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Samantha Might Have Mouth Rot


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[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 20 (approx 10 directly from tap)

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.0

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? about 7.6

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master Test Kit

[*]Water temperature? 75?

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 10 Gallons, QT Tank, approx 2 1/2 months, cycled with filter media from my 29 gallon

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s) Penguin Bio Wheel 200

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? Approx every 5 days: 66%, then 100%, 66%, then 100% because of the tank size

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? Miranda-3 inch oranda, Samantha-3 inch oranda (including tails)

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime at water changes

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Once a day, Variety: ProGold, Spirulina Flakes, Krill, Bloodworms, Brine Shrimp, Peas, Oranges, Red Shrimp. Fasting day once a week.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? No

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Nothing strange on Miranda. Samantha has red streaks on her caudal fins but she is a white fish so it's hard to tell but they seem to be getting darker. Samantha also has a white string coming from her mouth, I just noticed it for the first time now. Samantha has a white area in the middle of her caudal fin on one side. It looks similar to tail rot but it is in the middle of her fin, not the end. Samantha's eyes may also be starting to pop again, but it's really hard to tell with her. They always seem a bit popped but last time once they went down it was clear that they were popped.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? None from Miranda. Samantha appears to be opening and closing her mouth more but other than that is behaving perfect

HI GUYS! I do not like to be the one WITH the thread in here! Background on Samantha. She has been fully QTed with 0.3% for two weeks, prazi for 30 days, and dimilin for two weeks (because Miranda had an anchor worm). On July 4th, she started bottom sitting more and her eyes appeared to pop. By July 6th she was bottom sitting always, her eyes popped for sure and possibly pineconing. She was barely moving. She had a full 14 day course of MetroMeds only and recovered well.. After that she got Jumpstart for two weeks. She has been back on a normal varied diet since August 6th. The last few days I started to wonder if her eyes were popping again, so I've been watching her closely.. I was looking at her about 30 minutes ago and I noticed a white string coming from her mouth and her opening and shutting it more. I just removed her from the water and looked inside her mouth. I can't see anything, but again it's hard being that she is a white fish. When I got her she had black ammonia burns which got worse when she was really sick.They are almost cleared up now.

The tank had a 66% water change on Friday evening. I am planning a 50% water change shortly just in case. Since she is behaving normal, I haven't done anything else yet, but I would rather post early than late. I am torn between salts. On one hand I considered adding salt to 0.1% to aid with whatever is on her fin, and possibly the mouth. On the other, if her eyes are starting to pop again, I don't know that I want to do that. At this point the plan is extra water changes. My first thought is to add the salt to 0.1% and see if that helps. If her eyes get worse, I can remove it and add some epsom. but I am not quite sure. Is there anything else I need to be doing that I am missing. Or any medication I should be ordering just in case. (Trust me guys I won't go just go adding it, but I like to be prepared. I would rather spend $10 on a med and have it go to waste than be ordering online and not get it in time). I have many many things on hand already. If it gets to the point where we are considering a med, (which it won't RIGHT?) then I can list what I've got. Thanks for any advice in advance!!! : )

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Oh and I think you guys know this but just in case, the reason they are still in the 10 gallon is because I PPed my tank and am giving it a fresh start. Basically all of my tanks were cycled off of the original 29 gallon that had various sickness. The 10 came off the 29, the other 10 came off the first 10, etc. I didn't even want to be thinking "what if something is still alive" so I used the PP, and am going fishless in the tank that Samantha will be in.. So moving filter media in and trying to cycle it faster wouldn't work because that would be defeating the original purpose. However, I do have an empty 5 gallon. And a divider. So I could separate Samantha from Miranda if needed. Because of nitrates in my tap water the readings stay around 15-20. But everytime I have tested the nitrates in the water before a water change it has never been above 20.

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Hello again Samantha :)

Sue, I wouldn't rush into meds. Early stage flex infections can be caught with low salt and that is where you should start I think, as you said. Give them a day or few days at 0.1%. If you see more strings/redness then we can see what else is suitable. Low salt will be fine with slight pop eye too.

Cool the water a little if you can. Flex thrives best above 73 degrees.

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Thanks Imo!!

Sue, I wouldn't rush into meds.

Ohh no don't worry I was not at ALL planning on rushing into meds... Not even slightly.. Having them on hand in CASE and actually using them are two different things. And you know I would never start any meds before discussing it with you (or Pixie or someone like that) first! : ) I just like to be prepared..

Early stage flex infections can be caught with low salt and that is where you should start I think, as you said. Give them a day or few days at 0.1%. If you see more strings/redness then we can see what else is suitable. Low salt will be fine with slight pop eye too.

