Jump to content

Rid-ich And Fantail Floating At The Bottom. Help!


Guest Katherine

Recommended Posts

Guest Katherine

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0ppm.

[*]Nitrite Level? 0ppm.

[*]Nitrate level? 5ppm.

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Test Strips

[*]Water temperature? around 75 farenheit

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 18gallon rubbermaid hospital tanks, 2

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? On one there is a 150 biowheel and the other is a topfin 60 HOB (350gph)

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? twice a day, 50%-30% each change

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 small goldies in each 18gallon

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Stress Coat

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Bloodworms +peas

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? Nope.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? Rid ich (about 8milligrams each dose)

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? not on the fish I'm worried about.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? appeared to be 'floating' at the bottom, not even sitting but floating like he was dead :[

So my fantail goldfish (and my favorite) is in an 18gallon rubbermaid that is slightly underfiltered with another small lionhead. my tank had an ich outbreak, and I put these two together as they were showing no physical signs of being infected, while the other two fish did (and are in a seperate rubbermaid with LOTS of filtration, 350gph which is twice what is reccommended). However, I was treating both rubbermaids with rid-ich to be safe, with the one that my fantail is in getting a new dose every 24 hours and the one with physical signs getting a new dose every 12 hours. However, the fish I least expeced to have complications seemed to be dead, and kind of floating around in the bottom of the rubbermaid. I quickly freaked out, but I saw that he was breathing, so I quickly did a 50% water change. The fish is in much better shape now, but seems a bit lethargic. I fed peas as the last meal as to make sure that the problem wasn't with digestion.

My question is, do you think the meds caused this? Should I continue medicating or should I stop? These two fish in particular have shown no signs of an ich infection, and I've only been administering the treatment for 3 days. Previous to this he has shown no signs of having a bed reaction with the meds. Yes, I have already tried treating the ich with salt, and yes I'm almost positive that it is a salt-resistant case of it. I really need help. I don't want to overwhelm my fish with meds but I also don't want him to get ich.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi Katherine!!!! : )

First, thanks for filling out all of the information.. A lot of people don't, and it helps soo much! :)

Second, I was in a very similar experience recently.. Where I lost my fish due to Ich medications.. I can explain all of this in greater detail. But the first thing I would like you to do is to get the meds OUT of the water, by doing VERY LARGE water changes. (100% change if you can)... Make sure the water is matched for temperature, and make sure you use a dechlorinator..

I'll post this, then go back and edit and add all of the details.

Okay back..Actually before details, some questions. You said you've tried to treat the Ich with salt already yes? Just to be sure, how much salt did you add, and how long did you leave it in for?

Have you been testing your water IN the rubbermaids, or just in the tank?

The filters you have on the rubbermaids, are they brand new? Is the filter media in them cycled at all? If they are brand new you could be seeing ammonia climbing up in the rubbermaids, because there is no cycle. Ammonia mixed with meds is toxic to the fish, so that COULD be what is happening.. Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to get the full picture, that way we can get you headed in the right direction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

Hii, I'm back as well. Just did a water change of about 80%, so the meds in the water -should- be almost completely gone, since this water change is on top of the 75% water change i did last night without readding meds.

The filter in the rubbermaid with the fantail actually does happen to be new, but I have filter media from my well estabished cycled main tank in both filters. The main tank is currently not in use and is about the be emptied, scrubbed, and resealed with silicone. I am taking water params on both rubbermaids, which both have been keeping basically at the same params.

It gets kind of complicated here. I'll try to explain the situation.

Originally, the ich was brought in by a telescope eye that I had bought. I quarentined him before keeping him with the other fish. When I treated with salt, I gradually went from .0% to .3% over the course of a few days, and left it at .3% for about a week. This fish had showed no visible signs of having ich for 3 days, looked happy and healthy, so I put him in the main tank and then, unfortunately, had to go out of town. When I came back, the telescope who originally had ich was dead, had been eaten, and my ryukin and black more had little white spots on them. The main tank had been at .3% salt for the five days I was gone just to make sure he wouldn't transfer ich if he had any left. I'm pretty sure it's salt resistant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
Hii, I'm back as well. Just did a water change of about 80%, so the meds in the water -should- be almost completely gone, since this water change is on top of the 75% water change i did last night without readding meds.

Okay great... Hopefully that will help. For whatever reason, the meds seems to be stressing the fish, so I think a break with clean water is a good thing.

The filter in the rubbermaid with the fantail actually does happen to be new, but I have filter media from my well estabished cycled main tank in both filters. The main tank is currently not in use and is about the be emptied, scrubbed, and resealed with silicone. I am taking water params on both rubbermaids, which both have been keeping basically at the same params.

