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Ragged Fins And Holes In Fins


BruceP

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First let me apologize if I am doing this wrong but I couldnt copy/paste the questionaire into this for some reason.

Drop test:

AM .25

NitrIte .25

NitrAte .10

PH 7.8

GH 144

KH 72

Sal. 0%

Temp 76f

NEW 110g tank with Emperor 400, Magnum 350 w/biowheels, Foam Fractionator (cuz I had it)

Changing ab out 50% twice a week til it cycles.

We have Proform LA in the tank since Sunday.

They get fed twice daily with Hikari Lionhead Gold Sinking food.

Currently in the tank are two 3" bodied Ryukin, one 5" bodied Black Moor, one 5" bodied Ranchu, and one 6" bodied Black Oranda.

As you see, this is a new tank but this isnt a new problem as we have been fighting it for a few months. Ragged edges of the fins and actual pin-hole sized holes in the fins. We have tried several different treatments with limited success; Parasite Clear, ProformC, TricideNeo spray, and now Proform LA.

These are all show quality fish and would really like to get them cleared up. The Black Oranda last month won Grand Champion at the NWZNA show at Indy. :) HE is a she as we found out Monday... lol

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Bruce and Lari

Any suggestions?

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Hello and welcome to Koko's. Congratulations on your win. A few thoughts on your problem:

  • Can you tell us something about the tank that the fish were in before? Did the problem develop in water that had zero ammonia and nitrite, or has it developed since the fish have been in the new tank?
  • Two times per week water changes during cycling is generally not enough. I know that changing such a large volume is rough -- if you are not able to change water at least every other day you should cut back to one light feeding per day to control the amount of ammonia produced by the fish. A few of my fish developed fin splits and pin point holes during cycling. The problem areas healed within three days after the tank was cycled.
  • Photos will also be helpful to us. When you say "ragged" fins, do you mean that they have splits, or are they eroded as in fin rot? Have your fish been treated with Prazi for flukes? Flukes can cause split fins.
  • KH below 100 needs to be buffered up to prevent your pH from slipping. Buff It Up from www.goldfishconnection.com is a good product.
  • 0.3% salt will help protect the fish against nitrite stress and will help the fins heal.
  • Another filter wouldn't hurt anything -- goldfish generally do best with water filtered at least ten times per hour. This means you need 1100 gph of filtration. You will find that your tank will cycle much faster with this amount of filtration.

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Hello and welcome to Koko's. Congratulations on your win. A few thoughts on your problem:
  • Can you tell us something about the tank that the fish were in before? Did the problem develop in water that had zero ammonia and nitrite, or has it developed since the fish have been in the new tank?
  • Two times per week water changes during cycling is generally not enough. I know that changing such a large volume is rough -- if you are not able to change water at least every other day you should cut back to one light feeding per day to control the amount of ammonia produced by the fish. A few of my fish developed fin splits and pin point holes during cycling. The problem areas healed within three days after the tank was cycled.
  • Photos will also be helpful to us. When you say "ragged" fins, do you mean that they have splits, or are they eroded as in fin rot? Have your fish been treated with Prazi for flukes? Flukes can cause split fins.
  • KH below 100 needs to be buffered up to prevent your pH from slipping. Buff It Up from www.goldfishconnection.com is a good product.
  • 0.3% salt will help protect the fish against nitrite stress and will help the fins heal.
  • Another filter wouldn't hurt anything -- goldfish generally do best with water filtered at least ten times per hour. This means you need 1100 gph of filtration. You will find that your tank will cycle much faster with this amount of filtration.

Thanx for the quick response.

The fish came out of two 55's and were experiencing this before. Water parameters in both those tanks were basically Zeros in the Am, Nitrite and nitrate. GK and KH were similar. This 110 has only been set up since Sat. and we have changed water 50% twice, refreshing the Proform LA both times.

Fins are just ragged at the edges to about a half inch in from the edge,,, definately not rot as I have treated koi for rot.

I can raise the KH but so far the PH has been steady, I'll keep an eye on it.

I have a spare Magnum 350 I can add for additional filtration and will do, thanx for that suggestion.

I have not treated for flukes. I will do that once we are done with the Proform LA . Have plenty of Prazi powder on hand.

Dare I salt with other treatments?

I can try to get some pix for you. These BLACK fish are hard to get good pix of... lol Im new so Im not sure Im allowed to upload them but I do have a Photobucket acct. that I can link to if that is ok.

Thanx again

Bruce

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Going to try to attach some Pix. The white spot on the caudal fin of the moor in the first pic is actually a hole that is healing. It was red around the hole when if first developed. Didnt get a good pic of the big oranda but you get the idea. I'll try to get more pix of our fish for show and tell later.

