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Goldfish Lesion


Guest clay

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Hello. We have a sick 3 inch ryukin named Goldie. Goldie is 2 years old. Our tank is 56 gallons for two fish (Goldie and a 3 inch oranda). Ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, nitrates are 10. Ph is around 8. The tank has been up and running for about 9 months and we have well water which we treat with Amquel before changing the water. The Oranda seems fine. Goldie started sinking/staying at the bottom about 4 days ago. She seems to be sleeping on the rocks all the time and takes a long time to wake up. She does swim around at feeding time for a couple hours (we feed once a day in the evening), but then returns to the bottom of the tank. She still is happy to eat food. In the past, Goldie has had digestive problems and has floated quite a bit, which we've treated with medicated food (Medi-Gold) off and on when it's gotten really bad. The Medigold always stops the floating, but we try to only use in 2 week periods so as not to overmedicate.. We had been treating her with medicated food for the last few weeks for the floating, and the sinking/staying at the bottom started about 4 days ago.

We've also noticed that she seems bloated/swollen lately. She also has developed a lump/protrusion on her side that sticks out-it seems to be getting bigger. We are very concerned about the sinking/bloating/lump Does anyone have any ideas as to what it could be? We've stopped with the Medi-gold thinking that maybe it was too rich and causing indigestion but the problem has only gotten worse. We'd appreciate any suggestions! Thanks.

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A picture would really help. You also didn't mention how often you do water changes and how much water you change out and your cleaning routine. That information will help immensely. Another thing that would help a lot is to tell us what her poop looks like.

This bump could be a tumor or a cyst. My ryukin got something that sounds somewhat similar. Bloating and a small bump/pimple looking thing.

Here is a link to my thread Leroy's Bump on that topic and here, in particular, is what Trinket advised for my problem:

"I think the small lump is a cyst caused by the lapse in water attention and build up of bacteria. A stress borne opportunistic isolated cyst. Bacteria get inside the fish in various ways and are on board or resident in the water and tank -only multiplying rapidly in adverse conditions (=the warmer water and sudden change in water changing routine+ hypoxia from increased oxygen needs at higher temps) then they colonise in small localised areas. When they breed they produce fluids that cause swelling and usually need an exit. This is why these bacterial cysts will often develop a head like a zit and the poisons will be released. Back into the water.

This kind of lump can go hand in hand or follow along after off-kilter swimming as the bacteria are affecting osmoregulation and the salt should help with that at 0.1%. Because of the position and the fact that there is no red surrounding the lump I would say at this point, this is caused by a milder strain of bacteria - (=easier to recover from) a bacterial dermatopathy kind of infection.

I would isolate the ryukin and give him daily water changes so that any poisons are released into water that is quickly removed."

You also referred to your ryukin as "she." In that case, this also could be that she has egg impaction.

I don't want to advise beyond this and prefer to wait for a Mod to give an opinion. One thing, however, about the salt, is that if your fish is bloated/swollen, salt can make that situation worse and, instead, it is advised to put the fish in a qt tank with epsom salt at 1/4 tsp. per 10 gallons of water. Treating with epsom salt cannot do any harm, and with bloating/egg impaction, epsom salt is the treatment usually chosen. It is a gentle laxative/diuretic and will draw fluids out of the fish.

If it is an internal bacterial infection, the MediGold will help. It is possible that there are foods gf cannot handle. MetroMeds is another alternative, however, I again, will leave the decision on med food to a Mod.

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New development...see pic, the bump seems to have burst open into a fuzzy white thing. It almost looks like something growing out of her, except that it appears to be soft and fuzzy, similar to some of the lumps the fish have gotten in the past, for which we originally purchased the medi-gold.

Water changes have been sporadic. Typically they are once every 2 weeks, 20% water change, sometimes more frequently, rarely less. This has kept the parameters relatively stable in the larger tank (they used to be in a 20 gal tank) but doesn't always give a good source of clean water.

