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Ich And Salt


pditty

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Hi all, one of my Ryukins has had a weird white thing on his dorsal fin for a few months. Doesn't seem to get better or worse.

Anyway, now I'm noticing the other Ryu looks like she's starting to get ich on her dorsal fin. They both sit at the top to a fair degree. Chemistry and airation look good otherwise. Have a 205 fluval canister on there. 3 goldfish total.

Anyway, I'm bringing the salt up to 0.3% slowly. Looks to be 4 CUPS of aquarium salt in my 65 gallon. Once it gets there, how long does it need to stay there before I can stop replacing the salt during weekly water exchanges? BTW, I also have copersafe and clout on hand, and can easily get whatever else.

Here's the dorsal fin bump by the way (not the ich dots).

ryu.jpg

ryu2.jpg

Edited by pditty
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Guest Patches

hmmm I'm prettu sure that's not ich. Ich looks like little grains of salt speckled on the fish. This looks like some other bacteria or fungus.

I'm not a mod so I won't go any further :)

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Hi pditty,

I agree with Patches..it does not look like Ich to me...However, to make it easy for the mods to help you with the correct diagnosis and help please fill all the details in the box above..this helps understand water parameters and determine problems better..

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level?

[*]Nitrite Level?

[*]Nitrate level?

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

[*]Water temperature?

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)?

[*]How often do you change the water and how much?

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size?

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners?

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often?

[*]Any new fish added to the tank?

[*]Any medications added to the tank?

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

I would really encourage you to get drop tets and test all the water parameters...very soon someone will address your problem..and I would truly truly hold up on any medications right now..until a mod can help you with the issue...hope your ryukin feels better soon.. :)

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Thanks for getting back to me. I guess I should have been more clear, or simply omitted the photos entirely.

I'm not claiming that the stuff on the fin in the photo is ich, only that he has had this problem for some time, and a different fish appears to be in the early stages of ich on the dosal fin. They're faint white spots sort of spread out in a grid and are easy to see when the fin is errect and you are viewing it from the side.

Anyway, I ran some calculations of what 0.3% salt is, and it seems to me like 3 TEAspoons of salt per gallon (65 gallon tank) works out to 4 cups or 195 teaspoons of aquarium salt. I've slowly raised the tank to 1/3 of this level and am somewhat uncomfortable with how much salt this is. I've also seen a lot of stuff on the internet about how this is a suspect cure etc.

What I'm thinking is that the thing in the photo is a bacterium or possibly a fungus. I was talking with some of the koivet people about that before the site went down. I should microscope it to see what it looks like.

Anyway, I have some Jungle Ick Clear which I think is Acriflavine. In theory, this treats the ich, but would also treat columnaris and fungus as well (not sure what the dose is and if it would be enough though).

It also sounds like coppersafe would knock out both ich and bacteria, and salt helps both as well.

Maybe we could kill 2 birds (and not 2 fish) with one stone here. The third fish in the tank has none of these symptons, but does have a vaguely ragged edge to the tail. Wondering if these are all related to some type of weird bacterial thing stressing them out.

To answer your quetions:

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level - zero

[*]Nitrite Level - zero

[*]Nitrate level - gotta check, usually quite low.

[*]Ph Level, Tank - measures as 7, could possibly be a bit lower given the titration kit limits

[*]Ph Level, Tap - 7

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? - API droppers

[*]Water temperature? - 72-73F

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? - 65 gallon, 6 months, moved from a 29.

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? - Fluval 205 canister

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? - 15-20 gallons per 6-7 days

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? - 3 goldfish 3 to 5 inches long

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Usually prime. Sometimes stress coat if I'm out.

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? 2 times per day. Goldfish pellets, frozen brine shrimp, frozen tube worms, dried shrimp

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? - no

[*]Any medications added to the tank? - salt... so far

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? - 2 ryukins tend to hang out at the top, sometimes in filter output. one has the dosal fin bump, the other has the ich looking grains on the dorsal fin just starting. 3rd fish has some tail fraying, but not bad and doesn't seem to be progressing.

Overall their behavior has been basically normal.

Edited by pditty
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Hey...gr88 tht you have al the questions answered now..

I would really hold up on the meds...no medications until any of the mods direct you to...Also for the salt you need to start with 0.1% and gradually increase upto 0.3% over a period of 24 hours...umm..meanwhile if you get a good picture of the problem the ryukin has...tht would be gr888 too...if the spots do look like salt grains sprinkled on the fish..then it could be ich..but if it a patch then fungal/bacterial..tht needs to be diagnosed..I really have no idea..a moderatr should be able to help..and am sure someone will come in and answer this soon...you could start with 0.1% salt until then..tht would not harm the fish...which means 1 teaspoon per gallon salt needs to be added..so in all 55 teaspoons for your tank...