Perfect! : )

Cool the water a little if you can. Flex thrives best above 73 degrees

This part gets tricky because of the cats.. The tank is in a back bedroom and the door remains shut for the most part but there have been times when someone opens the door to see if I am in there and it doesn't get shut. And once that door is open my cat Sabre is in there right away and she LOOOOOOOOOVES to watch those fish.

Would having a fan blow over top of the tank even with the lid on have any effect on temp? I just went in and checked and it's 76 now (That's about as high as it gets, it's 2pm on a warm day)

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Awww..Sue...I hope Sammy gets better...you are doing gr8..and Imo is with you..just wanted let you know am here for you and Sammy...take care...am sure she ll get better..she is strong and has a very good mommy to take care of her.. :) ... :heart

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Thanks girls : ) :bighug

Okay Imogen I've got something else to add to what a wrote a few hours ago. (Since your first response)

I've been watching her again off and on. I was planning on adding the salt after the water change, but I keep watching her, and I have not seen a trace of the white string since I wrote about it early this morning.. While it's always best to be cautious, is it possible this could be nothing? I mean, I could fall and scrape my leg and it would appear hurt, but it's nothing big. It would heal itself. If I see one string am I to assume it will only get worse without any treatment, or is it possible that it went away, no more will show up and she can heal herself?

I realize salt at 0.1% is hardly anything. However, I am (KNOCK ON WOOD, NO JINXING THIS TIME) going to be gone Tuesday, Wednesday, and part of Thursday. Every time I've added salt so far I've had cycle bumps. (I forgot about that earlier) If I am going away is it better to:

1) leave things alone.. do nothing other than the 50% water change, and see how she is when I get home, knowing at least that her cycle is safe

or 2) Add the 0.1% salt, and risk bumping the cycle..

Clearly this is NOT an emergency... But of course I want to do what's best for her.. Imogen, What would YOU do??

Then I am getting a tattoo that says WWID like that What Would Jesus Do things but Imogen instead LMAO

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Final update before bed. I did a 66% water change, instead of a 50%. Still no visible signs of the white string reappearing. Other than the water change, nothing added (because of above questions about the fan, and salt) I am signing off soon, but will check back before I leave in the morning and add the salt if needed. Thanks Imo. Sorry if I jumped the gun on this one...especially with you being so busy, and so many other people needing you more. Just saw white strings and I thought back to the Luc thread and thought better be safe than sorry. (I actually hope I DID just jump the gun.. She doesn't need to go through anything else the poor little sweetie).

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I can't help but think that maybe it was nothing as I was wondering how in the heck a fish could get sick with all the qt'ing you've been doing?! Just in case, I'm attaching the link to Koko's article on Columnaris, which symptom is white threads in/on the mouth.

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Lol at the tatoo idea! Very flattering but please don't hun :D

Have you had cycle bumps with salt as low as 0.1%? That's weird. It may have been early stage cycle when the cycle is not very strong. The longer and more established a cycle is the less likely this is. I never have had bumps with even 0.3% (but have had bad fish reactions to salt at that level...)

NEways, the thing about columnaris is it is one of the most difficult b* to treat. There are approx 5 main strains of bacteria that cause it (namely flex, flavo, bacillus,chondrococcus-like strep and cytophaga). They all respond to different antibiotics which is why it can be so hit and miss. Best try to rid it early with salt I think.

Perfect water and strong immunity is definitely also an early stage option.

(Edit: So many spelling typos in this post it read like I was very really drunk!! Dang nails...)

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Thank you Lynda & Imo for your input, I really appreciate it!

Any ideas about the fan guys? Will it cool it a little to blow it over the tank, even with the lid on? Is it worth a try? I really don't want to come home to find that kitty had a fishy lunch.

All of my tanks are relatively new still, and they have all been responding to even low levels of salt with slight bumps. I am hoping that the longer I have them established, this won't be a problem. At one point I tried 0.1% salt in Angels tank for a scrape she had a while back, and BAM. Cycle bump.. NO big deal if I am home, but if I am not here to watch her... Scary.

I will be leaving Tuesday morning, and returning Wednesday night. That's only 36 hours. With her behaving soo well now, and no more signs, and since you say it is an option, I will leave her with the newly changed water. She SHOULD be fine, yes? When I get home, I can take a look at her, and maybe even do a light salting JUST in case.

Lol at the tatoo idea! Very flattering but please don't hun :D

Uh Oh.. how much does it cost to get a tat removed?? LOLOLOL

can't help but think that maybe it was nothing as I was wondering how in the heck a fish could get sick with all the qt'ing you've been doing?!