100_4953.jpg

100_4956.jpg

100_4959.jpg

100_4964.jpg

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Hmmm... That looks like more than simple fin splits. Hopefully Trinket or Pixiefish (our D & D moderators) will be along soon to give you advice.

BTW, your fish are beautiful. :)

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hi Brucep I have nothing to add but wanted to tell you that your fish are beautiful...I can't help but look at your pic of your black ranchu ..looks exactly like my baby Lulu (pic in my sig)that just passed away :cry1 ..she never swam due to swim bladder ..it is nice to see what she would of looked like if she did :heart ...I

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I just wanted to double check and make sure that you don't have a pleco in there with the goldfish? Even if they appear docile during the day they can do viscious damange to goldfish during the night, including this type of fin damage.

I don't think that this type of damage is caused by lice or anchor worm, which is what the Proform LA treats for right? Have you seen any visible lice or anchor worms (they are visible with the naked eye)? If I were you, I would cut that treatment short, start treating with prazi and 0.3% salt immediately, along with a course of antibiotic food (Medigold from www.goldfishconnection.com).

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this is a new tank but this isnt a new problem as we have been fighting it for a few months. Ragged edges of the fins and actual pin-hole sized holes in the fins. We have tried several different treatments with limited success; Parasite Clear, ProformC, TricideNeo spray, and now Proform LA.

These are all show quality fish and would really like to get them cleared up. The Black Oranda last month won Grand Champion at the NWZNA show at Indy. :) HE is a

Hi Bruce and Lari,

I am sorry you seem to be having problems with your fishes fins. I think we should backtrack a little here - right back to a month or so ago when presumably your fishes fins were all fine and dandy because they won prizes at the show.

Transporting, handling and showing fish is extremely stressful. The new smaller show tank, the different water in the show tank, the constant bright light from all sides that show tanks always are...the list doesn't stop here.

After showing a fish, many people like to keep their fish in stress free conditions for a few weeks to recover from depleted levels of phagocytic cells. Phagocytic cells are the ones that are responsible for keeping the fishes immune response in good working order and these are killed and disturbed by the hormone cortisol which is releasd under stress. These cells have to be rejuvinated after a stressful period. This is done by keeping all stress factors low for a recovery period.

So #1: Cycling a tank with fish already stressed, is dangerous. The fish have no protective reserves. Cycling a tank anyway with fish in is a risky business but fish already weak will suffer even more.

And #2 Medicating for stress with harsh caustic meds like Proform and Tricide-Neo (this is an emergency ulcer disease medication not to be used under any circumstance for anything less than an ulceration emergency) are farther HUGE stressors. These kind of medications are for bacterial and parasitic disease not stress related disease.

Fin erosion, pin prick holes, and chalky fin edges are all stress signs. IF AND WHEN you see redness or total fin deterioration and fins falling off in peices you medicate. Think of fins like peoples hair. A little oily perhaps due to stress or a few late nights. Oily hair does not warrant Ibuprofen. Fin deterioration is a sign that your fish are releasing cortisol in large quantities as a stress response. This damages fins and always shows here first.

You need to get the fish into a stress free environment to heal the fins. A cycled tank would be best and then you could use ammonia to cycle this one doing a fishless cycle.

You also need to think about prazi and salt (0.3%) since you have never done this. But this will need to be done either in a cycled tank or in a tank that you do not intend to cycle and where you can change all the water daily. I don't think you need to feed medicated food, vitamin C is pre-requisite for re-building stress harmed immunty and is best provided through fresh fruits and veg. Krill, brine shrimp etc would also be good to offer.

You need to reduce ALL stressors to get rid of this problem.

Then and ONLY then, prazi and salt.

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Thank you all for the advice. I am currently doing water changes in the 55s and will put them back in there for what sounds like a much needed rest. I'll do a complete water change in this 110 and put in some small fish that are out basking in the 165g pond for cycling this big tank. We have some wakin babies that I could try to catch out of the koi pond too. Personally, I like to cycle a tank with fish and not am..... just my way. :)

Once these fish are settled in I'll prazi them. Generally we do a 3 time treatment of proform c and a prazi treatment with the third proformc treatment and let it sit for 10 days. Prazi hits the flukes and the proform catches what the Prazi doesnt hit. But, if you say 3% salt and Prazi works well with goldies I'll do it that way.

I have some Medi Gold, Medi Jump Start and some Pro Gold on the way. Probably good to have on hand even if I dont use the Medi in this case. Ive heard good things about the Pro Gold so I'm going to try it.

Thanx again for the info. Hope I can in turn help others on this great goldie site. :)

btw: anyone going to be showing at the MPKS show in Darian, IL in August? :)

Edited by BruceP
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