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Guest Bravepills

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Guest Bravepills

Hi people

Over the past few days I noticed that one pouch of my bubble eye eye's had become deflated, but today it looks as though the other has become defalted aswell! At first I thought Heinbourg (the bubble eyes name) must have punctured it on the gravel, but I've had him 6 months, so it seems too much of a coincidence that he broke both pouches in just a couple of days!

Also I've noticed a some sort of white threads, almost like tiny puffs of smoke in the tank, and Heinbourg has a bit of smudgy white on his deflated bubbles. Although he looks a little odd, he's acting ok.

He's in a 35l (about 7.5g) tank with a blackmoor and 3 zebra danios (which do not attack), I recently added a very small hillside loach. The blackmoor seems ok, and the danios seem perfectly happy just zipping around the top of the tank, and the loach sticks on the glass as they do, but seems fine.

I'm pretty much a noob, I have no idea on ph or nitrate and nitrite levels, but would appreciate any advice you could give me.

I've currently got a bucket full of water - treated - and just waiting for the chlorine and stuff to escape before changing 50% of the water.

Any help would be much apreciated

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  • Regular Member

Hello Bravepills,

I am sorry for your bubble eye fish....It would be really nice if you could post answers to the above questions in the box. For ease here they are:

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level?

[*]Nitrite Level?

[*]Nitrate level?

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

[*]Water temperature?

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)?

[*]How often do you change the water and how much?

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size?

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners?

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often?

[*]Any new fish added to the tank?

[*]Any medications added to the tank?

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

What bothers me the most is that your tank is only 7.5 gallons with 2 goldfish and danios...that is way way overstocked...each fancy requires 10 gallons to itself..for the fish you have ideally the tank should be nothing less than 30 gallons with a filter of 350-400gph...However please post the answers and we will take it ahead from there...

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Guest Bravepills

First up, thanks for your rapid response, much appreciated.

You mentioned the overstocking, in which I agree.

I believed my 1 bubble eye and the danios were ok, the blackmoor was introduced after much pestering from the wife, and the 'expert' at the fish shop said '1 more goldfish would be fine' so I gave in. Also, its interesting that the box that came with the tank suggests that 5 goldfish are ok! I digress.

As for levels of ph etc. I do not know, once again, the local 'expert' never mentioned to monitor levels of anything, I will buy a kit on saturday, or take my water to be tested.

my filter is : Elite Stingray

I change water 40% weekly (though about to change it 50% tonight)

2 goldfish (blackmoor, bubble eye, both small - just over 1")

3 danios - below and up to 1"

1 hillside loach - 3/4 of 1"

feed fish flake food twice a day, feed live blood worms once a week (1 feed a day, no flakes)

hillside loach is new by 1 week

used 'aqua plus' and 'cycle' both made by 'nutrafin' when tank was purchased. Use 'aquasafe' by 'tetreaqua' to treat water before changing water

As for strange behaviour, the bubble eye (apart from what I said in first post) seems fine. Blackmoor is sat on gravel, this is brand new, i'll keep my eye on him, danios look fine

I mentioned the 'small smoke' type stuff and white smudge in first post.

This is all I know at this point.

Please don't flame me, I'm new to this, and enjoy it, i may have been mislead by unscrupulous merchants, but I intend to carry on and run a succesfull aquarium

Edited by Bravepills
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oh no..no one will flame you..please..we have all been there...everyone I guess starts with wrong setups and then learns with time..its ok to make errors..but gr8 to know you wanna make it right...

I dont think you have quarantined the loach..you see a new fish always bring s a lot of diseases or bad bacteria with them..it is of a very high risk to introduce a new fish to an old tank without quarantining it..I have been there... :blink: ...I actually am still fighting the situation..ahh..neways..and I had no clue abt the loach..it would really be advisable to start looking for a huge tank..and get things set up asap..

Also for the water results and action to be taken...Saturday seems too far...you might be risking your fish here..I mean I really would act on this like asap.. :krazy: ..now tht ur moor is bottom sitting..its kinda freaking me out.. :blink: ....umm any possibilty you could get the pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrate tests???drop tests are gr8..I would recommend drop tests against strips...umm and yeah a water change will be very helpful..I am guessing the ammonia levels are very high...maybe I am not seeing it..how long has this tank been set up for???

