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Sudden Random Popeye!


luv4pets36

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I feel bad that the only time I post on here is for bad news but I really need some expert advice on this one!

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 20

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? drops, API

[*]Water temperature? Don't know, around 78?

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 20 gallons, running for about a year and a half

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? don't remember brand, its a power filter 400 gph

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? I change about 50% once or twice a week

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? three - lionhead, pearlscale, and black moor (i know overstocked but they are still young and I am planning an upgrade)

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? amquel plus

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? progold, hikari sinking pellets and peas. I feed them twice a day

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? Yes, about 3 weeks ago I added the moor after about a month of quarantine. He seems quite healthy, he was given to me by my teacher who has had him for about a year and he has been healthy the whole time she has had him too

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? My pearlscale has popeye this morning, I can't tell if she is dropsied at all tho because she is already quite round!

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No unusual behavior, just the popeye

I have never had a fish recover from popeye and I need to know if it is too late to do anything. What should I do for her right now?

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Hi!!!! Sorry about your pearlie... :cry1

No it's not too late.. not at all! I know what you mean, it's hard to tell the dropsy in a pearlscale...

First of all, can you QT the sick fish? Maybe in the QT tank you used for the new fish? Also, that tank, is it cycled?

Your first steps here are going to be easy ones and inexpensive.

First, just extra water changes... IF your fish has or begins to dropsy, clean perfect water is the number one thing you can do for them.

Second..EPSOM Salt.. (You can get this very cheap.. Add 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water.. Very small, but this will bring down any bloating... When my fish had pop eye, the epsom helped fast...) Not reg aquarium salt. Do NOT use the two salts together!

The temp should stay where it is right now. Around 78 or 80. So if you move this fish to a QT, it should remain there.

Now, medications.. First one is on the expensive side, but it is a dream for fish with pop eye/dropsy. It's called MetroMeds and you can order it at Goldfish COnnection.com.. They can overnight it if you wish... (Runs about $20 extra, but if you want it fast, it will get there the next day..) This is a medicated food, and should be fed only to the sick fish.

ALso you can get Maracyn TWO.. YOu can find this at almost any pet store... Again, this med should be added just to the sick fish tank.. (Pop eye/dropsy are not like other diseases in that often they do not spread. So only medicate the sick fish if possible)... Like all meds, this needs to be used in perfect water. So if the tank is NOT cycled, it's best to keep that ammonia and nitrite as close to zero as possible through water changes, and then you can add something like Prime to make sure anything IN the water, is safe... Maracyn TWO (or Maracyn II) is light sensitive.. Deactivated with strong light, so you will want to cover the tank with a towel or something to keep it dark...

Let us know if you have other questions! It is DEFINATELY not too late for your fish, so don't give up hope!!! :)

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Thank you so much for your response! I really love this fish, carried her all the way from China town in SF. Yes my tank is cycled and stable I assume it just had a little issue because of the extra bioload from the new fish. Of course as soon as I noticed the popeye I did a water change and I will probably do one every day or every other day. I don't have a QT set up anymore so I am just gonna have to treat them all in the same tank. I already added the epsom salt, I knew I should use it I just wasn't sure what the dosage was :)

I'm not sure if I can afford metromeds right now, I'm 17 and flat broke :( do you think she has a chance with just the Maracyn II? If she absolutely needs the metromeds to survive then I may be able to swing it but would it be possible for her to get by without it?

Again thanks for all your help! :)

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Ok....First..Epsom salts should be used for a fish only when they have popeye or dropsy...cos it takes out all the extra fluids from the fish's body...Now the epsom is ok for the one that has dropsy..but definitely not for the others...It can harm the other two....You will definitely need a QT...Now you can do the following:

Do a 100% water change to get the epsom salts out...Set up a QT..I am sorry I understand you are broke...but QT tank can really be a rubbermaid tub that you get very cheap for 6$ at wal**mart...there is also a 10gallon tank at the same place for 10.87...so that much investment with a filter say 100gph is absolutely necessary...Popeye and dropsy is something that needs to be treated only for the sick fish...

Once all this is setup...as CountryLovah has mentioned in her post 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons...nothing more than that...cos excess will harm...Along with the epsom Maracyn II can help..but I treated my fish with epsom only...and of course medicated food...like CountryLovah mentions...

I hope I have answered your questions...please dont use epsom on the other healthy fish...

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Crud that post came too late, the whole tank has already been treated with epsom salt and Maracyn II for a day now...how crucial is it that I get the one fish separated out? I'm afraid that by this point its too late and the stress of the move will be too much, and I'm afraid that I won't b able to treat her as well in an uncycled QT.

