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From Bad To Worse


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[*]Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia Level? 0.0

Nitrite Level? less than 0.3

Nitrate level? ?

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.0 KH 7 dh, 13 dh

Ph Level (KH/GH) out of the Tap? 7.5

Brand of test-kit used? (strips or drops?) Drops

[*]Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 10 gallons two and a half weeks

[*]What is the name and size of the filter/s? 15 gallon whisper power filter

[*]How often do you change the

water and how much?

40% every two days

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 1and 1.2 inch

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Dechlorinator

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Add any new fish to the tank? no

[*]What do you feed your fish? gel food, brine, veggies

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as

"grains of salt", no

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating,ect..? Pearlscale with SWB and popeye, Ruykin is floating and banging into walls

Hi everyone. I'm in the process of completing my cycle in my tank. Sorry I still don't know my nitrates. My last water change was on Friday when my nitrites were starting to raise to 0.3. Now my reading is empty but my fish are in bad shape. The Pearlscale has been a mess (constant swim bladder issues) through the cycling. I didn't even realize it was cycling, but now that I realize that and that I'm overstocked I've been really careful and persistant with the water tests. Today both fish look terrible. My healthy fish has been quiet for the last day or two, but I thought it was because I am fasting them for a few days due to swim bladder. But when I added peas for them today (the Pearlscale is mostly upside down today) they both refused it and that is when I knew something was wrong. Now the Ruykin is banging into walls and being tossed around by the current and my Pearlscale is upside down. I did a forty percent water change even though my reading was fine.

There are two things that I did that are the only things I can think of that could have this dramatic of an effect. I bought new rocks from my LFS and a new plant. I rinsed them carefully and added them to the tank on Friday. On Friday I also used Loctite Clear Sealant to glue rocks to my plastic plants. I let it cure 48 hours and added them Sunday night.

Today they almost seem poisoned and both are showing signs of popeye. Is this new tank sydrome or is it possbile I poisoned them? I'm a nervous wreck....

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I'm not that good yet with treating diseases and really technical stuff. On the surface, all your readings and water changes seem okay, but there's definitely a problem. They might have brought something with them. Did they all come out of the same tank, different tanks, what? You need to check nitrates because even though they are less dangerous, if they're too high, they're still very dangerous. Also, I can only say that if they recently got worse, I'd turn back the things you changed. Remove all the things you just added and do a really large water change. The BBs aren't in the water, they're in the filter, gravel, things like that, so it shouldn't hurt that part of things and if you have high nitrates, that will help with that. They're not eating, so you can't feed epsom salt in peas, but a mod may suggest to add epsom salt to the water for the floating. I really can't answer your questions more specifically, but I just wanted you to know that you did a good job answering the questions and we are all here to support you and a mod should be on sometime soon to help you better.

Good luck and keep good thoughts!

Edited by lynda441
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Thanks, Lynda. I really don't know what is happening. The way they are acting suggests some kind of poisoning because it seems to have happened so fast with the other fish. I removed all of the ornaments I glued with the silicone, but left the large rocks on the bottom. The Pearlscale I inherited with the tank and I really don't know where she came from or how long my friend had her. I suspect not very long and that her tank wasn't cycled. The other one came from my LFS and I did notice one sick fish in the tank with him and asked the store worker who said it wasn't a big deal and so I of course believed him. He has seemed really healthy until now. Though it is possible that he was carrying something and just hid it well. I'm just feeling awful for them.

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Hey Amy!!! I am sooooo sorry to hear things are getting worse.. I have no advice to offer at this point, all I can say is I hope things turn back around for your fish.. The other day when you said that Tangerine was swimming better, I was hoping you were coming to the end of all the problems.. Good luck with everything. I hope someone gets on soon that can help...I wish I knew more, but once it gets to disease issues I have nothing to offer..Tangerine & Searchlight ---get well soon!

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Thanks for your support. At this point I'm trying to stay positive, but I'm not feeling very positive. Searchlightis looking extremely pale and like he has some sort of film over his eyes. Tangerine is just upside down. The both hid during the water change which they never do and just turned their backs on me (well, Tangerine her stomach) when I put food in.

I added 1/4 tsp. Epsom and I have to go to bed soon. I have to go to San Diego early in the morning and it the last thing I want to do. I was really looking forward to it, too. I stay in my favorite hotel and the dog beach and my dog always comes with me and has the best time. At least he'll have fun.

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Oh what a terrible time to be going away! To some degree you will be worried about what's going on at home. Try to enjoy your stay as best you can... That sounds like so much fun to be able to go and bring the dogs!! I am sooo jealous!!! We're going to the beach for a little while tomorrow but your trip beats mine by a long shot lol

This is sooo tricky right now because I have absolutely no idea what you are dealing with. At this point, if your fish had Ich, I've seen it and could try my best to give you advice.. But with so many different things going on, I have NO idea..