That's what I'm saying!!! LMAO.. Maybe the goofball had a extra piece of shrimp stuck to the roof of her mouth! I'd love it!!!! Thanks for the link though, I will be sure to read up in case.

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Any ideas about the fan guys? Will it cool it a little to blow it over the tank, even with the lid on? Is it worth a try? I really don't want to come home to find that kitty had a fishy lunch.

I really can't see how cool air could get in when the tank is covered. I have two long glass pieces as my cover, no hood, on my main tank. I needed to use a fan, but wanted to keep the tank covered, not because of cats, but because of splashing, so I removed on of the glass pieces and had a piece of plexiglass cut that was short of the full length by maybe 12 inches. Then I laid the fan over that on its face, like it had fallen over, and taped it down so that the vibration of the fan didn't move it around. It covers most of the opening. If you had a piece of plexiglass cut so that it was the exact size of the fan face, and then taped the fan right over the opening, it would, in essence, cover the top completely so kitty paws couldn't get in. I would think.

That's what I'm saying!!! LMAO.. Maybe the goofball had a extra piece of shrimp stuck to the roof of her mouth! I'd love it!!!! Thanks for the link though, I will be sure to read up in case.

I've seen strings on my fish that I panicked about for a few seconds only to realize that it was just a hair or piece of lint that got covered in bubbles and whatever and, for a second, looked like something scary. So, it could've been just that.

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I've seen strings on my fish that I panicked about for a few seconds only to realize that it was just a hair or piece of lint that got covered in bubbles and whatever and, for a second, looked like something scary. So, it could've been just that.

CRAP!!!! I was just thinking "yeah hopefully that's it". I looked at Sam and while it's not as long like it was before, I saw a white stringy thing coming from her mouth. (insert cursing here). Okay, she's not clamped or behaving weird at all.. That's good. I am going to go ahead and add salt to 0.1% before I go.. Even if the cycle stalled, it couldn't be THAT bad. It's only a little while, and they are not being fed while I am gone. Crap Crap Crap. Am I to assume the poor thing was just weakened from her past sickness, and it left her open to whatever bacteria caused this? Miranda still looks great. The only strange thing about her, is she used to be the same size as Sam... Sam got sick, and Miranda got way bigger. But after the metromeds, Sam bounced back and not only equaled Miranda in size, but surpassed her by alot. She appears healthy though, just a lot smaller.

NEways, the thing about columnaris is it is one of the most difficult b* to treat. There are approx 5 main strains of bacteria that cause it (namely flex, flavo, bacillus,chondrococcus-like strep and cytophaga). They all respond to different antibiotics which is why it can be so hit and miss. Best try to rid it early with salt I think

So this is going to make me sound stupid, but I really want to learn. How can you tell which one it is? If you had all the right equipment you know. Would a microscope do the trick? What is needed in order to determine WHICH bacteria is causing it? Or it there just no way.

Thank you Lynda for the great ideas.. And actually, you may have indirectly helped me. Something you said made me think and realize that a while back I found this 10 gallon tank reptile cover at w mart.. It was a couple bucks and I didn't know WHY I would ever want it. I think my thoughts were (this is before I got the 2nd 10 gallon QT) if I ever needed a 10 gallon in an emergency, I could buy one for about 10 bucks without the lid/lights and save some money.

Anyway, it's this little plastic cover that has plenty of small holes so there would be plenty of air passing through, but it actually remains fully covered. I'll just have to cut away a space for the filter.. Then I can rig up a fan, and it should work! : )

Good thing I got up a little early... GRRRRRRRR

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Okay Salt is in to 0.1%

I cut the lid I was talking about. (Man that thing was impossible to cut. I ended up with a saw and that barely did the trick. Cheap little piece of plastic my .... nevermind.

I have a fan blowing overtop of the tank now. It's kinda pointed down.. Right before I hooked it up, it said 76. It looks like it may be down to 75.

I hope she is okay while I am gone... (You know how close I am to saying screw it!!). I can call and have Tanya check on her for me though.

EWWW CREEPY! I just went to check the weather forecast online one last time and a big pop up came accross the screen that said "FLEX"!!! Coincidence, I think not!!! Eww ewww ewww!! Now I'm really scared to go. You know me with signs!!

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I found this page. Is it any good?

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/d...columnaris.html

I know I can't do anything for her right now, but I don't want to leave cause all I'll be doing is thinking "is she okay is she okay".

As I said before I PROMISE I won't try any meds without giving the 0.1% salt a try first, and without your suggestion Imo.. I mean it, I really trust you, so trust me that I won't just go throwing meds around, okay? (Please I can't even add 0.1% salt without getting confirmation from you LOL) The other day Vickie was saying how she doesn't know what we would do without you.. She is sooo right.