The fish has not had a good poo as far as I can tell for several days, which may be the cause of the bloating, so I stopped feeding altogether two days ago now to try to give her time to pass whatever may be blocking her intestinal tract, if that is indeed the problem. Is the blob an emergency? I don't know what if anything I can do for her, I don't have an emergency tank set up but I do have a small (2 gal?) tank set back in case it is needed. May have to run out to the store and get a larger tank. I also have clean 4 gal buckets that are used for the water changes, I could put her in a bucket but am worried about stressing her more in there.

goldie.jpg

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I'm afraid this one may be an emergency. See background/params at:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=71715

I'll repost the pic here:

goldie.jpg

I'm worried that the fish has a serious condition...bits of the white stuff coming out of here seem to be breaking off and floating away. She hasn't had a poo for several days which is unlike her, though she's always had problems with floating, etc. Sorry if it's not an emergency but i'm worried that the fish has some major intestinal or parasitic problem that is causing this, it certainly looks very gross and dangerous. I'm very worried about the fish, please, any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Clay

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These kind of lesions/boils on the lateral line indicate the fish is filled up with poisonous fluids created by the fishes immuneresponse in an effort to expel the invading bacteria. Fish are little osmotic machines- meaning anything in their water can potentially get right through a damaged slime coat and into the internal organs which are so very near the surface. Its an immune reaction to expel the enemy bacteria with the fluids. Unfortunately when the slime coat is damaged and the GI tract is not working efficiently for one reason or another, the waste cannot be expelled correctly and it pushes through the fish in headed (that pop) localised boils

The fluids released are extremely poisonous and can re-infect. A fish showing an oozing wound should be removed to pristene water and have 100% water changes daily flushing the poisons. Some people even will pop the boil if its ready and release the toxins and then return the fish. Of course this is a very delicate procedure and not something many fishkeepers want to try + you do need all the right equipment.

Antibiotics can help but they need to be the right one for the particular main group of bacteria on board, always very difficult to prescribe with these kind of boils as soooo many bacteria strains can cause them. Many people have had success with the sulfa group of antibiotics (there is one in medigold) but Jungle anti bacteria also contains some. If you tried MG perhaps you should next try Jungle.

BUT NOTHING will work without commitment to soem HUGE w/cs to clear the bacterial load that has built. Don't forget to scrub the tank sides, these collect very nasty anaerobes.

Lastly ulcer disease (lateral line ulcers) responds very well also to Rick's TRICIDE-NEO dip available at goldfish.connection.com.

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New development...see pic, the bump seems to have burst open into a fuzzy white thing. It almost looks like something growing out of her, except that it appears to be soft and fuzzy, similar to some of the lumps the fish have gotten in the past, for which we originally purchased the medi-gold.

Water changes have been sporadic. Typically they are once every 2 weeks, 20% water change, sometimes more frequently, rarely less. This has kept the parameters relatively stable in the larger tank (they used to be in a 20 gal tank) but doesn't always give a good source of clean water.

The fish has not had a good poo as far as I can tell for several days, which may be the cause of the bloating, so I stopped feeding altogether two days ago now to try to give her time to pass whatever may be blocking her intestinal tract, if that is indeed the problem. Is the blob an emergency? I don't know what if anything I can do for her, I don't have an emergency tank set up but I do have a small (2 gal?) tank set back in case it is needed. May have to run out to the store and get a larger tank. I also have clean 4 gal buckets that are used for the water changes, I could put her in a bucket but am worried about stressing her more in there.

I knew that I would see insufficient water changes in your answer. Weekly water changes must be done and, at least, in the 50% range with a good vacuuming and filter rinse. I've learned this the hard way. I slacked off on water changes and got the exact same problem as you as a result. Regular water changes are about more than just keeping down ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates. Even when the water readings come out fine, bad bacteria can still build up in the tank and get inside the fish. Thin, pale, stringy poo is a sign of a bacterial infection.

Yeah, you do need to treat this problem. If you can't afford a "real" tank, a 10 gallon rubbermaid type storage bin with a good filter works equally well as a qt tank. A 2 gallon tank isn't going to work. The ammonia is going to build up too fast and you'd be doing 100% water changes twice a day. I think it's going to be pretty much the same with a 4 gallon bucket. Plus, there's the added factor of stress by putting the fish in such a small space. However, as this bump has already popped now and all that toxic poison has been released into the main tank, the main tank is going to need to be treated as well. I would like Trinket to confirm that, but I do believe that is what you need to do. With the meds she advised. Best of luck and keep us posted!

