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White Spot (not Ich) On Kahlua


CountryLovah

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Hi guys! This is not a thread for help, more a thread to fill in the previous help I got, and fill in what happened. You never know when someone can learn from another's experience. Also because then if I ever need to go back and see how things happened, I can find this easier without worrying about it being deleted from my inbox.

A few weeks ago, after Samantha had white strings from her mouth, I noticed a small spot on one of Kahlua's pectoral fins. I caught Imogen while she was online and decided to ask her about it real quick. Here's what I wrote:

Thanks again for all the great information you've been giving me in my Samantha thread.. I love learning these things, and your posts are soo informative and helpful. Andrea explained something in a similar way the other day, and I just love reading these long detailed posts full of facts that you can't really find anywhere else!

OKay now I've got a quick question about another fish (I swear I am not making this stuff up!!). I was looking at Kahlua today and she has one white spot on her pectoral fin. As always it's hard to tell but to me it looks fuzzy. Maybe a wound that is developing a fungus? It is NOT Ich, and it does not look like the anchor worm spot looked.

I am going to add 0.1% salt to her tank as well (different tank than Sams). I've been reading some of "Fancy Goldfish" and other threads. It sounds like a quick swipe with something topical would help, if the salt doesn't clear it? I've seen potassium permangate as an option which I have. I also have that bio-bandage & hydrogen peroxide. I am going to add the salt on my own, but I won't add anything to the spot until I hear from you.

Maybe I should have opened a thread, but I feel like if I send it to you in a PM we can get straight to the point and you don't have to sift through posts.. Hope that's cool!

Thanks! -Sue

Now her answer:

That's cool :D

One of my fish frequently gets these. I always think of it as "time to rinse out the filter media", which i do and then clean down the tank sides and floor. If the spots still there a day or two after that I may do a topical application (I use BB too -watch your hands etc it stains bad- and tincture of iodine..ONCE only..anymore and the good healing bacs die off too).

But taking a fish out of water is stressful whichever way you look at it so all said and done if you can fix it without that intervention= best) One fuzz spot is really not a cause for alarm but does mean the fish is a little weak and something in the tank is not perfect. Good luck. You are doing so well and have come so far so fast!

:heart

Now MY answer:

Thanks Imo!!

What frustrates me is that I feel like I am doing everything right to keep that water perfect!! But after reading your response, I question whether that is actually what's causing the harm! (you'll see what I mean) lol The particular tank with Kahlua (the one with the white spot) was getting DAILY water changes for the past month up until a week ago, when their QT ended. Here's a quick glance at their recent maintence schedule, to see if anything sticks out to you.

August 9 - 66% change

August 10- 66% change

August 11 - 66% change

August 12 - 100% change, cleaned filter, parts, etc thoroughly

(two days break here from prazi, ammonia & nitrite low, so no water changes)

August 15 -66% change

August 16 -100% change (rinse filter media in old tank water)

At this point their QT was done, Ammonia & nitrite dropped and maintained a level of zero, and nitrates remained 20 and lower..remember theres about 10ppm of nitrate in my tap water)

August 18- 100% water change (rinse filter media, cleaned filter) (did a 100% because I knew I was going to be gone most of this week)

August 24 - 100% water change (rinse filter media)

I've been doing the full changes, because since at the moment it is two fish in a 10 gallon, I wanted to get the extra bacteria out, and keep the nitrates down. The plan was to do a 66% one week, then a 100% every other week. Could it be possible that the full water changes, right after the stress of QT and a new home and the car ride, are actually the cause of stress here and are weakening the fish? Because it doesn't appear to be lack of water changes. Also, one week ago I added a second filter to their tank. Before it had a whisper internal that was 100gph. I cleaned that well and added a brand new aquaclear that pumps 100gph to it.. So their tank is now 200 gph on a 10 gallon. So cleanliness should NOT be an issue.

At this point my guesses are

1) The full water changes require removing the fish, which are actually causing them more stress. IN this case I could switch to a 66% change every three to four days, as opposed to the full water change weekly until they are moved to the 38 gallon.