Are you planning a large water change before you go?? Does your test kit have an expiration date anywhere on it??? I'm actually kind of surprised that your nitrite levels are so low while at this stage in the cycling.. It's strange to see the fish getting worse as you are getting better and better about taking care of them.. This must be so frustrating for you.. I hope everything turns out for you.I really hope they improve..

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Thank you everyone. Last night, both Tangerine and Searchlight passed away. My husband promised to watch them while I went to sleep (he was very worried about me driving this early and this far for work this morning) and he sat by the tank. Tangerine went first (he said she spasamed twice before going) and so he panicked and moved Searchlight to a bucket with clean water, but it was too late and Searchlight went shortly after. I'm so upset.

To me this suggests some kind of poisoning. The only thing I can think of is that I did boil some rocks that had epoxy on them. Or the aqauirium safe silicone wasn't actually safe. How do I know what to remove?

How do I treat the tank for disease? I'm ready to stop the cycle, clean everything and try a fishless cycle.

Then I will try again with only one goldfish...I'm pretty scared to try again. Something went so seriously wrong.

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Awww,I am so very sorry. I have no real advise but think if it was me I'd tear it down and start again after a thorough clean/disinfect. I'm sure those more in the know will have solid advise for you here in a bit.

Kathy

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Thank you everyone. Last night, both Tangerine and Searchlight passed away. My husband promised to watch them while I went to sleep (he was very worried about me driving this early and this far for work this morning) and he sat by the tank. Tangerine went first (he said she spasamed twice before going) and so he panicked and moved Searchlight to a bucket with clean water, but it was too late and Searchlight went shortly after. I'm so upset.

To me this suggests some kind of poisoning. The only thing I can think of is that I did boil some rocks that had epoxy on them. Or the aqauirium safe silicone wasn't actually safe. How do I know what to remove?

How do I treat the tank for disease? I'm ready to stop the cycle, clean everything and try a fishless cycle.

Then I will try again with only one goldfish...I'm pretty scared to try again. Something went so seriously wrong.

Awww.... sweetie.... I'm so sorry! But, my, what a wonderful husband you have there! It's so difficult to lose fish, but don't give up. We all, every single one of us, have been there and you learn more and more as you do this more. So, yes, I say, start over. Clean out your tank well, get it good and cycled, being very patient to do it right, only get a fish, one fish, after it's completely cycled, choose a healthy looking fish from a healthy looking tank. Don't settle for just any fish just because you desperately want one. Treat that new fish for flukes with Prazi-Pro right from the beginning. And, don't listen to people who work in fish stores and definitely not chain stores. We're here for you babe! Big hugs! :grouphug

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Aww no Amy!!! I am so sorry to be reading this news.. I wanted so bad to sign on here and see that they were getting better...I am really sorry that you had to lose both of them, and I am sorry you weren't with them. Your husband really is very sweet.. RIP Tangerine & Searchlight. Poor babies.

I would do EXACTLY what Lynda said. Actually, I'm about to start a fishless cycle on a tank that had disease. So once again, we'll be going through similar things at the same time.. It's like a game - "Bet MY tank cycles faster than YOURS". Acupunk passed this link along to me for disinfecting the tank...

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=41101

And even thought this one is pinned I found this thread helpful when it came to ideas on quarentining new fish.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=32884

I hope you stay around the board!!! I think you will, you already seem "hooked" : )

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Sounds like there might have been something wrong with the rocks or other things you might have put in the tank :( I would take it all apart and clean the tank with Vinegar and hot water and all the equipment. Maybe get other rocks if you want them in the tank :D

Sorry to hear them die :(

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Thanks everyone for the kind words. It was a really tough night and I can't tell you how touched I was that Geoff stayed up with them all night. He was so worried about me being up all night and driving that far in the morning.

I am planning to do exactly what everyone said. I am breaking down everything and cleaning it all tommorrow. Then I am going to follow all of the instructions I can find for a fishless cycle. I went to a store called Goldfish World (seriously...that is the name) today and bought API Stress Zyme to add to the water, but I'm not counting on that helping a whole lot in the cycling but I figure it can't hurt.

I am planning to do a hot water and vinegar cleaning. Or do you guys prefer bleach or PP? I've thrown out all my plastic plants and the rocks I glued on there...I just don't trust them. My plan right now is to keep and clean the rocks from my LFS (I have a hard time believing those caused the problem but I sure hope they didn't), clean my airstone and tubing, clean my tank.