Again, great that you added filter media in the filters and are doing tests on both of the rubbermaids. I just wanted to check this stuff to make sure there wasn't something obvious.. like an ammonia spike mixed with meds.

Originally, the ich was brought in by a telescope eye that I had bought. I quarentined him before keeping him with the other fish. When I treated with salt, I gradually went from .0% to .3% over the course of a few days, and left it at .3% for about a week. This fish had showed no visible signs of having ich for 3 days, looked happy and healthy, so I put him in the main tank and then, unfortunately, had to go out of town. When I came back, the telescope who originally had ich was dead, had been eaten, and my ryukin and black more had little white spots on them. The main tank had been at .3% salt for the five days I was gone just to make sure he wouldn't transfer ich if he had any left. I'm pretty sure it's salt resistant.

I think personally I would try the salt again.. The salt is supposed to be left at 0.3% for 6 days after the last Cysts falls off... Just because the fish appeared clear for 3 days, he may not have been in the clear.. Moving him to the tank too could have stressed out the other fish, and then they got it.. You also said you were gone for 5 days, and even though you had the salt at 0.3%, I assume there was no one changing the water??? Vacuuming the tank, and doing water changes is very important in removing the Ich...

How big is your main tank? Is the cycle on that still safe? You said you were going to scrub it down, but if that can wait, and all of the fish can go in there, and there are no meds in the water, that might be the best place for them.. If you could, check the water params in there.. If the fish had Ich in that tank, you will need to treat the tank anyway... Rather than doing water changes on TWO rubbermaids, while the large tank is left empty, I think it might be less work, and maybe less stressful to be back in the large tank which is fully cycled. I would do a full water change on it first.. This is all assuming there are no meds in there, and the cycle is still safe, and the tank is large enough. (what size is it).

Other than that, there is nothing obvious here that I am seeing, so a moderator or more experienced member will have to help you out from here. (Of course feel free to ask any questions and IF I know the answer, I will still help out!!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

The main tank is 55 gallons, and all of the media from it is in the rubbermaid filters because the filter that was on it is on one of the rubbermaids. I would have just kept all of the fish in the 55gallon but there are quite a few complications in doing so;

1. There is sand in the main tank that could harbor the ich and keep it from going away, but I'm going to remoxe that.

2. The cost issue; I can't afford enough meds/salt to retreat the main tank everyday. with 2 18gals, I use about half the meds/salt I would in the 55.

3. The biggest issue; the main tank sprung a leak a while back and it is just recently that I was able to afford a new filter and the rubbermaids to keep the fish in while i repair it. Over time, the leak has become very large and I was losing up to 2 inches of water a day because of it.

But the cost issue is really bad because I am an unemployed 16 year old and I had to borrow extensive amounts of money from my mom and my boyfriend to get the new equipment for all of this.

I think I might opt for salt again though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Okay you've got GOOD reasons not to use the main tank!!!! Are you SURE you are 16????? You seem MUCH older!!!

Anyway, given all that, with the sand, the leak, all of it.. I would say you are doing the right thing with the two rubbermaids.. Just keep up the water changes on both. Honestly it sounds like you are doing everything right... Try the salt again, and let's see if a mod has anything else to offer (I'm sure they will).. Great job : )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

Haha thank you. I've done so much research on goldies ever since my boyfriend bought me the fantail for valentines day, which was months ago. Although I lack in experience I think I have a pretty good amount of knowledge :]]]

Later today I'm going to pick up more aquarium salt and change the water maybe 2 or three more times and start on that. Do you think It'd be okay to keep up the ich meds on the other rubbermaid? the two other goldies are doing fine and their spots are gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
Haha thank you. I've done so much research on goldies ever since my boyfriend bought me the fantail for valentines day, which was months ago. Although I lack in experience I think I have a pretty good amount of knowledge :]]]

Yeah you are doing really really well : )

Later today I'm going to pick up more aquarium salt and change the water maybe 2 or three more times and start on that. Do you think It'd be okay to keep up the ich meds on the other rubbermaid? the two other goldies are doing fine and their spots are gone.

Not sure about this one.. Best wait for a moderator.. Personally I am scared of those Ich meds after my experience, but I know other people have used them.. If it were me, I'd do salt. If they show ANY signs of stress though, I would remove them immediately for sure...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi Katherine! :)

The first thing I'd like to point out is that its not necessary to just use aquarium salt. Its fairly expensive and rock salt, kosher salt, and canning salt are the same thing in a less expensive form. You can buy a 2 pound box of kosher salt for around $1 in the spices section of the grocery. Just be sure that there are no anti-caking ingredients, and that the ONLY ingredient is salt. Also I'm sure you know to dissolve the salt before you add it to the water.