I would not suggest anything unless the water parameters are posted..cos bad parameters and meds do not go together..also unless parameters are known, the sickness cannot be diagnosed..However in ur case..I would recommend a 55 gallon tank asap..tht will solve half of your problems..and then to deal with the buggy guys or anything would follow...I hope all this makes sense..hope you act on this fast.. :) ..I am sure a moderator and more experienced member will be able to help you more..I am new myself..however, I can try and help until someone answers your questions...

Edited by SunshineGurl
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Guest Bravepills

The tank is only 3 week old, it is several litres larger then the previous tank and was purchased because I felt it was too crowded. After what you have said it would seem I was right to upgrade, but obviously not enough.

I left it a day before I put the fish in, and they seemed very perky in it.

To purchase a larger tank at this time is simply financialy impossible, though i can set up my smaller tank and put one of the goldfish in that.

The loach was indeed put directly in the tank, yes i know, i messed up big.

I'm now wondering if the loach brought parasites in with it, as the fish seemed happy and healthy before its intro.

unfortunately due to work commitments I'm unable to visit the fish shop until weekend.

Are there any kits available that are permanent, ie. not just a strip you test with and throw away?

Your help is great, i'm learning all the time, i'll have my L plates for a while though lol

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I totally understand that financially it may not be possible for you get a bigger tank.. :) ..but what most of the people here do is..get huge rubbermaid tubs..I myself have an 18 gallon set up for my sick fish...i got it for like 6$..seriously the cheapest setup you can have for your fish...and they are big ones...so you have ample of space for your fish..you could get a 20gallon for both of them..cheap and easily available in any departmental store...whenever possible you can get a tank in future...

what seems good would be to return the loach...and if you can set up a plastic tub for your goldfish with a good filter..like a 200-300gph...that would be the best home for your fish...although temporary until you get your tank...the danios can stay in the 7.5 by themselves.. :) ...

Hmm...3 weeks only..which means its not cycled at all...you can read about cycling a fish tank here...umm..I am gonna say..Read it.. :P ..no seriously.. :) .. http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html ....This is a very important process where you let good bacteria grow so that they can eat the ammonia produced by the fish and convert into nitrites and finally into nitrates...also in a 7.5 gallon you started with a lot of fish...so a lot of ammonia is produced..besides goldfish are the messiest fish..so there is a lot of ammonia building up...while cycling with fish, you need to change water everyday..a lot of work but needed...otherwise proves fatal.. :( ...

yeah loach could have done something..but we cannot neglect that there has been a lot of ammonia building up in there..with and extra loach, umm extra waste..and no bacteria established..so a lot of factors working against the fish...

As for permanant tests, I don't think there exists anything like that...drop test kits are the best..they give correct results and last longer than strips..I would really avoid the test strips...drop test kits for ammonia, pH, nitrites and nitrates would be gr88...Naww..I am not so gr8..I am learning myself..but have learnt quite a lot dealing with my sick fish for the past 2-3 weeks..but am getting there..I made a mistake of not quarantining my 2nd goldfish..and both went down...but they are getting better now..so yeah..I am trying to help as much as I can.. :)

Until you can get stuff over the weekend it is a good idea to change almost 100% water everyday..it is always a good idea to test water for pH and temperature and stuff..but well currently just a water change would be gr88 too...

I must say..this will be some good amount of work..but trust me its totally worth it...once you are ready we can try and diagnose the problems.. :) ...you could really go with the plastic tub plan..think abt it..and let us know how it goes.. :) ..everyone here will be glad to help you out with your fish..but diligence and hard work has to be totally yours.. :) ..Again it is nice to know that you want to make all this right..very few ppl realize these things..I am glad you are learning and hope we can get your fish back in good shape and health..good luck.. :) ...

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Sunshine Gurl has learned a lot! She's given you some great advice. Don't feel bad for being a beginner and making mistakes. We all started there and none of us, sadly, started at the top knowing everything. So, if it sounds like we're "flaming" on you, it's just that we're trying to help and just get a little "enthusiastic" sometimes. So, here are some things to know:

1) Never listen to the advice given in pet stores, especially the chain stores, but even the local shops.

2) Goldfish and tropicals really shouldn't be living together.

3) As JC said, 10 gallons per goldfish is the absolute minimum. Because of the way goldfish's internal organs are structured, they produce massive quantities of waste and, as such, need a lot of water to process the resulting ammonia.

4) Because of this high waste production, goldfish need more powerful filters than other fish. The rule is that a filter for goldfish move 10 times the water per hour as the size of the tank.

5) Because of this high waste production, you must test your water every day while the tank is cycling and at least once a week after it has cycled.