GAH what should I do?

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You repeated the question at 11.12 am..and I believe by then you had not treated the whole tank...I have answered you within 15 minutes of your last post...I do not know what to say more about the post being late...

All I can say is that healthy fish should never be treated with epsom...neither meds...I have told you in my previous post what needs to be done...its not too late or anything...all you need to do is separate the fish and give him some rest alone and treat him properly...I would definitely do what I explained at the earliest...I did that when one of my fish had popeye...Also, what do you do for the medicated food??..please do not feed med food to healthy fish...their system tends to get immuned to it and then the meds dont work effectively in times of need...I think it is extremely important to separate the guys...and treat the sick guy only...rest it's upto you...

Edited by SunshineGurl
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Like I said I already had the tank treated about a day ago, notice the post where I said I was treating with epsom salt was last night at about 10 pm... no worries tho I'm not trying to blame u for the post being late or anything :) I was just pointing out my own stupidity at having already treated the whole tank.

I have a 10 gallon but I will have to get a filter or an air stone tomorrow to set it up, (would go tonight but I live 40 mins out of town). In the mean time, how damaging are the epsom salts to the healthy fish? How much damage will the salts have already done and how much more damage will be done leaving them in the treated tank overnight?

In terms of medicated food, what brand should I get? I don't have the money to order metromeds, trust me if I physically had the money my fish would b top priority but there is no way I can afford it... what other options do I have?

-Again, thanks for all ur help :) sorry I'm asking so many questions!

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Hi! Sorry to take so long to check back in.. This week has been crazy busy :)

I agree with SunshineGurl, the QT is the best way to go.. It's always best to seperate a sick fish, so that you can treat them without harming your cycle, and so you are not giving unneccessary meds to fish that don't need them.. You said you had the moor in QT a few weeks ago... can you use whatever you used with him? Even uncycled it would be okay, because you want to be doing daily water changes ANYWAY just to keep the water in good condition for the sick fish.. I really think QT is the way to go... I don't think that the epsom the one day was the worst thing ever... (One of my fish had popeye and it was hard to tell with the other so I did epsom for both) but I really think it would be best to avoid using it on fish that are not having problems. The Maracyn II on a non sick fish worries me more, because it was really not neccessary.. Any meds can be harsh so giving them when not needed is not a good idea in my opinion, if you can avoid it.

As for the medicated foods.. Yes there are others, but the one that works BEST in this case and has had the most success in the MetroMeds. There was a medicated food Kathy B used for her fish with dropsy. I am not saying that they won't work, but you have to be careful because other medicated foods can contain ingredients whichcan hurt the kidneys, which are already affected with dropsy.

At this point, are you still seeing popeye only, or are you seeing definate dropsy?? Has the espom/maracyn II seemed to help at all??

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No worries, I know how it is... 2 jobs and full time student :)

Ya it seems that the popeye has gone down, its almost not noticeable. Like I said, since she is a pearlscale it is impossible for me to tell if she is dropsied at all at this point but she certainly hasn't gotten any worse. They are acting normal, and eating just fine, so I don't think the meds and epsom salts have done too much damage but I will set the QT up again tomorrow when I can get ahold of another filter.

Unfortunately, there is just no way I can get ahold of the metromeds as much as I would like to :(

Is there another brand that I can buy in the store that would be effective? Is it a lost cause without the use of medicated food?

- Thanks :)

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Are you in San Francisco??..I work there..I can get you the MetroMeds... :) ..lemme know..I have an almost new pack...which is refrigerated...so its good...I used it last month for my dropsied fish...lemme know even if you can meet me somewhere in SF...if not in SF where are you located??..I would be glad to pass it on to you...and its free... ;)

Edited by SunshineGurl
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Oooh..thats very far... :( ...I live in the south bay...south from SF...takes me around 2 hours to reach SF... :( ...oh Marysville is close to yuba city???...I am from Chico state...ok totally off topic.. :P ..coming back...any way you can make it there???

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If you can get the MM's from sunshine, or anyone that would be the best thing! If not, you could try Jungle Anti Bacteria food, BUT, the thing is.. Once you start a course of meds/med food like that you have to finish.. So you can't start on Jungle then switch to MetroMeds if you get them, or if the fish gets worse. So I would ONLY start the Jungle IF you know for a fact you are not going to be able to get the MM's..

Ya know.. If you guys are that close, but still too fat to drive, maybe you could just mail them? I sent some in a regular envelope to someone. I just put some in a ziplocak baggie and mailed em, cost the price of a stamp.. It would be cheaper than ordering them, AND prob still get there faster??