Now on to the meds. Rid-Ich contains malachite green and is an extremely harsh medication. The salt WILL work, I promise you. There is no such thing as ich that is salt resistant. Its disheartening at first because your fish will look worse before they look better, but that is a sign that it is working. Here is another important thing when you are treating for ich. You should have a heater to raise the water temps to 80F. The warm water speeds up the ich life cycle so you can get rid of it faster. As Sue said, large water changes and thorough vacuuming of your gravel, if you have any in the Rubbermaid is essential to remove the ich larvae. I'm very glad to hear that you're getting rid of the sand. Its really not the best substrate for goldies.

Stick with the salt, hon. You may find it helpful to keep a written log so you know how much salt to add with water changes to keep it to .3%. If you stick with the salt program, I know it will cure the ich.

I'm also shocked that you are just 16! You are very well-spoken and seem to know how to take care of your fish. We have a lot of members here who are your age who also know a lot about fish-keeping.

Another thing...how big are the Rubbermaids?

Edited by vickielm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

Update:

I've continued treating the other, more severe fishes with rid-ich. They are showing no signs of sickness now, no spots, no bottom sitting or clamping. My only worry is that my calico ryukin is changing colours. She went from mostly very pale orange with black spots and a silver belly to almost all silver, but the black spots and some orange are still there. Her gill covers are silver. Is this related at all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Ok...I did read the entire thread...but I am confused...why are you treating the other fish with rid-ich...the salt will work on them too...the meds are really really very harsh on them..the meds stress them out completely...however severe the ich is...the salt works on it...I have done this jsut 2 weeks back..trust me you dont need meds..I had a bottle of meds..and I proudly returned it without even opening the packing..trust the salt-heat method..provide them good shade...and you are really good..you know the salting process...I would really stick with the salt...and to start the salt..I would really do a 80-90% water change..gradually increase the temperature upto 80 F over a period of 12-18 hours..and start with 0.1% salt (1 teaspoon per gallon) and then every 12 hours vacuuming and increasing the salt upto 0.3%...and bam tht will kill the ichy bugs...trust me...and to provide shade to ur babies..wrap a towel or something around the tank..and keep the lights dim and even quiet...I would never use meds for ich... :) ..hope your fish feel better..

I followed the salt method like Sue, Imo, Lynda, Vickie, everyone here suggested..and has done wonders...trust me these guys are awesome..follow their advice... :)

Edited by SunshineGurl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hiya Katherine : ) How are you today?

How are the fish being treated with the salt doing?

There is no such thing as ich that is salt resistant

That is the only reason I didn't tell you to 100% switch to salt in both tanks. After Vickie confirmed this, I would agree.. get all the meds out. Your fish have been clear for some time now (the ones getting the Rid-Ich). Those meds are soooooooo hard on the fish.. Time to switch to the salt. Most likely you've killed off everything in the first place. And what you haven't the salt will kill. It will be soo much better for them.

She went from mostly very pale orange with black spots and a silver belly to almost all silver, but the black spots and some orange are still there. Her gill covers are silver. Is this related at all?

How quickly did the fish change color? Was this as gradual change, or something that happened fast?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

One of the main problems with meds like rid-ich is that they will not only kill the ich, but they will kill the bacteria that keeps your cycle going. Salt doesn't do this. Also, they remove the oxygen from the water. Are you using airstones for the fish that you have given Rid Ich?

Its of course up to you. But I would remove the meds and finish the treatment with salt. There are no shortcuts for ich or any other fish disease. Parasites are very sly which is how they survive. Because you don't see them doesn't mean that they are gone. The ich larvae stay encapsulated, protected from both meds and salt, and will hatch and reattach to your fish if you don't continue the treatment for 3-5 days after you have seen the last ich on your fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

I'm not sure if it was gradual or sudden, I haven't really gotten a good look at her since she's been in the rubbermaid. I was wondering if the amount of sunlight would have anything to do with this? The main tank gets a lot of sun, and the rubbermaids get almost absolutely no sun because I cover them. The spots were kind of faded in the first place, too.

And yes, both tanks have pretty big airstones in them. The bar kind, but not a bubble bar, you know?

I'm about to up the amount of salt in the salted rubbermaid to .2%, and start completely removing the meds from the water in the other rubbermaid. I think I'm gonna do two 75% water changes in that one over a period of the next few hours, then I'll add .1% salt to it. Does that sound good?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Sunlight can certainly affect a fishes coloring!!!! I'm not the best person for advice on the color questions, but it is quite possible that moving the fish away from the sunlight is what's causing the colors to fade..