2) (I really think this could be it too) All of my tanks have been cycled from the original 29 gallon which was disease filled. We know for a fact that it was exposed to Ich, Flukes and god knows what else. AND lets not forget, I put a fish in that tank that died within a week from MOUTH ROT!!! (I didn't know what it was at the time, but learned it after finding kokos. Immediatly when I saw strings on Sam this is where my mind went).

I was NOT cleaning that tank properly at all. We know that that tank was just FILLED with disease, and diseased fish and tons of bad bacteria. I used media from the 29 gallon to cycle Sam & Mirandas 10 gallon (and we know Sam was sick twice). I used media from THAT 10 BEFORE Sam got sick to cycle the 10 where Kahlua & Malibu are in. Now Kahlua has the spot.

Personally, this has been my biggest worry recently which is why I've cleaned both of the larger tanks with potassium permanganate according to Daryls instructions. I wanted a fresh start !! The 29 gallon is already disinfected, cleaned, rinsed and up & running. The 38 gallon has PP in it right now (I am actually just about to add some HP to it lol) Once the fish are moved into these tanks for good, I can then PP all of the 10 gallon filters, tanks, equipment that were originally exposed to the 29 gallon, and hopefully elimate all chances of disease spread. It's just handling everything in the mean time..

I don't know if you've seen my bacteria supplement experiment thread, but those buckets are all undergoing fishless cycles. Once they are complete I will have lots of bags of cycled filter media, which have never seen disease, that can be added to the 38 gallon for an instant cycle. Then the orandas can be moved, and I can feel secure. I am also planning on keeping an extra 5 gallon tank running with filters & media. It's just a matter of letting the cycles take their course.

Maybe I should have just opened a thread? lol

Good luck. You are doing so well and have come so far so fast!

Thanks! I am just soo interested in all the different aspects of this.. I can't get enough information LOL It was so nice this week, when your internet was out, and Sam had the strings, to be able to pull out some books, look up old threads, and do a little of my own research. And to be able to remain pretty calm and just think "Okay. What would Imogen recommend if she were talking to you right now". I knew you would say "stick with the salt a few more days".

So back to Kahlua, I think I will do the same. Salt to 0.1%, keep an eye on her, and if in a few days we are still seeing that spot I can try the bio-bandage.

One final question, that is about general fish health and not mine particular. (okay final question for NOW anyway).

I see Malachite Green listed often as a topical, and a bath. Also methylene blue, formalin, PP. Things like that. I now know that these products are harsh, and you want to stick to the safer methods if possible, and all of these when used as a water additive can be very dangerous, especially in water with a high PH like mine. Are they safer when used in as a quick wipe or swab on an infected area as opposed to a bath or dip? Do these chemicals expire? Right now the only one I even own is PP, and I have never used it for anything other than disinfecting tanks/equipment, nor do I see any reason to use any of them. But I've been seeing them listed in many places, and it's got me curious.

Once again, I assure you I am not rushing into meds..or have anything planned in which I want to even use them. At this point I am just trying to LEARN about them, so they don't seem as scary and confusing to me. Do you know what I mean?

Okay now for the update: (Give me a few minutes lol)

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Well, the good news is the spot is clearing up and nothing was added to the tank. It's a case of fresh water is best and I believe I have figured out what caused it.

Do you guys remmeber when I removed some media FROM Kahlua & Malibu's tank to start the cycle in Kharma & Kismets? Well, that night what I did was took the baggie of original media.. I divided the original bio-max into four parts. I left 1/4 in the old baggie, and then filled it to the top with new biomax. Then I took the rest and put 1/4 each in 3 NEW baggies... all filled to the top then with new bio-max. 2 of the baggies went into the filter on the 29 gallon. One of the baggies went back into the filter they came from on Kahlua & Malibu's tank. And the 4th baggie I placed in a NEW filter, that I also put back on Kahlua & Malibu's tank. SO half was on each tank.

