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newbiefishgirl

Bloody Red Streaks And Big Red Abcess On Wen

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That's good : ) I am really happy to hear that Artemis seems to be doing well! I hope the wen clears up fast!

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Gotcha...

Swimming to the top sounds promising!!! Have you continued to see an improvement now that she is getting a variety of foods? Those medicated pellets have been known to constipate a bit (as great a they are) How is Einstein? I know you said he was getting better now that Artemis is in there... Is he still doing better..?

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I don't think they are going to get better. Yes a bit more swimming, but nothing else.

I set up the other tank, the 60 gall. How high can the ph be?

I would like to put Artemis and Callie in there. But I am afraid I can't reach the other fish if I put them in there....It is tooooooo deep! Any suggestions?

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Aww I am soo sorry that they seem to have flipped for good.. It's very sad...There was a fish today at the store doing the same thing and it made me think of your guys..

The PH. Well stable is best.. The PH can go up well into the 8's without being a problem for goldies, BUT since you are actually TRYING to get it up, I would aim for somewhere around 7.4, which is the technical correct PH for goldfish. You could go to 7.6 if you wanted, to give yourself some extra room in case of a crash, that way it could go down a bit and still be above 7... I forget did you ever get a KH/GH test? That number is one you want to make sure is good, because it does nothing to increase the PH if it won't stay that way..

Do you have any type of stool you could use if you were to put the other fish in that tank? Is keeping the two Einstein & Esteban in the 20 gallon an option?

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Hello - I thought I would catch up on this monster thread and it's taken me a couple of days to get through it!!!!!

Anyways, with a topic this long it may be helpful to do a re-cap on things so far.

You've obviously had some very unstable water conditions which always makes diagnosis harder, as many symptoms of illness are also created/disguised by water quality issues. Also, remember that an unstable PH is a great strain even on a healthy fish, but a sick fish really doesn't have the resources to weather it.

Just as fish hate PH drops, so do BB's: This means that when the PH drops steeply you will have BB die-off and an ensuing ammonia spike.

BTW, Is it possible your recent ammonia issues were aggravated by using salt in conjunction with Zeolite?

It seems clear that your water has very little KH (alkalinity) can you test it? With low alkalinity, the cycle (which is acidifying) will cause the PH to drop quickly - the more the ammonia output, the faster it will fall. Fixing this, I would say, is your number 1 order of business. Once the water is buffed, the PH will stabilize and so will the bio-filter colony. Once the water is stable you can rule it out as a contributing issue.

To avoid helpers having to read this entire thread from scratch, can you update us on the following:

1) Each tank and who is in them.

2) Are they both cycled now, or not? - give us today's readings.

3) Which meds have you run so far and for how long? Tell us precisely, rather than 'treated for everything'!

4) A brief re-counting of the basic events - ie moving, PH crash, filters breaking down etc PLUS,

5) The fishes symptoms from the onset of problems, to now. Include improvements and deteriorations.

Hopefully we might be able to pick a way through all these difficulties :)

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I have to go to work but will post all this when I get home tonight or if I have a little time at work.

I did get the kh tester....160...6 drops to change color...isn't it supposed to be like 220 or something...I am so tired I can't keep anything straight anymore...it has been a rough week. I had a funeral on Tuesday so not been posting so much.

Artemis & Callie seem to like new 60 gall (no bullies).

The gang (Mario, Ellie & Lucy) are getting along swimmingly in the 55 gall.

Esteban & Einstein bump along the bottom of the 20 gall though they do try to swim...just don't really get anywhere. Few red streaks in Einsteins tail fin and still clamping...yes doing water changes.

See I get on here and start typing and can't stop...this is a cult! (lol) I have to go to work will write more later with water test levels and so forth! Thanks guys!

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When I got the fish we treated with salt, dimlin, prazi. No more anchor worm, no more flukes, no ich etc....I believe that was March.

Medigold for 30 days. Just ended 10/3/08. (white poo)

Marycyn 2 for recommended dosing period. bloody wen infection thing gone, bloody streaks subsiding.

Run down on fish.

Tank #1 60 gall. Moved canister filter on 55 gall tank that had been running since March. Levels to follow tonight.

Artemis, oranda who got half of her wen eaten off by (the gang).

Callie, telescope.

Tank #2 55 gall (still have emperor with bio wheels and plates on this tank)

The gang...Lucy ryukin (sp?), Mario & Ellie shubies.