I read about boiling gravel and rocks for nuking a tank, but then I read that you should never boil rocks that have been covered in epoxy (most from a LFS have been) because it causes them to release toxins. This is what I believe may have happened. So I'm hoping I can just clean those in a vinegar solution.

A few questions if anyone is on to help. How much vinegar should I add to the hot water? Should I throw out my filter and sponge for my filter? How do I clean my live plants or do I have to lose those?

Any advice for the fishless cycle?

And I am hooked, indeed. I plan to spend a long time searching for the perfect and healthy fish. So far every LFS I have been to has at least one or two sick fish in their tanks of goldfish. The one today had a fish bleeding from its mouth on top of other sick fish. Is this the norm? I haven't yet found a tank without any sick fish in it and I have been to nine different stores.

Thanks so much! I can't wait for the day that I can offer advice in return...but boy is that a long time off...

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It's nearer than you think :heart It takes this kind of experience for most people to morph into really knowledgable fish owners who are able to understand the suffering of others who lose their fishpets too.

I am really sorry you lost these two. You tried hard. I agree with koko, sounds like a poisoning, that glue, the rocks..a few possibilities.

We look forward to having you around and talking you through a fishless cycle and anything else you need help with along the way :hug

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Thanks so much. I'm sure I will be asking about a million more questions. Do you think that the rocks from my LFS are safe? I added those on Friday. Those weren't glued or anything...they are just large river rocks that I used in place of gravel.

That is the only one I am worried about. The plastic plants with the supposedly aquarium safe silicone and the rocks I boiled that were epoxied went right in the garbage. That seems like the most likely culprit to me, but to be safe a full cleaning and a long cycle is in order.

And I just learned all about cleaning my live plants...how stupid that I never thought about bacteria on the plants. Another possible cause.

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Okay, I remember some discussions I've had in the past with other fishkeepers, but I don't remember all the details. It had something to do with pouring vinegar on rocks to determine whether they're safe. It was if they bubble/foam up after the vinegar is poured on, they're not safe (I believe that was it), but I don't remember why. Anyone with insight on that?

And I've used aquarium safe silicone for gluing plants with no problems, but then I've always let it cure very well. I let the object sit for a good week before putting it in the tank. Did you use aquarium safe silicone? There are two kinds and there's something in the regular silicone that isn't safe for aquariums. So, that could be a difference.

It takes this kind of experience for most people to morph into really knowledgable fish owners

It's sad that fish have to die so that we might learn, but learn is what we have to do. We have to find the positive from a bad experience and learn from it. And the learning is exponential from one experience to the next. It seems that you don't just learn one good thing from one bad experience. You seem to learn a whole handful of things from one bad experience, so the curve is there and you'll get to a knowledgeable place quickly once you just start desperately wanting to learn.

BTW: Is that Goldfish World in San Diego?

Edited by lynda441
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Im not very big on Bleach since if you dont rinse it well it can remain in the plastic and leach back out again. As for PP that is normally used when the tank has had fish that were diseased (like Ick, Dropsy ect..). Using Vinegar is a good mild cleaner and if there is a small trace of it in the plastics (example: filter, air stone) it wont hurt the fish, but Please remember to rinse, rinse, and rinse. Always try to get it all off. :D

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Hi Lynda,

I've done the rock test (if the vinegar fizzes you don't want it), but most rocks from a LFS and most gravel is covered with a resin. This keeps bad things from leeching out into the water.

The silicone did say aqaurium safe, but I put the plants in there maybe 35 hours or so after gluing them. I rinsed them with some water, but it was a quick rinse. That seems the most likely culprit to me.

I think this hit me so hard, because I am big into animal rights and I feel so guilty having harmed another creature especially for my knowledge. But the upside is learning and caring enough to learn from experience.

When I told my co-worker that the goldfish was sick she said, "don't goldfish die all the time?" and even my mom said, "just get another $3.00 fish and see what happens...you don't need to clean the tank." Ugh!

Yes...it was Goldfish World in San Diego. I see you are from LA, too! Can you help me with any ideas on good stores around here? I feel like I don't know where to go.

One more quick question...in my cleaning should I throw out the filter carbon and sponge or try to salvage the good bacteria in there?

Thanks!

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Im not very big on Bleach since if you dont rinse it well it can remain in the plastic and leach back out again. As for PP that is normally used when the tank has had fish that were diseased (like Ick, Dropsy ect..). Using Vinegar is a good mild cleaner and if there is a small trace of it in the plastics (example: filter, air stone) it wont hurt the fish, but Please remember to rinse, rinse, and rinse. Always try to get it all off. :D

Hi Koko,

How much vinegear should I use to water? Should I run it through the tank for an hour or two before rinsing? I will remove the filter carbon and sponge, but should I get a new one of that? Can I use this to clean my live plants?