Then I was gone for three days. When I came home I found the spot.. I hadn't even had time to test the water when I had written to Imo. As soon as I did, I found my problem. Ammonia... See, Kahlua & Malibu's tank had just had a bump in the cycle when I was giving them the salt and prazi during QT. It BARELY evened out, when I removed part of that media.. Apparently THAT then caused another cycle bump, most likely because the cycle had not been established for long at that point, and was not stable. Normally, I would be home to test the water daily AFTER removing half the media but I did it so last minute and I was gone for the next 3 days, so I couldn't.

The prime I added before I left would have worked for the first 24 hours. Normally, that is enough for the ammonia to be removed. However, because I was gone, and the bump occured right then, I wasn't there to change the water, OR add Prime.. Imo mentioned that these spots indicated SOMETHING in the water is not quite right. And sure enough, the ammonia had climbed to around 0.25. Now thats AFTER was gone, so its quite possible it had gotten higher, but was on the way down. No way we'll ever know now.

Proof that a TINY bit of ammonia, can truly cause a problem. Which is exactly why the first thing asked for in all cases, is water. And why the first thing recommended is often a test kit. AND why, if I had actually filled out a D&D form,instead of just going straight to Imo, I would have had to test the water FIRST, found the ammonia, and found my problem before I wrote all of that! LOL

I gave the tank an immediate water change, and decided to NOT salt. I figured if I was correct in assuming that the cycle bump had caused the spot, then adding salt might potentially bump the cycle further, and make things WOSE. Instead I would go back to the basics and try fresh clean water. Nothing else.. The spot stayed the same for a few days, without getting worse. Then, it started getting smaller. It's almost gone now : )

So the reason I decided to post this, is just to show how the simple things like fresh water, can be all that is needed is some cases. And of course to show how a teeny bit of ammonia, can really make a differnce in a BAD way : )

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Very interesting, especially in light of the fact that I've been watching a tiny white spot on Blue's right caudal fin. I can't tell if it's fungusy or a bump in the skin, though. My da**ed eyes.... I'm so blind. It's been there for about a week/week and a half. With two goldies in a 60 gallon, high ammonia, etc., is not my issue; I never get any readings at all on any of those things, so, bad bacteria has only ever really been my enemy. And I've been excellent with my water changes and vacuuming since poor Leroy got sick. I just did a 100% water change two weeks ago.

I was thinking about swabbing vs. treating the tank or qt-ing, but danged California and their PP issues! I can look for Permoxyn, but..... I don't know. I was wondering, though, about swabbing with hydrogen peroxide and whether that would work. So much easier to get and if it did/does the same thing.....

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Lynda keep me updated about how the spot on Blue... I am curious about that now even more.

Kahlua's is not cleared all the way yet.. Can you get the bio-bandage where you are? I think thats what I am going to try first.

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I've never looked for the bio-bandage, so I'm not sure, but, it doesn't appear to have anything "dangerous," by a California standard, so I think the only thing would be to find a store that recognized it's use and value, in other words, not the chain stores! The white is still there. Hasn't ever gotten any bigger, and maybe I just want to see this, but it looks as if it may be an ever so slight milimeter smaller....

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Even a little smaller is good right?? Kahlua's is definately getting smaller..I see no reason to do anything as long as it's improving, even if slowly.. She is perfect in every other way.. Hopefully Kahlua AND Blue can get rid of these little things, so we can stop worrying so much!!!! We are worse than moms with kids who have scraped their knees!! LOL They stick on a bandaid, and let it go. We are like "but the spot!! Is it bigger? Should we do surgery???? Should we call in the troops???? HELP"

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The amazing thing I have found is that my eye has finally been trained, even subconsciously now, to just inspect my fish top to bottom, front to back, every time I look at them. I don't even have to do it intentionally anymore. It just automatically happens. Years ago, I wouldn't have known to do that. I see things I would have never seen then. I know their little bodies as well as my own!

Oh, and the spot is definitely going away. The way Blue and Jackson chase each other, it's not a surprise that bumps and scrapes and bruises happen! Jackson has gotten two different tears in his fins that I'm sure came from the chasing, but they healed completely in a week's or less time, so maybe this thing on Blue happened from him scraping his fin during one of their daily chase scenes.