Tank #3 20 gall hospital tank, uncycled daily water changes with neolite to control ammonia.

Einstein, oranda swimming upside down (sometimes) mostly lays on her side at the bottom of the tank.

Esteban, black moor turned mostly orange now. Laying on side at bottom of the tank.

These guys plus Artemis treated with Marycyn 2.

Ok levels will have to wait.

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OK - this is really clear, thanks.

We'll just wait for the readings and I'll put on my thinking cap................... :read

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Man I am wiped!

Ok 55gall tank

7.2 ph, .25 amm (0 on amm monitor with prime), 0 no2, 60 NO3

75% water change, check levels in morning

60 gall tank (obviously not cycled)

8.4 ph (no clue), 1 amm, .25 no2, 20 no3

50% water change added prime

will change again in the morning to even out that amm, too tired to stand up and drain water anymore

I need to change filter (clean) on 55 gall but am afraid of cycle crash, i have a brand new filter on it since I changed the cycled canister to the 60 gal last week, would it be ok to change or wait a couple still?

60 gall, what is up with ph?

crushed calcium, was crashing, added buff it up, but now it seems too darn high.

Will recheck ph, amm in morning

20 gall changed per usual i don't even check the levels anymore since i am changing daily

No change in these ones :yawn

too much water changed tonight, on the weekends i am used to it, just not after a 13 hour work/drive shift

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Hey Steph!!! Glad to see Pix is in here to help! Things have been so nuts and I just feel like maybe there is something I missed so I asked if she would come in and help us think if there was ANYTHING we are missing : )

Thanks so much Pixie : )

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Oh man! Poor you with so much water to change.

The 60g with PH 8.4 is dangerous with any ammonia (it becomes more toxic the higher the PH) so you should throw in Prime, or anything you have, until being able to change water.

"I did get the kh tester....160...6 drops to change color"

Was this the tank or the tap? Are you sure it was KH rather than GH? Something isn't quite right with all the swings and crashes.

6 drops (dkh) is approx 107 ppm, so something needs clarifying here. Around 100ppm is usually enough to keep a steady PH, so I think we should really be certain of your source water. It is the make up of the tap water which will determine what needs doing. - Just trying to be very thorough here.

How much coral do you have and where did you put it?

Next job - Can you test your tap for PH and KH?

I'm wondering about the 55g which has .25 amm - When you say you added a new filter, was that in addition to an existing cycled one? How long has the new filter been there? I would not touch it for a month (other than to swish off any detritus in old tank water if it seems gunked up).

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geez i don't know how to use this quote thing....i am starting over again and i woke up late and don't have too much time

kh is out of tap. ph is about 8 if i remember correctly (i will test again)

it had been crashing to 6 and scarying the crap out of me

coral is in one shelf/holder/thingy in one canister on each tank

Yes...i put new canister on 55 gall tank with existing cycled filter.

60 gall fish seem fine if that means anything...they may be swimming in deadly water but not phasing them, i guess they have been through worse during this crazy move.

the other place never had ph crashes and the ph sat at 7.5 out of the tap and remained all the time.

to the .25 amm in 55 gall....when i look at the test tube part of it looks bright yellow(0) and part .25 it is banded?????

sorry to be all over the place but i have to go check levels, water and get to work all in 45 minutes...good luck i guess

hey thanks, this has been making me nuts! Sue you are soooo smart, thanks again Pix! :wacko:

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Ok I managed to test the ph in tap 8.0, ph in 60 gall this morning 7.4.

My ph is so screwed up...what in the world??

Obviously I will check it when i get home. Hopefully it doesn't drop to low, but when i used the buff it up it went too high. This is exhausting. The BF is ready to throw my fish in the pond next to the house ( I would kill him but he, like me doesn't understand why the water is so messed up)!

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OK - 8.0 dropping to 7.4. So now test the tap KH again, just to be 100% sure. Remember to shake the tube between each new drop - do not allow your finger to come into contact with the solution whilst shaking.

Is it the API, btw? Do you have GH as well - not matter if not, it just adds to the picture.

It may be helpful to test the tap KH/PH every morning for 5 days, just to see if there is any fluctuation from your main source. Sometimes water co's make seasonal supply changes and the PH can swing during these adjustments.

Last thoughts:

is there any type of bogwood/driftwood in any of the tanks?