At this point I think you can move faster with the salt.. It's been a few days already, and you really want to get that salt up to 0.3%, in BOTH rubbermaids. You can increase the salt every 12 hours, (faster in a real emergency). SOunds like your fish has been at 0.1% salt for a while now. I would up it to 0.2% then maybe later tonight up it to 0.3% (depending on what time it is there now, bedtime etc.) and if not up it to 0.3% for sure in the morning.

Like Vickie said you want to leave the salt at 0.3% AFTER the last spots fall off. When I treated for Ich Trinket told me to keep the salt in for 6 days after the last spot falls off. So while you SHOULD remove those meds, you should still salt for at least 6 days (more if the spots return).

You could also do a 100% water change if you'd like to remove all the meds.

I forget- have you been running carbon in your filters this whole time, or have you removed the carbon? If you removed it, you could replace it now. It helps remove the meds. If you never DID remove it, the carbon may have absorbed most of the medicine you were adding anyway, and that would be a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Katherine

Woah, I just took a closer look at Sylvia and she looks paler because she has no scales! This is really bad. :[ I did a water change and put in a filter cartridge with carbon in it; I also loaded the water with Stress coat. Should I still treat with salt?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Oh man. Sylvia has NO scales? I am wondering the same thing...if she was in the salt or the RidIch.

Are you sure she has no scales? I'm wondering because when Moby lost some scales they grew back silver and he is gold. I freaked out thinking he was missing scales.

If she truly has lost all of her scales, I'm sending out an SOS.

Edited by vickielm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Vickie if the scales are missing it is becoming out of my league. Do you know whether she should still be salting? I would assume that if the fish WAS one of the fish with meds, then the meds may have damaged her, and burned her scales. In that case I would think 0.1% salt might help with healing, but does she want to go higher, or even salt at all I don't know. Might be time to PM Trinket (you do it! I bug her too much! LOLOLOL)

Oh good you just edited and you wrote you are sending out an SOS! : )

Katherine at this point can you take a look and make sure that the scales are gone? Then hang in there and we'll get some help for you. Do get all of the meds out if you haven't already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
I also loaded the water with Stress coat.

What do you mean by "loaded" the water with Stress Coat? Very "slimey" water conditioners like Stress Coat can accumulate on fishes' gills and impair their ability to extract oxygen from the water. This is especially true in fish that are already stressed or if you use more of the product than the label recommends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
Katherine are Sylvia's scales gone? Post back asap as Sue and I will worry until you do. :krazy:

omg..all scales are gone??..how wud tht happen..ohhh poor baby...must be soo stressed..Sylvia..you sure all scales are gone???...please post back soon...true we are freaking out here... :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Okay, let's see what we can do.

1. Because all of the fish were together and were equally exposed to ich, they should be treated the same regardless of their symptoms, but with salt, as advised, because, yes, meds are harsh and malachite green is especially harsh. Besides, you're going to lose track of what you've done to whom unless you're keeping a detailed journal and it's just easier to take care of everyone with the same problem the same way.

2. Ich has a cycle of up to 30 days, especially in cooler water or water where there is a substrate that allowed the eggs to hibernate, hatch and repopulate. I'm a stickler for erring on the side of caution, so I myself would choose to continue to salt well past the last time ich was seen; at least two weeks. There is no rushing good health.

3. Please, yes, get rid of all of that sand. Sand is not a substrate for goldfish. Bare bottom is best, next followed by large rocks.

4. Finally, with regard to the loss of scales, my first thought is that it could be due to the scratching or flashing they did in their attempts to scrape off the ich. If that is the case, there is nothing to be done except continue to treat for the ich/treat with salt, keep the water in pristine conditions and slowly the scales will grow back.

The other possibility is that the fish acquired a secondary infection from the flashing or decreased immunity brought on by the ich which may have caused the scales to fall off, but again, the same treatment applies with the addition of feeding medicated food.

But, if you feel that the ich is still not responding, and you wanted to give some extra, but still gentle, safe treatment of this problem, another shotgun remedy that works well is combining salt, Dimilin, and Prazi.

Because the fish have the scale loss, even if you feel that the ich is completely gone, you must continue to salt, keep the water ultra pristine and feed medicated food until the scales grow back.

Edited by Lynda Von G
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
The salt WILL work, I promise you. There is no such thing as ich that is salt resistant.

I am not sure that this is true. Many fish stores and importers these days are keeping their tanks and pools at 0.1-0.3% salt all the time. As a result salt-resistant strains of ich are emerging. Katherine's fish have already undergone 0.3% salt treatment as well as higher concentration salt baths. She routinely keeps her tank at 0.1% salt. This would tend to suggest that the ich that have infected the fish now are at least familiar with salt, unfortunately. In Rick Hess' book it says that goldfish can tolerate higher concentrations of salt (in the 0.6% range) for short periods of time, but if the one fish is truly without scales then I don't know if this is a good idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...