Blue does most of the chasing, but I've seen Jackson be the instigator at times. And the cute thing is, just when I think Blue is driving Jackson crazy with the chasing, Blue will back off and quit and swim away, and Jackson will spin around and come zooming up behind him and start the chasing all over again! So, I've decided they like chasing each other around and I've given up on telling them to stop.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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The spot on Kahlua never fully disappeared, however, I was hesitant to try to dab the spot because it is close to her gills.. I hoped that clean water would do the trick.. It seemed to go down, but never fully go away.. Then last night I found a second spot on her doral fin.. One white spot, looks raised, and possibly fuzzy. There is a bit of red surrounding the area.

Because of the recent problems with Samantha and columnaris, I believe this could be the same thing. Also, the white spot on tail/fin with red surrounding it seems to fit exactly with the descriptions of the way columnaris infections begin.

Like I said before, the original filter was put on Samantha & Mirandas tank. Then I used media from it to seed Kahlua & Malibu's tank. This leads me to believe that all the fish are dealing with the same thing, but Samantha was most vulnerable to it because she was sick when I got her.. I think with Kahlua she is very strong, but it is beginning to affect her.

My plan is to swab the spot on her dorsal. Question, do I swab with HP first, then follow it with the biobandage, or JUST the biobandage.. With Samantha I tried 0.1% salt, and that delayed it. Then started Metromeds, which didn't seem to do anything.. Then did a 4 day treatment of Triple Sulfa.. So if things get worse for Kahlua, I am thinking of skipping the MetroMeds and going straight to the Triple Sulfa.. Is that a good plan? I assume I should start with 0.1% salt before trying either though, correct?

First step will be a good filter cleaning and large water change. She is not acting sick so there is no rush here, and I prefer to wait for an answer before starting anything..

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Some pics.. Blurry but...

Kahlua's first spot that has been there for a while now. See how close it is to her gills?

KahluaSpot1.jpg

Kahlua's New spot I found last night:

KahluaSpot2.jpg

CloseUp. Looks like the beginnings of an anchor worm almost, but so did the first spot and a worm never showed up. But that is what it looks like.

KahluaSpot2Zoom.jpg

The newest spot on the other side.. The white is on the first side. From this side you can only see some red:

KahluaSpot2OtherSide.jpg

The amazing thing I have found is that my eye has finally been trained, even subconsciously now, to just inspect my fish top to bottom, front to back, every time I look at them. I don't even have to do it intentionally anymore. It just automatically happens. Years ago, I wouldn't have known to do that. I see things I would have never seen then. I know their little bodies as well as my own!

I agree Lynda! I do this too.. Thats how I noticed the spot last night... Before I would have never seen it, and now I notice a problem when it is barely there. I really think it helps with their treatment. Before it would have taken them bottom sitting, or clamping or something and by then it's sometimes too late. Now I see a teeny spot and am like "whats that! Let's get it!"

So Lynda, the spot on Blue.. did it go away completely??

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Wow..I see the spot..hmm..good to exactly understand wats going on..lemme research as well..I will post in some time...Sue, I really hope things get better..its soo difficult to see these lil guys havinf some problem...ohhh...I am around... :hug

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This is really cool. I've been too busy to read a lot of the threads lately and haven't seen any of the white spot stuff..but am I ever glad I took a peek! I've had fish with spots like that before, I'm going to sit down tomorrow and read all of the info that's been posted. Thanks agian :D

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Those white spots surrounded by pink do tend to be columnaris type pimples especially situated on fins. The ones that are more fuzzy/hairy and raised up with no pink at all are fungal spores, and the ones that have a short thingy growing out of 'em with often pink surrounding the whitehead are as we all know of course.....those nasty b*s anchor wuuuuuuuurms :sick

Then big bubbly fermented warty looking ones are viral and the pus filled larger white ones are usually miscellaneous bacterial.

The columnaris and fungal spots are easily treated topically. The fungal ones actually can often be gently rubbed off (into a bowl or separate tank of course) with thumb and forefinger.