Do you use the old AmQuel, by any chance? (- as opposed to Amquel Plus)

20 gal - how long has the zeolite been in there? Once the zeolite is full, it will dump ammonia straight back into the tank. You probably know it needs to be re-charged in salt? - every few days. I think you need to test this water (even though you change it daily) in order to be sure of when the zeolite is exhausted. Do you have extra aeration in there? Fish lying on their sides at the bottom can easily become oxygen deprived.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this. I just feel bad that you have so much maintenance to do on top of work and everything else. It gets very exhausting, I know.

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ph is holding at 7.4....YAY! I think.

I have nothing but an in-tank filter and air stone in 20 gall....well I put a plant in there so they didn't feel so sad (it is not real). zeolite & salt????

all I ever have known is NOT t o use it with salt as it will release the amm back into the water. I also put crushed coral in a filter bag and have it in the tank since the ph was dropping so much. I vacuum it and the bottom of the tank with water changes.

I will check on the ph again.

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kh is same as last time....6 drops i can't find the instructions to tell me the level.

55 gall ph 8 (coral working finally???) amm 0, no2 0, no3 10

Ph in 60 gall 8, amm 1, no2 0, no3 40

80% water change

ph in 20 gall 8, amm 0

fish still on their side, Einstein's wen seems more "jello-y" the past couple days...kinda like when she first got infection. Think the marycyn 2 didn't get rid of it all? red streaks in tail still but on side laying on.

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There is something I cannot quite unravel with these results.

Your KH score is about 107ppm (each drop is equal to 17.86ppm) The ideal level would be around 125ppm, or so, but your reading should be enough for the PH not to slide. I am struggling to think if there is anything which could be undermining or using up the alkalinity :idont

One other thing to try; pour out a jug of tap water tomorrow - test some immediately for PH/KH. Leave the rest to stand and then test PH/KH again 12/24 hours later. Report back with any changes. Sorry to give you extra work but this is a process of elimination!

Be very careful of the 60g; amm of 1ppm with PH 8 is very damaging. Was this before or after the 80% w/c?

"zeolite & salt???? all I ever have known is NOT t o use it with salt as it will release the amm back into the water."

Exactly! I was double-checking that you hadn't been running both in the tank. Also wanting to be sure you knew that when using zeolite, you do need to purge it of ammonia in a saline solution every few days. Otherwise, once it's full, it will dump its load back into the tank. I usually do this every 2/3 days when running a QT -testing amm daily is the way to judge how often is needed.

As far as the sick grounded fish are concerned, I'm going to paste a section of a piece written by Daryl on SBD

Anything that affects the space inside the fish is going to affect the air sacs ability to balance the fish and the vascular gas exchange support network neccessary to maintain balance.

So fish that are showing signs of "sbd" can be suffering from a huge multitude of different problems. Any of these could be responsible for damaging the efficiency of the 2 air sacs to constantly expell and take in air/gases to maintain that continous balance of correct airflow that gives a fish its amazing ability to remain upright and float and swim.

Some of the things that most commonly affect airsac control are these:

Bad water: any of the common toxins like ammonia/nitrites/pH problems and high bacterial load

Over feeding: which can inflate the intestinal tract squishing and crowding out the airsacs above.

Eggs: a fish that is full of eggs -the eggs can put pressure on the sacs causing malfunction.

Infection: viral,bacterial and parasitic- causing inflammation of organs or build up of visceral fluids inside the fish.

Constipation and gas: A diet of solely processed commercial food can pack up the gut with air and cause bloat which squeezes the airbladder. Wheat and soy in processed foods require for digestion, the production of an enzyme that also produces some gases that create bubbles in poop and indicate gas build up. These fish should be either fasted or overfed for a few days or permanently if severe- on non processed foods to eliminate the gas.

Airbladder malfunction: sometimes the tube connecting the airsacs, the physostome, gets blocked, temporarily or permanently. In a worst case scenario water can enter and fill the swimbladder causing total malfunction. The fish will flipover. This is true "swimbladder disease".

High nitrates: these can affect the vasodilation capacity of blood capillaries- this one reminds me of how a fatty diet can affect the ability for people's blood vessels to transport blood to the human heart...arteries and vessels clog.

Gulping air: lack of oxygen, nitrite poisoning, plunging pH and parasites will have the fish piping for air. Gulping air deregulates vascular air flow and causes balance problems as th GI tract swells with air. Fish should not be at the surface.

