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Very Sick Oranda Please Help


Guest DAVK

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Guest DAVK

tank 40 gal-running 2yrs-rena xp2 and biowheel h.o.b filter

amonia-0ppm ph- 7.8 nitrite-0ppm nitrate-10ppm

medications- maracyn2 melafix pimafix salt bath 1tablespoon per 5gal

been medicating for 2 weeks

usually change h20 50% per week but have been changing 25% every day for the past 3 days due to high nitrate levels.

I just have the one fish in my tank he is about 2 years old and normally a very good eater and very large and active. About a month ago he showed signs of what I thought was fin rot (frayed dorsal fin) and a bad infection on his tail. Started the maracyn 2 and within a week his tail healed up nicely but was not eating and staying on the bottom. 3 weeks later and I have not seen him eat a thing and he just keeps getting weaker and weaker. I really do not know what else to do other than keep medicating and doing water changes. He has also started to develope black areas around his lower jaw and wen, and it looks like his wen is shrinking. He seems to have multiple symtoms and I am at a loss on what to try next. I would really like to get him to eat so he could gain some strengh to fight off whatever is ailing him. His condition is getting worse daily and I would really appreciate any advice. Thanks-

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Hi DAVK and sorry to hear your fish is ill. There's nothing more frustrating than not knowing what to do, and with multiple symptoms its easy to panic and overmedicate. Using maracyn2, melafix, pimafix and salt is overkill. Or "shotgun" medicating as we call it here. We've all done it, believe me. The combination of all of these meds turns the water into a toxic soup that just weakens your fish more and opens them up to further illnesses and parasites.

What kind of tester are you using? The reason I ask this is that strip testers can be inaccurate. The black spots indicate ammonia burn usually. Were your nitrates higher than 10 before you did a water change? A nitrate reading of 10 isn't really that high as a general rule.

My suggestion is to immediately do a 90-100% temp and ph matched water change. I'd use a filter with carbon to remove all of the medications. Many times pristine water does absolute miracles that medication will not. Many of fish illnesses stem from poor quality water.

If you have gravel substrate in the tank, give it a thorough cleaning. Gravel holds nasty bacs that can make your fish ill also.

After you get this done, then test your water. Get back to us with your water params, and we will all start at square one and help you diagnose what is wrong with your oranda. If you don't have a drop tester you can take a sample of your water to the lfs, but make sure they give you NUMBERS, not just that your water is "ok".

Good luck and hope to hear from you soon! :)

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Black marks can also be a response to burns from overdosed meds. You have too many treatments in your tank as Vickie says. And knowing which testkit you use would be helpful in determining the accuracy of your results. Maybe there has been a cycle bump along the way. Also, unless you have blacked out the tank, Maracyn will have been deactivated by the light.

Do you have a lot of gravel? Have you ever treated for flukes?

It may be that he needs med food for an internal infection, OR, it could be that he is suffereing from over medication. So, start by completely changing the water, as already suggested, and then let's see how he responds.

Update when you can :)

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Guest DAVK

Thankyou very much for the responses. I use an API drop test kit that I think is pretty accurate. I think you are right that I am overmedicating, its just that he has been sick for a month and showing no signs of improvement, I think I just came to the end of my rope. I will do as you suggested and do a major water test today and quit the medications, hopefully this will help. Is there anything I can to in the meantime to get him to eat? Thanks

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When he feels a little better, his appetite will return. You might try tempting him with a soft, unshelled pea by holding it in your hand close to his mouth, or a small mashed piece of banana.

We all understand how easy it is to overmedicate. I think the large water change may perk him up a little.

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Tried to give an update yesterday but i guess the site was down. I took your advice and did an imediate 80% water change and re introduced carbon to help remove any leftover medication. My water perameters are as follows:

amonia-oppm

PH- 8.0

nitrite-0ppm

nitrate-10ppm

I removed all plants and rocks and pushed all the gravel to one side so he is not lying on the gravel all day. I think since he was on the bottom all day it was irritating his belly so he is on bare glass for now. He seems to be a little more active today and I even got him to eat a pea which is probably a good sign since he has'nt eaten anything in 3-4 weeks. It might be a fluke though because I had to put it in his mouth. Still has black marks on his jaw and wen not sure what that is and his tail seems to be healing.

I guess its just wait and see for now, hopefully he will eat something tonite. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated as I am not really sure where to go from here.

Thank again for your help-

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Well, got up this morning and Todd looks to be doing worse. He's just lying on his side and floating around the bottom. Tested the water and the perams have not changed from yesterday. I'm not sure how to put this delicately but I did notice he has something on his butt like a hemeroid or something. It's looks like some kind of blockage or something ,not red or irritated, just white. All other symptoms look about the same, any ideas?

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Is it an ulcer or lump- is it soft or hard, how big is it in mms? Is it blocking his anal vent so he cant pass waste out? This would certainly curb his appetite and probably stop him eating in time. I agree the black is prob. from over medicating. Any other symptoms at all may help us get a better picture..did you add anything new to your tank or do anything differently prior to his getting sick?

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Hi Trinket, It looks like a small blockage about 3mm, I dont think that it is an ulcer because there is no redness it is just a white lump, but I do think that it is blocking. Prior to getting sick (about a month ago) I lost my other oranda, with the same symptoms but she was a female and I thought that she was egg-bound. She did not have the black areas or any kind of infection. It was very sad because within 2 days of showing symptoms she died, way too fast for me to figure out what was going on. If it is some kind of blockage what do I do clear out his system?