These ones on Kahlua look like the columnaris pimples so are a warning that you have it on board..still. I've seen many fish heal these pimples themselves with low salt. Others need meds. Some will heal just with the topical.

One thing to remember with topical applications is a) they can be stressful and b) not to repeat them too many times. You see the hp or biobandage kills all the bacteria in the area, good and bad alike. Rather like those strong soaps used in hospitals? With overuse they destroy the skins natural protective coating of good bacteria. All the fishes good bacteria are right there on the surface of the slime coat, 24 hours a day producing sodium hypochlorite -a kind of bleach- to kill invading landing bad bacteria. If you repeat topicals too many times, these good bac die back too and cannot protect the fish.

Once a day for a few days should be enough.

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Those white spots surrounded by pink do tend to be columnaris type pimples especially situated on fins. The ones that are more fuzzy/hairy and raised up with no pink at all are fungal spores, and the ones that have a short thingy growing out of 'em with often pink surrounding the whitehead are as we all know of course.....those nasty b*s anchor wuuuuuuuurms :sick

Then big bubbly fermented warty looking ones are viral and the pus filled larger white ones are usually miscellaneous bacterial.

The columnaris and fungal spots are easily treated topically. The fungal ones actually can often be gently rubbed off (into a bowl or separate tank of course) with thumb and forefinger.

These ones on Kahlua look like the columnaris pimples so are a warning that you have it on board..still. I've seen many fish heal these pimples themselves with low salt. Others need meds. Some will heal just with the topical.

One thing to remember with topical applications is a) they can be stressful and b) not to repeat them too many times. You see the hp or biobandage kills all the bacteria in the area, good and bad alike. Rather like those strong soaps used in hospitals? With overuse they destroy the skins natural protective coating of good bacteria. All the fishes good bacteria are right there on the surface of the slime coat, 24 hours a day producing sodium hypochlorite -a kind of bleach- to kill invading landing bad bacteria. If you repeat topicals too many times, these good bac die back too and cannot protect the fish.

Once a day for a few days should be enough.

Thank you, this was really informative!!!!! : )

I am going to dab her topically today. Now, I have another question: : )

Clearly the columnaris bactieria is still on board like you said. And I am assuming that it is present in ALL the tanks that were seeded from the original filter. Kharma & Kismet should be safe. (They are the ones that came from Ken) They were in a fully disinfected tank (done twice with pp) and a brand new filter with newly cycled filter media that has never touched anything else. Also, I always make sure to do anything do their tank FIRST, that way I am never putting my hands near or in in the tank after it has touched another tank.. I knew they came safe, and wanted to keep it that way.. Sounds good right?

However, this also means that the rest of the fish, Samantha & Miranda in the one tank, Kahlua & Malibu in the second, and Angel in the third, most likely all have this bacteria in their tanks... We know Sam & Miranda do, and now it appears Kahlua & Malibu do..

Now, the goal here has always been to get the 4 orandas together in the 40ish gallon tank. However, they have been sick off and on, so it hasn't happened yet. I want to make sure they are all healthy when I make the move, that wayt nothing is unneccessarily brought into the 40 gallon. At this point the 40 gallon tank has been PPed, and I have fully cycled media to add to the tank.. Everything is ready for them, except the fish..

Soo, my question is, is the bacteria in the tank, and media for the main part? If I were to switch all 4 orandas into this new bacteria free tank, would the columnaris still transfer over because they are on the fish? I know sometimes people dip their fish, before putting them into a new tank. Is this an option here, or would this just cause too much stress on them.. I think they would all benefit from being in the 40 gallon tank, so they all have more water volume. However, I JUST treated Samantha & Miranda, and I am afraid addng Kahlua (who currently has the spots) would not be a good idea. I wouldn't want anything to spread BACK to Samantha!!!

So any suggestions?

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Hmmmm..a tough call...I know what you mean by giving them more space..and that will also help fast recovery..but at the moment since Kahlua has stuff..and Sam is on the way of getting better..heres what I think..Just my suggestion..