Make sure the salt is an aquarium salt with no caking agents or YPS..you could read more on this here..http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=60876

look for the contents and follow the instructions..bring the salt only to 0.1% and the temperature gradually upto 76-78 over a period of 12 hours, so tht its not a sudden change..and before adding salt you could also do a 50% water change...but thts it..nothing more to be added..unless a mod answers or direts you further for the treatment...I am sugesting this cos 0.1% salt does not harm the fish and if tht is what the mods ask you to do later the first step of the process has been achieved..I hope your goldies to get better and someone answers a question too.. :) ..keep us posted...

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I did some reading last night on the Jungle (Tank Buddies) "Ick Clear" [sic] and it looked as though it was pretty good for a number of baterial and fungal conditions as well as the ich.

Since there are 3 potential issues going on, and that could solve all of them in one fell swoop, I removed the carbon from the canister and dosed them with Ick Clear with it last night. The tank is probably at or just above 0.1% and holding (salt). Didn't seem to bother them at all and ammonia still reads zero.

1) The bacterial / fungal colony on the Ryukin's hump as shown in the photo above. Pretty sure that came from an injury. Never got better or worse. Been there a long time at this point. Tried to peroxide it once, which he tolerated, but it didn't help much.

2) Minor fraying of the pearlscale's fin (I'm not convinced this is anything at all as it has also been this way a long time with hasn't gotten better or worse)

3) The salt looking white spots on the other Ryu's fin. I'll take a look again at these tonight and see how they look. Will try to get a photo.

BTW, the tank really is 65 (not 55). It's a pretty cool tank. I didn't want a 55 because they're kind of narrow and the goldfish turn badly and tend to like more surface area on the floor of the tank.

Edited by pditty
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Hello Pditty -- You're right -- 195 teaspoons of salt is over 4 cups. This seems like a lot but really is very safe. I have a 75 gallon tank and actually find that measuring salt with a postal scale is the much easier way to go. Depending on whether you are using fine salt or coarse salt the volume measurements can vary, so measuring by weight is really best and most accurate. 0.1% salt is 1 gram of salt per liter of water. Your 65 gallon tank is 246 liters, so 0.1% salt would be 8.67 ounces. 0.3% salt would be 26 ounces or over 1.5 pounds. A lot of salt, yes, but very safe for your fish.

I am not sure where you are reading that salt is a "suspect" treatment for ich and other goldfish maladies. It certainly does not cure everything, but it is a very safe place to start. Because your fishes' condition seemed not to be declining rapidly, I would have recommended that you give the 0.3% salt a go before you jumped into medicating with other things.

The next thing that you need to attend to is the source of the fuzzy spot on your ryukins' fins. How often do you do a 100% water change on your tank and how often do you clean your filter media? Over time, harmful bacteria and fungi accumulate in the water and on the media and can start causing problems like these (you are probably right that the initial cause was an injury to the fin, but then fungi/bacteria took advantage of the opportunity to start growing on your fish). You should be doing a 100% water change every 6 weeks or so and should swish your filter media clean of gunk (using discarded aquarium water) at each water change.

The other thing that needs attending to is the fact that your tank is significantly under-filtered. It is my understanding that the Fluval 205 is intended for tanks up to 40 gallons and turns over 110 gph. Generally we (and other goldfish experts) advise that you have filter(s) that turn over your tank volume at least ten times per hour when keeping goldfish. In your case this would be 650 gph. Because you have a canister filter that holds significantly larger volume of filter media and because you only have three fish, you can get away with somewhat less filtration, but there is a big discrepancy between 110 gph and 650 gph. Would it be possible for you to add another canister filter or a large HOB filter?

Now that you've added the Ick Clear then you'll just need to keep an eye on things and let us know how it goes. Please let us know if there is anything else we can do to help. :)

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Thanks for double checking my numbers.

The fish had been in a 29 gallon that had both the Fluval 205 as well as an emporer biowheel (2 wheels, 4 "C" filters) on it. That seemed like it was generating a LOT of turbulance.

Anyway, I moved them to the 65 gallon and had some issues in my tropical tank that required the setup of a THIRD fish tank... so I moved the biowheel to the tropical tank and the tropical tank filter to the new (third) tank.

Anyway, I never do a 100% water change, that seems like a rough way to go on the fish. They get kinda freaked out when I vac the tank etc.

I wash out the filter pad and wash or replace the carbon ever 2 weeks. Change about 20 gallons of water per week.

Been thinking about a UV sterilizer. If I could find that and or another canister on craigs list I may do it. Just got married so $$$ is short.

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Anyway, I never do a 100% water change, that seems like a rough way to go on the fish. They get kinda freaked out when I vac the tank etc.