The good news is, I keep seeing things say Maracyn & Maracyn II combo. I have BOTH of those. I also keep seeing OxyTetracycline. Is that different that just TetraCycline or Tetracycline Hdrochloride. I have Maracyn TC on hand as well, is say it contains the Tetracycline Hydrochloride. It appears that these are good things to have on hand, yes? They have dates on the label. They all are in 2009. I also have Anti Bac Bath from GFC. So it looks like I am prepared for the worst. And of course, I will order ANYTHING you tell me to, and overnight it if I have to!! (Man I love these fish).

The fan has cooled the water to 73!!!! In less than an hour!!! WOOOOOOOO! This is great! That makes me feel good.

I'm going to try to go to the beach..If I stay home I will just worry, and we need to give her a few days of the salt anyway WITHOUT me constantly bugging her. SO there's not much else I can do here. I am two hours late, but I think I will try to go and make the best of it.

You've got to admit the FLEX thing popping up was creepy! I just told Shane and his eyes bugged out, and then I showed him because it was still up and he said "I don't envy you at all right now". K here's my logic. Yes it was a sign.. Maybe it was a sign saying "Sue, you did the right thing. This is caused by Flex, and you took the extra precautions and adding the salt and hooked up the fan". Maybe it was a confirmation, not a warning.. LOL

K sorry for this long thread getting longer. You guys know how I worry.. I just love em all sooo much ya know?

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Okay last thing then I promise I am OUT the door.. LOL

The fan is working wonders.. Almost TOO good.. It's 70 now! That's 6 degrees in about 3 hours.. Is that TOO much?? What is a good temperature to strive for? The fan was on high. I just turned it to medium. I can have Tanya turn it up back up later if it needs to be. Let me know what you think a good temp would be. (I won't be able to check but I'm gonna leave this page up so Tanya can refresh and see the answers) Thanks. I am HEADED OUT THE DOOR NOW I promise, but if something else stops me I am never trying to go to the beach again! LOL BYE!

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68-70 is a good temp for gf water. Glad you figured out something that works. I think I'll pass this on to Roni. She was having a problem with temps.

I treated my sarassa comet when he got columnaris with Maracyn 2. Now, that was back when I was new and salt wasn't even a consideration; you just went right to the meds thinking that was the only way, but it worked like a charm. Of course now, I always encourage the salt first, and then sometimes you just have to go right to the meds. I was helping Chester's Mommy with some tail rot and suggested the salt, but it made her fish worse. It was floating belly up. I think it is salt intolerant. So, she took it upon herself to go forward with the Maracyn 2 and it was like a miracle. That fish perked up overnight and it's continued to get better and better. So, who knows when you should go with the meds?

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Oh, btw... is it possible the anchor worm came back?

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Hotel has a computer in the lobby! I get 10 more minutes : )

Back home Tanya said the fish is behaving well, but the fan cooled the water too much.. I told her to tell me if it got much lower than 70, but she worked for about 4 hours last night. She called me when she got home and the water was 64! Geez! So I told her to put it on low. THEN it jumped back to 69 in about an hour or two.. I wish I was there because I hate all this jumping around of temperature. I told her to try just leaving it on low, but I told her the main thing is to try to keep it constant around 68-70...Overall it cooled the water about 10 degrees in 12 hours so it wasn't too drastic until it went from 64-69.. UGH. More updates later! Lynda thanks for all your help. I'll write more when I get home tonight : )

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Hi this is Tanya. After Sue posted this morning I found another white string on Samantha. Last night it was not there. Sue says the first one she saw was coming from the top then went away. The second one was coming from the bottom then went away. Now there is another one coming from the bottom. When she gets home tonight it will have been 2 days at 0.1% salt and its not going away yet. She wants to know if she needs to try medicines yet or still wait? She has all the mardel products (maracyn, maracyn 2, maracyn TC, Tri-Sulfa, etc.) and all the api products (general cure, fungus cure, furan 2, etc.). Also metro-meds, medi-gold, anti-bac bath, and some more stuff even. She found a really good store in the town she is in. They have a lot of stuff. If she needs something she can go back if its in the next 2-3 hours. They have a $30 bottle of metro powder and a $30 bottle of TC powder and she has never seen that anywhere before! Otherwise she can order online or try a store near here tomorrow (they just dont have as big a selection). Also, if Samantha does need meds, should she remove her to a seperate tank then Miranda, or move Miranda in a seperate tank, or leave them together and treat them both. Do you think Miranda will catch it? The temperature is 66 now. Last night it went down to 64 with the fan on medium, so I turned it to low and it went back to 69. It was still at 69 this morning when she wrote, butnow even though its still on low it went back to 66. Its being weird. Sue is worried about the fluctuating temperature. I think thats all for now. She just wanted to write before she got home so there might be time to hear back from someone. Thanks everyone!