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Overnighting them is really expensive.... usually over $15 just for a letter.. So that's almost the same price as buying the meds in the first place..If your fish is improving with the Maracyn II and Epsom, you may be okay with just those.... If you can get away with ONE med, thats good, and since you saw improvement you may just have found the right med, and this may be all you need.... Maybe Sunshine could send you some regular mail just in case, and then if things get worse you have em on hand.. Also, just like with the other things, you don't want to feed this medicated food to all fish, so you need to have that QT set up before anything else...

Ya know.. If you guys are that close, but still too fat to drive, maybe you could just mail them?
Did you guys catch this??? if you are too FAT to drive?! Man you would have to be PRETTY big LMAO
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Regular mail would take atleast 5-6 days to reach you....I am really sorry I won't be able to overnight it...I am losing my job and 31st is my last day of work...if you understand my monetary status is a bit tight...the same reason I cannot drive or anything..I am soo sorry...I can hand them to you if you manage to get to SF...or a regular mail is also ok...trust me I dont have much in savings...rent and all will be covered by my bf...so I am kinda in a bad situation right now...dont know how long before getting a job...I would have really gone out of my way if these things weren't troubling me... :(

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I'm sorry about ur job :( pretty much everyone is having money issues these days so trust me I totally understand, I'm holding down two jobs and I'm still barely making it :(

If u can send it by regular mail that would be great tho so I can have the meds just in case. If she hasn't gotten better in the next week then I can use them. U can pm me so we can work out the details if u would be willing to mail me the meds :)

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Sorry.. :) ..had two water changes to do...was busy with those.. :D ...

PM is very simple...in these posts you can click my name just above my avatar...and that expands a drop down menu...which has a Send Message option..

Alternatively, you can visit my profile page and click on the Send Message link just below my profile pic.. :) ...

For now, I am sending you a message..you can reply back on that... :)

Edit: Oops..I just realized..you don't have 200 posts yet...so PMing is not yet available to you...hmm...would you like to just post your address here??.. :) ..or you could also mail it to me at get2jc@yahoo.com.. :) ..watever suits u...

Edited by SunshineGurl
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Know what guys.... I was just thinking about this...(when I should be sleeping lol)

There is a gel medicated food that Kathy used for her fish... It contains tetracycline and I believe it's only about $5... I've seen it in many stores, but usually not at the chain stores.. Before you guys send out the MM's (or maybe send them, but don't use them just yet) I would like to PM Trinket & Pixie about this one...

I just spent the last 30-40 minutes reading more old mod posts (yes a thrilling life I have) and I am just wondering here if the med food should be started, since the symptoms are improving.. (kinda like I said earlier).. Or, if med food is needed, would something like the Gel-Tek work.. The fish seems to be improving correct? Is there bottom sitting, clamping, any negative behavior? Or is the fish behaving normal?

So I'll PM the girls and see what they think, just to make sure there is no unneccessary medicating..

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Hello - just dropping in for a second as I don't have any time right now.

Firstly - yes, the girls are right NEVER treat well fish with meds. Popeye requires a QT and isolation for the sick fish - if you have a spare tank you can run it with an empty filter (or even an airstone) and a bag of zeolite for ammonia control. Don't worry about needing it to be cycled.

Now onto the pop-eye.

This is a complicated condition, mainly because it is a symptom of an underlying problem. It is very often a prelude to dropsy so you really need to hit the infection hard to prevent it progressing. The bacteria that could cause popeye may be Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, or Edwardsiella, all of which are gram-negative rod bacteria. For this reason treating with medfood which targets the fish from inside is the most effective way to go. Maracyn 2 can be a good first step and is better than nothing, BUT, as it doesn't easily penetrate the sparse vascular structure of the eye, it is often not enough. Metromeds have been the most successful intreating pop-eye and dropsy, so if you can get them from SG I would go for it as quickly as possible. - very kind of her to offer.

Meanwhile pay close attention to water quality and diet -Vit C-rich foods will help to boost the fishes natural immunity.

Part of the challenge in treating is also to try to find the underlyying cause, which can be poor water quality, bacterial problems and also parasites.

Two thoughts:

I would suggest that a 50% w/c every fortnight allows for too many harmful bacteria to escalate in the tank, so try to improve the water changing schedule from now on.

If you have not treated for flukes at any point, do it soon with Prazi as a preventive - dropsy can often follow the weakening and opening up to infection by fluke infestaion.

The TetraC Gel-tek as CL suggests could be an alternative, but MM's are really the best way to go. Hopefully Mar2, vit c and good water will hold things until they arrive.

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