You need to do periodic 100% water changes. You can gently move the fish to another container for an hour and it is no big deal. You are going to continue to have problems like this if you don't either do periodic 100% water changes or get a powerful UV sterilizer (the big one on Goldfish Connection is good one).

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I've seen like, 9, 13, 20, 35 watt sterilizers. Was thinking something in the 20 range.

How often do you think on the 100% changes?

Problem I have now is that tap water is way hotter than the tank, and pre-cooling 65 gallons ain't easy.

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Here's a couple of updated pics:

This shows both Ryu's dorsal bump (right) and Chowder's fin fraying (left).

fish10.jpg

Here's the white dots on Myu's dorsal fin. Definitely something new (both my wife and I noticed it at the same time) but not particularly well defined.

fish11.jpg

Different lighting:

fish12.jpg

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I've seen like, 9, 13, 20, 35 watt sterilizers. Was thinking something in the 20 range.

How often do you think on the 100% changes?

Problem I have now is that tap water is way hotter than the tank, and pre-cooling 65 gallons ain't easy.

Here is a discussion of the application of various types of UV sterilizers. It is my understanding that UV units with less than 25 watts are useful for eliminating green water only. They do not have as much value for killing bacteria, fungi, and parasites in the water.

https://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...40&catId=23

https://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/det...29&catId=23

As I stated above, I think that every 6 weeks would be a reasonable interval for 100% water changes, more often as long as your tank is under-filtered.

I have the same problem with high tap water temperature. Around here it is about 94 degrees in the summer. I have solved my problem by purchasing a large trash can, which I keep in an unused shower. I fill it with water approx 24 hours prior to my planned water change so it can cool down to room temp. If necessary, I add ice to it. After I drain the tank, I use a submersible pump in the trash can attached to a vinyl hose to transfer the water from the trash can to the tank.

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What do you think about just buying a second 205 filter vs just buying a 25 watt sterilizer?

That is sort of comparing apples and oranges -- they serve different purposes. I definitely think that you need to make sure that your basic filtration bases are covered before moving on to supplemental equipment like UV sterilizers. Even two 205's is technically not enough, although you could probably get by by skipping the chemical filtration (carbon) and running mechanical and biological filtration only. Most goldfish people only use carbon when there is a specific need (like stripping medication out of the water) and it takes up valuable space in your filter. I have two HOB filters and a canister filter on my 75, and the canister is completely full of nothing but biological media.

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Hmm. I could take a lot of the carbon out and put a ton of ceramic chips in there. However, as I noted, the ammonia is just dandy.

Would additional biological filtration also take down whatever bacteria / fungus etc is present? Seems like you'd need the UV for that part.

I know this woman that has this 10 gallon tank with a basic filter and 2 monster common goldfish she's had for years (got them on a table at a wedding). I've got 3 juvenile goldfish in 65 gallons and can't keep stuff 100% on track. Ugh...

Anyway, I gotta figure it out but that UV filter you recommended is $250, and a second large canister is $250 and I gotta register 2 cars this month for about that.

I'm going to keep an eye on craigs list and eBay, and probably change 20 gallons a day for a while and see how that goes.

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Adding extra biomedia will not directly cut down on bacteria and fungi. But I still suggest removing carbon and adding additional filtration for a couple of reasons.

First, carbon removes a number of beneficial trace elements from your water. Long term this can have an adverse impact on your fish's health and immune competence, thereby making them more susceptible to opportunistic pathogens. In addition, in my experience carbon bags and cartridges are more likely to get slimey and mucky with mold and other nasties compared to ceramic rings.

Second, additional filtration (in the form of another canister filter or a HOB filter) will create more water movement and better oxygenation of the water. Pathogenic organisms thrive in stagnant water. On the other hand, water that is moving around the tank and splashing as it returns from a filter is less hospitable to nasties. Unless you are keeping tosakins or fancy goldfish with extremely long fins or tails you generally don't need to be concerned about too much current being generated by your filters. As long as you have a few quiet areas for your fish to rest they will generally enjoy the filter current. Remember that you can "stack" a canister filter output underneath the output of a HOB filter.

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Guest Patches

Extra filtration is not going to replace your 100% water changes/filter media swishing to get rid of baddies :aint:

oooh boy I'd love a UV sterilizer!

Those are odd looking spots on your fish's dorsal. they don't look ich to me tho. I could be wrong...

Edited by Patches
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Extra filtration is not going to replace your 100% water changes/filter media swishing to get rid of baddies :aint:

oooh boy I'd love a UV sterilizer!

Those are odd looking spots on your fish's dorsal. they don't look ich to me tho. I could be wrong...

Aren't they odd?

I know it won't replace it. Didn't claim it would. Just trying to get the level up to where it needs to be.

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