Oh yeah i just fed her and she ate normal.

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Hi this is Tanya. After Sue posted this morning I found another white string on Samantha. Last night it was not there. Sue says the first one she saw was coming from the top then went away. The second one was coming from the bottom then went away. Now there is another one coming from the bottom. When she gets home tonight it will have been 2 days at 0.1% salt and its not going away yet. She wants to know if she needs to try medicines yet or still wait? She has all the mardel products (maracyn, maracyn 2, maracyn TC, Tri-Sulfa, etc.) and all the api products (general cure, fungus cure, furan 2, etc.). Also metro-meds, medi-gold, anti-bac bath, and some more stuff even. She found a really good store in the town she is in. They have a lot of stuff. If she needs something she can go back if its in the next 2-3 hours. They have a $30 bottle of metro powder and a $30 bottle of TC powder and she has never seen that anywhere before! Otherwise she can order online or try a store near here tomorrow (they just dont have as big a selection). Also, if Samantha does need meds, should she remove her to a seperate tank then Miranda, or move Miranda in a seperate tank, or leave them together and treat them both. Do you think Miranda will catch it? The temperature is 66 now. Last night it went down to 64 with the fan on medium, so I turned it to low and it went back to 69. It was still at 69 this morning when she wrote, butnow even though its still on low it went back to 66. Its being weird. Sue is worried about the fluctuating temperature. I think thats all for now. She just wanted to write before she got home so there might be time to hear back from someone. Thanks everyone!

Oh yeah i just fed her and she ate normal.

ohhh..am soo sorry I didn't see this post Tanya and Sue...hows Samantha now??..I really hope there are no strings coming out again...how does she look..I really am of no help here..but just here to say I hope everything gets better...hope everything is fine now..

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Quick update for tonight..

Tank temp is around 73 right now, but that's because I had the light on to feed them. Overall the temp has been pretty good about staying around 70 now... At this point I am just leaving the fan on low consistently.. Any temp fluctuations are based on the room getting hotter, colder through out the day or because of lights on and off. Basically normal fluctuations but with the fan on the highest it is getting is 73, where before it could get around 78..

No meds added yet. Salt is at 0.1% still.. Normal behavior for both fish, normal eating for both fish. Since Imo hasn't been around I've just been trying to do what I think she would tell me to do, and I think based on their behavior she would tell me to stick to the salt a little longer.. I am afraid to say anything about the white strings.. Everytime I say I think they are gone one shows back up, so I am not going to say anything right now... : ) (Do you guys get what I am trying to say??? Shhh)

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Quick update for tonight..

Tank temp is around 73 right now, but that's because I had the light on to feed them. Overall the temp has been pretty good about staying around 70 now... At this point I am just leaving the fan on low consistently.. Any temp fluctuations are based on the room getting hotter, colder through out the day or because of lights on and off. Basically normal fluctuations but with the fan on the highest it is getting is 73, where before it could get around 78..

No meds added yet. Salt is at 0.1% still.. Normal behavior for both fish, normal eating for both fish. Since Imo hasn't been around I've just been trying to do what I think she would tell me to do, and I think based on their behavior she would tell me to stick to the salt a little longer.. I am afraid to say anything about the white strings.. Everytime I say I think they are gone one shows back up, so I am not going to say anything right now... : ) (Do you guys get what I am trying to say??? Shhh)

So, then shut up already about the white strings! lol! Yeah, I'm sure she'd say stick with the salt too. At least for a while longer. It's only been a few days and, if it's the "C" word, that takes a long time to get rid of, so it isn't going to go as fast as you're used to with other problems.

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Thanks girls! : )

I've been trying to read up and I keep seeing Oxytetracycline as a treatment.. That's one of the ingredients in MetroMeds.. Koko recently recommended (I think it was to you JC) to leave a fish on the MetroMeds for a month. Samantha only got them for 2 weeks. Right now, since there are no changes for the worst, I am going to keep sticking to the salt only, esp since I really like to get the go ahead from Imo before doing anything. Without her behaving sick, I see no reason to add meds to the water, or feed her medicated food. I think however, if she were to take a turn for the worse, and I couldn't get a hold of Imogen, my first step would be a few more weeks of the Metromeds.. We know she handles them well, and at least then she wouldn't be getting two kinds of meds in quick succession. I am hoping it's not needed though : ) Thanks for checking in on me! : )

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