6) Failure to keep the water in pristine conditions will invite bacterial infections into the tank.

Now, here are the things you should do:

1) Buy a 20 gallon tank or rubbermaid type plastic bin.

2) Separate your goldfish and tropicals permanently. Leave your tropicals in the 7.5 gallon tank.

3) Move your goldies into the 20 gallon tank/tub. They need pristine water conditions immediately.

4) Buy a 200 gph filter for the 20 gallon tank/tub.

5) Buy drop test kits for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and ph.

6) Until both your tanks cycle, you will need to do daily tests on your water and do very large daily water changes (easily 90%) based on those tests.

7) Buy aquarium salt or other non-iodized rock type salt.

8) Order/buy pure praziquantel.

When you are cycling a tank, ammonia will show first. Then you will see your ammonia drop and you will get a spike in nitrites. Then, you will see your nitrites drop and you will get a spike in nitrates. When you get your nitrates at 20 ppm or below, your tank is cycled. Cycling takes at least a month and up to 2 months easily. You must keep these readings as close to 0 as possible. That's where the 90% water changes come in.

It is virtually without question that your fish come from the shop with some sort of underlying bacteria and/or flukes. So, when you bring home new fish, you must quarantine them and treat them for both. Salt and prazi are the recommended treatments and they can be mixed together at the same time. You are in England and I understand you don't have access to certain meds that we do, but you can order Hikari Prazi Pro online; however, I don't know if there are any sort of shipping restrictions.

It sounds like your bubble eye has fungus, which, most likely was brought on by poor water conditions. Salt should treat that. And, as your other fish has been exposed, nor was given the general quarantine treated when brought home from the store, you can treat both fish together. You shouldn't use table salt or anything that has been iodized. Aquarium salt, rock salt, kosher salt, pickling salt, etc. Adding salt is referenced in volume, i.e., 0.1%, 0.2% and 0.3%. 0.1% = 1 tsp salt per 1 gallon water. 0.2% = 2 tsp salt per 1 gallon water. 0.3% = 3 tsp salt per 1 gallon water. You will start with 0.1%. After 12 hours, bring the salt up to 0.2%. After another 12 hours, bring the salt up to 0.3%.

Remember that, when you do your water changes, you are removing equal amounts of salt. So, if you did a 50% water change, you're removing 50% of the salt, so you would need to add in 50% more salt of the percent volume you were at at the time of the change. Same with the prazi.

All water changes should be temperature matched and treated with dechlorinator. Letting water sit out really isn't needed if you use dechlorinator because dechlorinators work immediately. And, while letting water sit out may get rid of chlorine, it doesn't get rid of chloramines or other trace elements, so you must use a dechlorinator.

It sounds like your fish is not doing well, so please do all of these things as soon as possible. Let us know of worsening changes or changes in your other goldy. Good luck!

Edited by Lynda Von G
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ahhh..this is professional advice.. :) ...I would have never been able to summarize it so nicely :exactly ....so here we go Bravepills...we have Lynda helping you out too...all you have to do now is act on it as soon as you can.. :) ..let us know... :) ...

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Lynda & SunshineGurl has given you great advice. However (and I'm really sorry SunshineGurl & Lynda), they are "best-scenario" advice, meaning they need a lot of work both physically & financially from you in order to do it correctly, and unfortunately not every person looking for solution to their goldfish problem is a "best-scenario" person, and might be overwhelmed by what they need to do to provide ideal living conditions for their goldfish.

I'm going to give you a few simple advice that's easy to do & only involves a little bit more cooperation from you, that will buy you time while you slowly get things together step by step, k? :)

1. 7.5 gallons isn't all that bad. It's certainly not suitable for long-term, but if your 2 fish is only very little (5 cm long or less) then it'll do for now. However you are currently in the process of cycling and to make things simple without getting to the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate stuff, a 50% change 2 times a week for another 4 weeks should be sufficient as long as you don't gorge your fish on food :)

2. What you need In the long run though, as Lynda & SunshineGurl said, you need at least a 20 gallon tank (80 litres) to accommodate both goldfish and ideally larger if you intend to keep the danios and hillstream loach. No they aren't big fish, but they do produce waste and the bigger volume you got, the greater margin for error you have. The hillstream loach have similar temperature requirements as goldfish, but they need a considerably current in the tank to be really happy. The danios will be fine as long as you keep the temperature around 20 C.

