 100 that is worth growing out to 1 inch or greater. Of these, about 1 in 100 of those is worth growing out to adulthood - for sale in a store, trades to others or because they are simply kind of neat fish. I get fewer than 1 in 1000 that is a show fish. I have been getting more than that in my line of BT Ryukin, now, though. I have successfully bred and grown out and shown 4 in the past 2 years - and all have been awarded. That line is getting better and more reliable.

I have been working with Ranchu, too. I do like the SVR best, I think, but am trying to start a line of Mita.... with a modicum of success. I consider the two - TVR and SVR to be different breeds with separate specifics for breed conformity.

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That book will be one my list of things to read then, and I was seeing if you heard of or know anything specific, since the Japanese research is very secretive so far (like everything else :) ). I'm not a specifically scientifically driven person, I'm an artist, so I'd be eyeing and squaring off things visually too. You have a good point about the scientist/geneticist fish versus the show quality fish, but a good geneticist would probably try to obtain samples from a more ideal representation-or perhaps from many of the same breed in order to establish a more accurate average. (I'm counting on the Japanese for this, but they are subject to use their standards of goldfish, which makes all these variables more gapingly obvious if they did such exclusive research)

That's very unfortunate :( . I'm also curious about what prevents them from reproducing well? Are phoenix particularly specific about thier environtment/atmosphere for breeding? Or do they have impaired fertility (to a degree) or less surviving offspring?

I've read about you discussing your broadtail lines, and it's very responsible ideal to make a consistant line. I'll have to agree with your standards on ryukins, body type and finnage are what I find the most striking and important(I'm a finnage freak)... Good quality ryukins should have a "supermodel" persona. Perhaps you can work on calico's once you'v established the body type and finnage? Personally I've only seen two calico broadtail ryukins, and one of them is your Sterling. I was pleased to hear how well your fish did in show--I've read all the goldfish shows posted on here.

My concern with the lethal combinations was that natural selection that occured within the tanks was preventing the fish from living very long anyway, but I didn't really compare it to the fry die-off stage, since this occurs with every spawn. Thanks for reminded me of that possibility. The only thing close to the long living lethal combination I'm thinking of were perhaps the sickly Chinadolls... or fish I suspect could have inherited a predisposition for certain ailments.

With the different standards of ranchu's flying around between Eastern countries, the UK and Western, what do you perfer more? I'm tending to favor side view ranchu's with large heads to balance the proportions of thier body, and consider SVR and TVR different (different perspectives make for different standards).

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ACtual research on goldfish genetics is very sparce. There are a few very informative books about the subject - the easiest one to read and understand is "Goldfish Breeding" by Joseph Smartt. He has presented what he knows (and it is a lot) in a fairly easy read. There are a few others in the world who are actively involved in goldfish genetic research, but the majority of goldfish breeders are in it for the "ideal" fish - not in collecting information on statistics of genetics. They are pretty much exclusive occupations. A geneticist will raise and count all fry in a spawning. A show person will cull heavily. The show person can rarely contribute too many specific statistics to a study - and the geneticist will rarely have a fish that is "show quality"!\

I am currently "seriously" working with 2 two lines of fish - but I am doing it from a "show person's" point of view. I have a line of Blue Phoenix - the "silver blue" of the ancient fish, not the "netted blue" of the more modern "blue fish". I have been working to stabilize the color and backs of the fish - the ones that I started with had less than desireable backs and very mismatched body type and finnage. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get them to breed this year - and the set that I had last year - spread around to many different people - seems to have died out for most. That line is, currently, not going anywhere. :( Of the 11 fish I have, none are breeding at the moment.

I have been working on creating my own Broadtail Ryukin line - one that breeds as true as possible to the deep bodied, high humped Ryukin with the finnage of a Veiltail, held in classic Ryukin style. There are many BT Ryukins presently on the market, but the majority of them demonstrate moderate finnage - though with the proper shape. I want the extreme finnage of the Veiltail. I am currently on the 3rd and 4th generation of these fish - and have a moderately successful line of them going. I had a matched pair of red/white Ryukin (standard tail, but fromthe BT line) that did VERY well at show this past fall. I cleaned up the Ryukin class there - taking all the awards for the breed. The generation of fish that I have growing, currently, has a few really nice fish in it, a bunch of fish that represent the Veiltail side of life and many that are simply nice "Ryukin" - even a few "shorttails". It is a fairly "set" line, but does not breed as true as I hope for in the future. I have completely lost the calico color, though, that I started with - calico being difficult to get with a good hump and body type - and I have been selecting for body type and finnage above color.

There are definately genetic abberations that create "lethal" combinations in the goldfish. I do not know of anyone who has specifically been able to id these or what locus they occupy. I see them in most undeveloped lines of fish - the more developed a line is, the fewer that seem to occur. The fry occur all along a continuous line of "lethal" up to "Perfect", though. This accounts for the "small" fish that never seem to grow well all the way to the ones that simply shoot up at astonishing rates.