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Thanks for the advice. They had seemingly been doing okay until now, sometimes they'd get small white blips that the medi-gold would take care of. She'll have to make it overnight, but I'll run out tomorrow after work and set up a 10 gal tank and start the water change cycle on the 56 gal tank. I think I'm going to need a larger container to do water changes, it takes a lot of 4 gal buckets to fill up 56 gallons...

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I bought and set up a 10 gal tank today. I had prepped the water overnight per the usual procedure so the water temp and general conditions should be what the fish is used to. I couldn't find any sulfa-based antibiotics at the LFS, so I treated with Maracyn 2 as this was readily available and I used it once before, several years ago, with good effect.

I am very nervous about relocating the fish now, however. The water is 100% clean and also 100% dead. It's not really an option to let it cycle at this point, which would take several weeks. If I move the fish to her newly prepped emergency tank, what do I need to do to keep her safe after the change? Daily 50% water change? Daily 100% water change? Will it only make it worse if the tank is not cycled?

Thanks again,

Clay

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No it will not make her worse at all. Its the best treatment place for sick fish- a QT . You will need to change out all the water daily or at least 80% (more than 50%) so its kept very pristene. Be very careful you match temp (with your finger) and check pH. If you have a low kH also pay special attention to QT pH. I have lost a fish to a pH crash overnite while in QT.

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Goldie has improved but has a few new problems. We have had her in a 10 gallon QT for over a week now, with 60-70 percent water changes almost every day. We've been treating the water with Maracyn 2 and just switched from the Medigold food we were treating her with to Jungle medicated antibacterial food. She's in good spirits and has started pooing again. Appetite is normal and no more sinking/sitting at bottom of the tank.The white fuzz that was coming out of her side is now gone and there's no longer a huge gash in her side, it looks like it's mostly healed. However, she's developed a few new problems. First, her butt/tail is floating-it almost looks like shes standing on her head. It looks uncomfortable for her. Second, she has a new bump on the top of her body. It has no color to it-it's just a bump. It actually looks like the bump she had a couple weeks ago before it erupted into the white fuzz which prompted our earlier post. We're worried that the Jungle/Maracyn is not effective against the particular strain of bacteria she has and that this bump will erupt too.

Our other fish, the Oranda, in our regular 56 gallon tank, still seems fine, although is lonely without his friend Goldie. We've upped the water changes on that tank and also replaced the filter/did a thorough cleaning of the walls.

Any suggestions on different treatment for Goldie? Should we try epsom salts or any other bacterial medication? Thanks for everyon'es posts/suggestions.....

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Clay, it could be that the medicated food makes her float temporarily. Since it is her only food, and not a variety of foods like her previous diet was, it could be that its just the food.

Was there a reason you switched from Medigold to Jungle? How long have you been treating her with the Maracyn? :)

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Goldie's getting worse again. Today she has a new lesion, this time under one of her gills, with more white fuzz springing out of it. It looks just like the last one (see earlier photo) except less white fuzz. The floating has mostly stopped, but she still has a lump on her back topside, and then this new white fuzzy lesion. We've been changing her water, 60-70 percent changes, almost everyday, in the 10 gallon Quarantine Tank, and all the parameters are at 0. She has a good appetite and has been pooing regularly, although they are very long, and instead of being green/brown they are almost clear.

We had used Maracyn 2 for 7 days, following instruction on package. We're worried that it's the wrong antibacterial treatment for her infection. We bought some regular Maracyn today in the hopes that it might work better. Someone in this post suggested switchiing to Jungle from Medigold. We will switch back if anyone thinks it could help.

We're still unsure about what bacterial treatment to use.....does the white fuzz sound like a particular kind to anyone? Any more suggestions on what to do?? thanks...

Our other fish is lonely in our regular 56 gallon tank but does not appear to be sick.

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