3. Now about your deflated bubbles on your bubble eyes. Well, it's not good, but it's not bad also. As long as you keep the water pristine (by doing the required waterchanges) to keep them from infected, they'll heal and eventually be back to normal.

4. If you can take a picture of the "white smudge" on your bubble-eyes' bubbles (and a picture of your tank and other inhabitants will be geat also while you're at it) then we can diagnose whether it's fungus or not, then subsequently take further steps to treat it.

5. Sorry to Lynda, however I'm not confident that you need to buy any meds for now. Meds are usually is a last resort thing and while having them is great, the best course of action for now is to keep your water in pristine conditions, which is achieved by doing waterchanges. We are not so much "fish-keepers", but "water-keepers" applies to us much better.

Alrite, that's all I can say for now. I'll be looking forward to your reply and possibly a picture or two ;)

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Guest Bravepills

ok, as I said, I can't get to fish shop until tommorow.

I've put the blackmoor into the smaller tank on his own, he allready seems more lively!

I changed 50% water last night, I will change more (90%) daily as you advised and hopefully things will improve.

I'll try get a pic up soon as.

Thanks all, I'll report back.

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dgolem, absolutely true! This IS best scenario advice and it's understood that Bravepills is not financially able to do all this now. One step at a time, for sure! I suppose what I was doing was just setting up the "big picture" shopping list for him so he knows the overalls of what needs to be ultimately done. Oh, and, short of prazi, which is standard treatment, I didn't suggest any other meds. Would never! :D

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dgolem, absolutely true! This IS best scenario advice and it's understood that Bravepills is not financially able to do all this now. One step at a time, for sure! I suppose what I was doing was just setting up the "big picture" shopping list for him so he knows the overalls of what needs to be ultimately done. Oh, and, short of prazi, which is standard treatment, I didn't suggest any other meds. Would never! :D

:exactly

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Guest Bravepills

took a sample of water for testing, and after they messed about with a bunch of chemicals and test tubes they said that all the levels were good (they didn't give me figures, but showed me the coloured test tubes of water against charts, it looked bob on)

I've been changing at least 50% water daily, maybe thats why my levels apper to be ok.

The bubble eye seems to still be acting normal, one pouch still looks deflated, the other just looks very small! The white 'smudge' has lessened. He is spending more time in the top half of the tank then the bottom, but is swimming and feeding fine.

I put the blackmoor in the smaller tank on his own and have been changing this water daily aswell (roughly 50%).

His colour seems good (jet black) with no blemishes or anything, he still seems a little lethargic, but not as bad as the other day, he always comes to surface to feed, so i guess thats a good thing.

So, overall I think the daily water changes have made some improvement, but I'm guessing I'm not out of the woods yet.

I've tried to get pics, but my 4mp camera just doesn't catch the detail at all.

I'll continue the daily water changes, how long would you suggest I do this?

And also, how long should I keep my blackmoor in the other tank (presuming he makes a full recovery), or should he stay there permanantly until I can get another tank?

Thanks for your help guys

Edited by Bravepills
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"Good" and "bob on" are not good water quality readings. We need numbers. Regardless of how much the people at the store tell you it's okay and try to avoid giving you actual numbers, you need to tell them you need numbers. You cannot possibly manage to keep a healthy tank without knowing actual numbers, especially when you are so overstocked.

50% daily water changes are definitely better, but I have had plenty of times where I have needed to do 90% daily water changes and that was only for one fish, and those changes were based on my test readings. I, personally, would up your changes to 70%, especially when you don't know what your readings are. You'll have to continue to do very large daily water changes as long as your tank is cycling. Once your tank is cycled, you could, normally, reduce your water change to 50%-70% once a week, but as long as you are so overstocked, you will probably need to do twice a week water changes of at least 50%. Again, water changes are all based on test readings. Those readings will tell you when you need to do a water change and how much.

Swimming at the top can mean lack of oxygen, especially if the fish don't appear to be exhibiting any other signs such as floating or inability to control their swimming and go down. You might want to increase your oxygen flow by getting an aerator/bubble bar and lowering your water level so that the waterfall from the filter splashes harder down into the tank water.

I'm glad you qt'd your moor and it's definitely good he's eating. I'm very glad that it sounds like he's improving. That's great! Normally, you would keep a sick fish in qt at least 7-14 days after the last signs of illness are gone and the fish acts and eats very healthily; however, again because of the overstocking, I would agree with you and say that he should stay in this other tank. How big is that tank? This tank also will be going through a cycling, so you also need to do daily testing and large water changes on it too.

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