Since Sam and Miranda are in one tank and are getting medications (oh..I guess am assuming they both are together and receiving same medications..is this correct??)...if this is the case..then you could move both of them into the 40 together..this would definitely transfer things...but this wud give them a chance to heal better in a bigger space...

After that you have Kahlua and Malibu in one tank...Malibu isnt showing any signs yet...so what you could do is...PP and clean out Sam and Miranda's tank..I would even get rid of all the media..and transfer Malibu in there...you could either cycle the tank with her..or get some media from Kharma's tank (since you had fresh media there)..keep Kahlua in his tank...changing his media by seeding from Kharma's tank might help...

Dip...the idea is to remove its slime coat and with it all the bad parasites on its skin...thts the most stressful thing for a fish..the way its done is a 0.5% salt and water solution..dip the fish...all the slime coat wears off in thte salt...and sometimes the fish even passes out...so yeah imagine the stress...Not a good idea...there are huge chances of losing a fish...this is just some info from a site I had read..I may be totally wrong...

Does this sound ok???...umm...lemme know..take care Sue...Get well guys... :)

Edited by SunshineGurl
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The columnaris and fungal spots are easily treated topically. The fungal ones actually can often be gently rubbed off (into a bowl or separate tank of course) with thumb and forefinger.

The white spot on my Blue does not look fuzzy, so pimple is a good word to describe it. And yes, it's still there. It's on the caudal fin right at a funky, kind of genetic bend in the fin, so I'm half wondering if it isn't a mutant growth of the fin ray. But, I have been considering taking him up and seeing if it would rub off, so hearing that I can try this, is good info. Then, maybe I'll know better what I'm dealing with if I "touch" it. He's not going to like it, but, hey!, it's for his own good!

So, my question is, is the bacteria in the tank, and media for the main part? If I were to switch all 4 orandas into this new bacteria free tank, would the columnaris still transfer over because they are on the fish? I know sometimes people dip their fish, before putting them into a new tank. Is this an option here, or would this just cause too much stress on them.. I think they would all benefit from being in the 40 gallon tank, so they all have more water volume. However, I JUST treated Samantha & Miranda, and I am afraid addng Kahlua (who currently has the spots) would not be a good idea. I wouldn't want anything to spread BACK to Samantha!!!

While, yes, the bacteria is in the tank and media, it's also on the fish, so transferring them transfers the bacteria too. And, it seems to me that, even though you're treating all your fish, they may have different levels of infections and even different types of infections, so mixing them up might just make things worse for those who don't have things as badly as someone else. Dipping is just like a super dose of the salt/med, but it's not a miracle cure and won't immediately get rid of the bacteria, so they'd still be bringing stuff with them. It's frustrating not being able to put all the kids together, but, in the long run, patience will be your friend.

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Thank you JC & Lynda!

Dip...the idea is to remove its slime coat and with it all the bad parasites on its skin...thts the most stressful thing for a fish..the way its done is a 0.5% salt and water solution..dip the fish...all the slime coat wears off in thte salt...and sometimes the fish even passes out...so yeah imagine the stress...Not a good idea...there are huge chances of losing a fish...this is just some info from a site I had read..I may be totally wrong...
Dipping is just like a super dose of the salt/med, but it's not a miracle cure and won't immediately get rid of the bacteria, so they'd still be bringing stuff with them.

Dipping sounds quite scary and stressful and everything I have read on it makes it sound not worth the risk. The only way I was even going to consider it was if doing so before transferring them to the tank would eliminate all possibilites of transferring the bacteria. Since it does not, I will not even consider this.. Off the table.

(oh..I guess am assuming they both are together and receiving same medications..is this correct??)...

Yes you are correct!