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You could clear out any regular salt left in there, along with all meds and add epsom (1/4 teaspoon to 10 gallons =1 teaspoon in your 40). It helps purge the fish and keep offering the mushed peas. I'd really like to see a pic of the lump. If thats not poss, is it possible for you to find a pic that looks similar from the internet? Im wondering if its a pus filled boil type lesion or a papilloma type thing or what...it would help determine what kind of treatment is best.

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I think you can drag into a reply the IMG from a pic hosted at for example photobucket.com.

Epsom is epsom salt/magnesium sulfate. It has a laxative effect, but you only need a very tiny amount. I'm reluctant to recommend anything else till we know more about the type of lump. In another thread you talked about slimey strings coming off the fish (slimecoat) - can you see this now?

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http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r404/dkrips/DSCF1421.jpg

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r404/dkrips/DSCF1426.jpg

I opened a photobucket account, took me a while to figure it out, hope the links work. His slime coat is extra slimmey like it is shedding. My PH has been running a little higher than normal lately and so have my nitrates probably due to the medicating.

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Goodness hes a very beautiful huge fish.

Are you sure thats black? You know I think that might be a darkened red, internal bleeding? It can look very dark.

The anal vent blockage is weird. I have never seen anything quite like that. I would take a guess at something internalised because of the very red fins+ bottom sitting.

There's no dropsy yet-good. I think you need some antibiotics in the water since hes not eating but not Maracyn 2 which is not good with bleeding. I think you should try a sulfa combination antibiotic like Triple Sulfa (by Aquarium pharm) or Maracyn PLUS by Mardel. Very effective against motile aeromonad infections that present with similar symptoms to this. Maracyn Plus contains sulfadimidine used in world war 11 for wound healing and also trimethoprim which is an activator that increases absorbancy of the meds.

You need to act fast. Either of these meds can be used with a teaspoon of epsom salt. If its the right antibiotic and I think it is the best for him, he should get back his appetite and food will hopefully push out the vent blockage.

The sulfa meds are especially effective at high pH like you say your is. Dont change that.

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My lord that is one huge and beautiful boy!! :o:heart

We're all pulling for you both DAVK! Just keep in touch and Trinket will figure out how to help you both. Crossing my fingers!!

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Thanks all for your support. Todd is my first goldfish and I have had him for two years so he is very important to me. Other people have said to me that he is very large but I was'nt sure how big orandas are suppose to get. I am going to run down to the store and get the meds you suggested and will keep everyone updated. Thanks again-

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Here's an update on Todd- had to go to 5 different places but finally found the triple sulfa. Removed the carbon and did the first dose. Water perams are the same. His condition looks to be about the same maybe a little worse. Definate signs of septicemia which the antibiotics should help with. He is now just floating around the bottom favoring his left side and curled up a little. Been trying to feed him mushed up peas but he absolutely refuses to eat, he will hold it in his mouth for a minute then eventually spit it out. Hav'nt noticed any other symtoms or sores on his body but his wen looks to be a little shrunken? Not sure if that means anything, maybe from not eating for so long. I'll give an update if anything changes, wish him luck! Thanks-

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Fingers crossed DAVK. The curled up shape is not good I have to say but where theres a will theres hope. The trouble with internal septic diseases is that unless you catch them early on with medicated food which gets right inside to the problem -all we have is water born meds and these take a little time to work meanwhile the fish is getting weaker from lack of nutrition. Anyway, Todd's a huge fish and must surely have plenty of immune reserve and strength to fight this so all I can say is hang in there with him, keep the water perfect and take heart in the fact that this antibiotic I believe is the best and most appropriate for him. Well done finding it.

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Trinket, thanks so much for the reply. Finished the initial round of triple sulfa that I started on Friday and Todd is showing little signs of improvement. The red streaks on his fins and tail seem to be getting worse and his slime coat is still shedding. It pains me to see him suffer and I wonder how much longer I should keep trying to save him. You mentioned using medicated food, I've never seen any at the fish store. Do you recommend a specific brand and if so where can I find it? I'm not really sure if it would work anyway since he refuses to eat. I did manage to feed him a couple of oranda gold pellets by hand but it is very difficult because he keeps spitting them out and I worry that I am causing him more harm than good by stressing him out. I am going to try another round of antibiotic along with daily water changes. Thankyou very much for your help and I will keep you updated.

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Oh ..this is disappointing news. I had hoped he would improve..have you checked all water levels in case you had a cycle bump with the previous Maracyn and how are your nitrates- they really must be as low as possible with these kind of red fins.

If all water params are good, finish the course of meds as directed. You say his slime coat is shedding..how is the pH? Is it possible it has plunged down with the meds- these can be acidic.

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Oh gosh DAVK, I was sure hoping Todd would improve quickly. He is a huge and beautiful oranda and we are all keeping our fingers crossed for you both. Sometimes fish get a little worse before they get better. Hopefully he has enough fight left in him to beat this!

:goodluck

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Trinket-vickielm, starting a second round of triple sulfa, having a difficult time keeping my nitrates down for some reason but have been doing daily water changes of 80%. PH has been holding steady at 7.8-8.0. Todd looks about the same, hoping the antobiotic will kick in soon. Thanks-

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High nitrates render meds useless. Please, please keep at those water changes to get those under 20. Under 10 if you possibly can (add new filter floss on top of old and rinse filter pipes out in old tank water to clear some backlog of nitrates). Rooting for Todd. :goodluck

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