At approximately 5 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 16-18 weeks of age, there appears to be a common "die-off" time. My conclusion is that these fry simply outgrow their body's ability to process food or nutrients or oxygen or .... whatever. As the body mass grows the fish is incapable of living - and dies - a type of "lethal" genetica combination. This is most commonly seen in fry that are "smaller" than average AND fry that are "larger" than average. The "pigs" of the fry tank will often seem to outgrow their ability to cope - and die - while the more moderate growers will steadily increase in bulk and size and outshoot the lot of runts and pigs. In an average spawning of 1000 fry, I would suggest that approximately 5% fall into this category.

I generally see about 1 in 100 that is worth growing out to 1 inch or greater. Of these, about 1 in 100 of those is worth growing out to adulthood - for sale in a store, trades to others or because they are simply kind of neat fish. I get fewer than 1 in 1000 that is a show fish. I have been getting more than that in my line of BT Ryukin, now, though. I have successfully bred and grown out and shown 4 in the past 2 years - and all have been awarded. That line is getting better and more reliable.

I have been working with Ranchu, too. I do like the SVR best, I think, but am trying to start a line of Mita.... with a modicum of success. I consider the two - TVR and SVR to be different breeds with separate specifics for breed conformity.

Wow.....just......wow! Do you breed goldies for a living? Or is it just something you are passionate about? I would love to be able to be a full time breeder but that wouldn't be for a very long time. I'm not sure how lucrative breeding as a business is....unless you start your own LFS but that runs into problems like start up capital yadda yadda yadda. And I would like to be able to support a family within the next three years or so, so for now it's a dream.

I highly respect any and all breeders who are as passionate about it as you Daryl! Maybe in five or ten years or so when I can really devote my time to breeding I will ask you to be my mentor!

Also, if you are looking for a home for any of your "non show quality" ryukins from your BT line.....think of Ryukin Girl please!!

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thankz so ther can be a triple breed!?wow didnt kno that waz possible.

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A "breed", for all intents and purposes, is determined by the characterisitics displayed in the fish. When a fish has the majority of one set of characteristics, it is usually labeled as belonging to a particular "breed". Each "breed" has a set of specialties - ie: the Oranda is a fish with a dorsal and a wen, a Ranchu/Lionhead is a fish without a dorsal but with a wen, a BubbleEye is a fish with bubble eyes, a Telescope/Moor is a fish with telescoped eyes and a Celestial is a dorsalless fish with telescoped eyes that are turned up.....

Many fish, even when carefull bred, will have a whole range of different characteristics. The ones that come close to the standards dictated for a particular breed are considered "good breed examples". The ones that differ a fair amount or are missing some specific characteristics or have ones that are not included in the standards for that particular beed are "not good examples".

When you "cross breed" various breeds of fish, you can and do get fish that demonstrate characterisitics that are not normally accepted as ones that should be on one fish. For example, you would not want bubble eyes on a fish with a wen and a dorsal fin.... you would not want telescoped eyes on a fish with a wen and no dorsal. These fish would NOT fit into a category of any specific "breed" - they would be a "mix". You can put a dorsal on a BubbleEye and call it a "Flag fish" , but it is still a BubbleEye with a serious flaw. You can cross a Ryukin with a Ranchu and get a Ryukin bodied fish with no hump and a huge wen - but fancy names aside, it is still not a Ryukin or a Ranchu. It may be a pretty fish - and a really NEAT fish, but it cannot be labeled as a specific breed.

Yes, it is possible to see many, varied characteristics within one fish .... many times they are ones that are not recognised as ones that should be accepted together. Imagine a pearlscaled, dorsalless, wenned fish with bubble eyes and a long tail. That could hold the characteristics of 5 or more different "breeds" of fish. It would not be labeled as any specific "cross"..... instead would simply be labeled as a cross breed.

In goldfish breeding, many fish have been "cross bred" - to introduce different characteristics or to exagerate or minimize different expressions. Genetically, the fish are not "pure bred", yet what you see is considered to be "purebred". That is the nature of most of goldfish breeding at this time. What you see is what you label a fish. Most do not know the line of the fish . I have crosssed Veiltails into my Ryukin line to take the finnage to the extreme. I am selecting for Ryukin, though. Yup - the fish are technically crossbreeds, but in a show tank they are judged with the Ryukin standards. IF they fit that category, they are Ryukin - no matter where their specific characteristics came from.....

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That's really interesting! So even though a fish is genetically a cross-breed if the dominant traits in that particular fish fit within a breed it is considered that breed. COOL! So basically what you are saying is that if I bred a ryukin with a ranchu and got a deep bodied fish with a wen and no dorsal it would be considered a ranchu? Wow, it almost seems like cheating the judges but it's what you have to do, huh?

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That is quite over-simplified, but.... yes. Most fish are a combination of one thing or another that brings them to the expression of the breed traits. There are very few breeders that sell to the general public that have specific, quantifiable genetic lines of fish..... Japanese Ranchu aside.

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superb post.learnt a loooooooooot...thanks guys

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