Since Sam and Miranda are in one tank and are getting medications if this is the case..then you could move both of them into the 40 together..this would definitely transfer things...but this wud give them a chance to heal better in a bigger space...
While, yes, the bacteria is in the tank and media, it's also on the fish, so transferring them transfers the bacteria too. And, it seems to me that, even though you're treating all your fish, they may have different levels of infections and even different types of infections, so mixing them up might just make things worse for those who don't have things as badly as someone else. It's frustrating not being able to put all the kids together, but, in the long run, patience will be your friend

Having them apart isn't that big of a deal for me. I actually kind of LIKE it the way they are now...And what you said Lynda makes perfect sense... But I think right now the main reason I am in a rush to get them together is NOT because I want to see them together but because I would like to see them with a larger volume of water..(like JC said) I think that might help the situation.. Part of me thinks it is best to keep Samantha in QT, but another part of me thinks she may benefit from a nice big space. Also, by moving her to the 40 gallon I can get her off the floor, therefore less 100% changes, and easier maintence. (Syphon will work).

But basically you guys confirmed what I was thinking. Combining them all right now is a bad idea..

Now, the question is, should I move one set of them now giving them more water volume and hopefully helping them heal faster (like Sunshine suggested I just move Samantha & Miranda, which might be a really good idea!!!) .. Or do I want to wait until all fish are in perfect health before I move ANY of them to the 40 gallon, thereby keeping that thank as disease free as possible. Sometimes I feel bad knowing that they are sharing two 10 gallon QT's when a bigger tank is waiting them. But sometimes I do think it's best to keep them apart and where they are at until everything gets straighted out, so that when they are moved to the tank, nothing (or at least as little as possible) is carried over. Decisions desisions...

I tend to ask you guys questions and you usual confirm what I am already thinking, but it helps to have the opinions out there. I value your opinions very much! : ) Thanks girls!!

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Now, the question is, should I move one set of them now giving them more water volume and hopefully helping them heal faster (like Sunshine suggested I just move Samantha & Miranda, which might be a really good idea!!!) .. Or do I want to wait until all fish are in perfect health before I move ANY of them to the 40 gallon, thereby keeping that thank as disease free as possible. Sometimes I feel bad knowing that they are sharing two 10 gallon QT's when a bigger tank is waiting them. But sometimes I do think it's best to keep them apart and where they are at until everything gets straighted out, so that when they are moved to the tank, nothing (or at least as little as possible) is carried over. Decisions desisions...

I tend to ask you guys questions and you usual confirm what I am already thinking, but it helps to have the opinions out there. I value your opinions very much! : ) Thanks girls!!

I know what you mean by this..I totally thought abt the 40 being as disease free as possible..and not having them in there...but doing it..would also mean you will have individual QT for Kahlua and Malibu will be in a healthy tank separate from all this...when you know all are doing fine..I know its a lot of work..but cleaning out the 40 shudnt be sooo difficult..I know lately so much stuff is going on with the babies..tht ur always into cleaning and water changing and yada yada..but this cud help..Although a part of me says dont transfer any in the 40..something says this cud be beneficial..but yeah this will be totally ur call...if you wanna do this or not will be totally ur comfort level...having them away like this is also working out...so again as I said a tough call....umm..wat do u think..I am in 2 minds as well.. :( ..but I ll support anything u decide.. :heart

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Hmm a final option is this: (Similar to JC's but backwards)

I could put Kahlua & Malibu into the 40 gallon. (other than 2 small spots Kahlua is completely normal.) Maybe a fresh tank with new media and a larger volume would be enough to help HER fight it off.. : )

Then I could PP their old tank... I have 3 baggies of filter media available to me.. That means 2 could go in the 40, and one could go in the newly PPed tank that was once Kahlua & Malibus. Then I could move Samantha & Miranda in there. So they would 1) be off the floor for easy cleaning. I could do partial water changes much easier and more often for even better water conditions. 2) They would actually be in a clean disinfected tank, but not WITH Kahlua & Malibu, so they could still be treated seperate if needed, but would have the benefits of a disinfected tank/filter/new media.

Then I could still clean the empty one (which was Sam & Mirandas) in case either Samantha OR Kahlua got worse, and needed to be removed from Miranda or Malibu.

I know that seems confusing, but are you guys with me?? LOL

I actually think this might be the best plan. WHat do you girls think?