Overuse of antibiotics: after use of antibiotics fish will have less available bacteria inside to help regulate vascular activities that support a healthy balance. The more antibiotics and medications we have used on a fish, the more likely it becomes they will weaken the fishes inner system. Longterm use of antibiotics can also damage the kidney causing bloat as the fish becomes unable to expell waste efficiently.

So, the question of siwmbladder is not an easy one and definitely requires closely observing and eliminating each possibility.

Several of the above mentioned factors are present for your fish - so sorting out the water is very important in being able to move forward and eliminate other possibilities.

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hmmmmm...gee?

Now i have an upside down non swimming firh in the 60 gall...callie

great, perhaps since i am a bad fish keeper i should sell it all

i have a bunch of 4.5 + fish plus a 60, 50, and 20 gall for sale

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"Now i have an upside down non swimming firh in the 60 gall...callie"

Well, with Ph 8 and amm 1ppm this is to be expected. Ammonia is dangerous, the higher the Ph - it burns the gills. The longer fish are exposed to toxicity the more unwell they become. Toxic water creates enormous stress and fish cannot do well or recover from infections in these conditions. It is hard to pinpoint signs of infection/parasites when the PH is swinging and you are getting ammonia spikes.

BTW - have you been testing the 20g with the upside down fish at all?

"ph is 7.4 today, what is up"

I am hoping that the jug test I suggested might reveal what's happening with the water.

The only reason for PH to fall is that the source water lacks sufficient alkalinity to keep up with the level of acidity generated by the nitrogen cycle.

Or, there is some other agent at large which is reducing the alkalinity. Bogwood, driftwood, water conditioners, PH adjusters etc.

What about the buffer? Are you still using it? Tell us in detail what you are doing with it. Was it Buff it Up?

Any chance you might have forgotten to add de-chlor at any of the water changes? Easy to forget when you have so many tanks to keep on top of.

Sit down for a moment and collect your thoughts. Breathe! Re-read the past few posts. Try to answer everything and carry out the water tests. If you get yourself into a panic you won't be able to think.

PS. Just double checking here..... Are you sure you are testing KH rather than GH? The API kit comes with both. Check the label to be 100% sure.

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I am just soo frustrated. It doesn't help that I am really attached to my crazy fish!

Never, ever forget to de-chlorinate! It is 2:30 am here and I am changing tank water AGAIN. Couldn't sleep, dreaming of my crazy fish and of course when I got up to check on them.....water needed changing!

I will run the tests and yes it is KH, I don't have a GH test kit.

Thanks for you help, I am a total spaz, I know! It is just....well a month of upside down swimmers and constant water changes is exhausting!

Prior water changing right now....Amm 1, NO2 0, NO3 40, ph 7.4 (what is up with the amm & NO3) no matter how many times I read the cycling link I do not get why they co-exist and get so high?

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Have you tested the water out of the tap....It might have ammonia in it...sorry if thats been asked before...If so do you have Amquel or Prime to bind it...I myself now have Ammonia in the tap water so I have to add one of theses to my tank with water changes...yes the ammonia is there when i test but its the same level out of the tap water and is bond so it wont hurt my fish...

As for the nitrates see if thats in your tap water too...Some members have this in the tap water and is a pain to deal with..

If you can too, tell us what is in the tank...example : logs, ornaments and plants...some of these can play tricks on the water too :(

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How old is that kit, btw? Could it be out of date? Which one are you using? Just trying to think of everything, here.

You use Prime, right? Anything else, ever? Some things like AmQuel will give false readings and can also crash the PH under certain circumstances.

So, we'll wait for the tap results on amm and n'ate, as Koko suggests, and also remember the jug test for PH/KH.

Sorry it's such a nightmare.

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No amm out of tap.

Bought test kit in March.

I was using amquel plus, but recently switched to prime.

I just got the KH in the mail.

All are the API master test kit

I will let you know test results as soon as I can.

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OK - so now we are certain about the tap water.

In your shoes, I would raise the KH to at least 125ppm (about 7 drops) - 8 to 10 would be even better. Once you can get it to this level, the PH should hold steady. Follow the Buffer instructions on raising the tank alkalinity slowly.

You are in the less common position of having a high PH with a weaker alkalinity than expected; usually a PH of 8, scores much higher than 6 drops of KH.

Cycling the 60g will be much easier once the PH stops swinging around. Let us know how things shape up. It will be far easier to figure out the fishes health once the water is on track :)

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