Sorry for all of the questions...I'm ready for a massive cleaning tonight!

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Just to keep everyone posted...tonight I rinsed everything. Then I put everything (gravel, new silk plants, airstone, filter without sponge and cartridge and all) in a bucket with a cup of white vinegar and water. I scrubbed the tank down with baking soda and vinegar and rinsed well.

Then I rinsed everything, put it all back in the tank (my net, vaccum and rinsed filter media) and filled the tank up with water and a 1/4 c. salt per gallon of water. I'm now running the tank through this salt mix. Tommorrow I will break everything down and rinse, run it with fresh water and then rinse again.

I'm also soaking all of my live plants in a bucket overnight with a Jungle PC tablet.

Then I'm ready to add my first bit of pure ammonia and some Stress Zyme and see if I can get this cycle started. I hope I did it all okay.

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Thanks, Koko. There will be much rinsing tonight and if it goes anything like last night, I expect to get soaking wet. I'm starting to wonder if I should just get in the shower with the fish tank :rofl

Koko, I think I saw that you live in Los Angeles along with Lynda. Any stores that you in particular reccomend? In a month or so when my tank is cycled I will be trying to find that perfect healthy fish (ideally a Calico Ryukin or Oranda). I want to check them out in advance.

Thanks!

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Thanks, Koko. There will be much rinsing tonight and if it goes anything like last night, I expect to get soaking wet. I'm starting to wonder if I should just get in the shower with the fish tank :rofl

Koko, I think I saw that you live in Los Angeles along with Lynda. Any stores that you in particular reccomend? In a month or so when my tank is cycled I will be trying to find that perfect healthy fish (ideally a Calico Ryukin or Oranda). I want to check them out in advance.

Thanks!

Ah.... nope, Koko lives up in Cental California; Goleta. But, yeah, I'm here in LA. Where are you located in LA? I've scoped out a few shops in my area, West LA, Culver City, WeHo and the Valley, but none, really in the south areas.

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Yup, a few.

Oranda Aquarium

7318 Santa Monica Blvd.

West Hollywood, CA 90046

Phone: (323) 876-5059 (closed Tuesdays)

This one is really nice, but you never know what they're going to have, so you have to check often. I got my blue oranda there, but, for instance, now, they haven't had blue orandas for quite a while. They have chocolates now though

The Aquarium

5403 Sepulveda Blvd

Culver City, CA 90230

Phone: (310) 390-1240 (closed Mondays)

This one can be hit or miss. Sometimes the quality is up, sometimes it's not. I got my little lionhead there. It was this one and only teeny tiny thing in with a bunch of big sarassa comets. I've never seen them have lionheads before. I've never seen anyone have lionheads before. There were a lot of sick tanks at the time, but it's doing great, btw....

Apex Aquarium

4338 Sepulveda Blvd

Culver City, CA 90230

Phone: (310) 391-0305

This one can be hit or miss too. They used to be really nice. Their quality is slipping, but sometimes they're okay still. As always, you just gotta look close at the fish in the tank.

Aquarium City

21723 Sherman Way

Canoga Park, CA 91303

Phone: (818) 887-7369

This one is really nice. And they have been the only ones willing to put my name on a wait list. It's for a 2" chocolate pom pom oranda. That should prove to be a tall order, but they did have a large 4.5 inch one the first time I went in there. It was in quarantine so they wouldn't sell it. When I went back, it was gone, so I don't know if someone bought it or it died. But, they claim they buy from the largest distributor on the West Coast.

Aquarium Odyssey

73950 Highway 111

Palm Desert, CA 92260

Phone: (760) 837-1868

This place is really, really nice. Palm Desert. Who knew!?! My parents live in Palm Desert, so I went aquarium looking one day. They had two 4.5" male sakura ryukins that were gorgeous and it was killing me to have to walk away. So, if a 2 hour drive each way is worth it to you, it's a nice place. They put my name on a wait list too.

RiverWonders.com

Mailing Adress: 13429 S Western Ave. Suite B

Gardena, CA 90249

Tel: (310) 516-8688, (818) 430-6826

Fax: (310) 844-7671

RiverWonders.com Website

They are an online order store only, but I emailed them and they said that, since we live near them, we are welcome to contact them to arrange to come in and pick up our order. They have some very nice looking fish, but I can only have one more small fish and these are all too large for me, but, for online fish sales, at 3", they are a very reasonable size and price.

Edited by lynda441
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