OH yes... I did treat Kahlua with the biobandage. I assumed it would work on the dorsal fin spot, but not the original spot. Opposite! The dorsal fin clamps when removing her from the water and it's simply to hard to get to, at least without someones help. I will try again tomorrow, but don't want to stress her more today. With the first spot (the one that was near her gill)the clamping HELPED! By clamping, it was far away from her gills and easily accessible!!! So that spot got treated and the newer spot did not.

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I think this new tank move proposal sounds fine. You have my go ahead.

Never thought about the fin clamping like that! Interesting! And I have no idea how to bypass that! You can't pull on it for fear of tearing it!.... so what do you do?! hmmm.....

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This is kind of off topic, but I was just thinking. It's funny how we are able to help others with their fish, and we know the basics, but when it's OUR fish we (or at least I) start second guessing ourselves.. I think thats why this board is great. Even though some of us are always helping with other people, when one of us has a problem, we can still turn to each other for help, and sometimes that gives us something we would have forgotten, or sometimes just the reassurance that we are doing things right is helpful..

I think this new tank move proposal sounds fine. You have my go ahead

Thank you Lady Von G LMAO.. Actually I am modifying the plan a bit, but you will like this too! : ) Maybe even MORE!!!

Right now I have three 10 gallon tanks. 2 are occupied. ONe of them has been fish free except for a few hours when Kharma & Kismet were in there when they first arrived. So this tank, is pretty ###### safe I would say. Now, I have good filters for 2 out of the three. But one of those filters will be needed when I switch over to the 40 gallon.. (right now that only has 350gph, so when I actually use the tank it will need another filter).

Soooo.. PLAN:

Set up the 55 gallon stand SOMEWHERE in the same room as the 40 gallon tank is. (I have to put it together and clear out a space, but it doesn't have to be it's permanent space) Buy another filter.. Somewhere between 100-200gph.. Probably Penguin Bio-wheel I like those. PP the extra 10 gallon. (even though very little has touched it anyway). Set it up on the stand, Add brand new filter, and one baggie of cycled media. Add ammonia, let it fishless cycle (should happen VERY quickly).

Once it's ready I will move Samantha & Miranda in there. That gives them a mostly bacteria free environment still, but I don't have to contaminate the 40 gallon.. AND it allows me to use the syphon. Then, I can PP the tank that is left empty from Samantha & Miranda and the filter thats in there. Set it up next to the other one (the stand will fit both, i bought it for this purpost). Add new baggie of media, let it cycle. Once THAT is complete, move Kahlua & Malibu in there...

That leaves me with all 4 orandas in mostly bacteria free environments in the same room as the tank they will be eventually moved to, so temperature is NOT an issue, and the stress that comes along with the move when the time comes will be minimal..

Meanwhile, I can take the 3rd baggie, and allow the 40 gallon to become fully cycled. (Again shouldn't take long). Then once I see either one or both sets of fish as healthy as can be, I can THEN move them. Almost like a long term dip, just without the salt lol Rather than transferring them directly from their bacteria filled tanks, to the fresh one, they will have a sorta of QT period.

Are you guys with me?? LMAO

I like this plan the best so far : ) Give me another few days and god knows what I will come up with huh?? LOL

Never thought about the fin clamping like that! Interesting! And I have no idea how to bypass that! You can't pull on it for fear of tearing it!.... so what do you do?! hmmm.....

I know I would have NEVER thought of this! Weird huh?? I considered having Shane help me.. You can almost see the spot but it would just need to be moved a tad. But I can't do that alone. I would have to hold her and let shane dab her. I'm not going to do anything with it unless it gets worse, because as of now it appears to be getting better, and all I have done was the 100% water change.. And the other spot I dabbed with the biobandage looks better too. Could be just a coincidence of course..

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You've thought this through very carefully, right down to matching temperature and room conditions and the close proximity of tanks to reduce moving stress. Sounds well thought out to me and should work just great!

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You've thought this through very carefully, right down to matching temperature and room conditions and the close proximity of tanks to reduce moving stress. Sounds well thought out to me and should work just great!

:exactly

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