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Limp Fins, Red Streaks, Missing Scales


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ammonia 0-.25 this am

Nitrite 0

nitrate 10

ph 7.4 it is always 7.4

7.4 out of tap

drops

50 gal tank

several months

in tank filter and emperor 400

every 5 days 30% then 65%

7 fish (hence the more frequent water changes)

amquel + novaqua

no meds

no new fish

feed...peas, brine shrimp, progold, salad supreme (not all at one time)

no ich. treated for flukes, ich, etc, etc.

my two oranda have red streaks in their tail fins, limp top fin, missing scales (not sure if getting stuck in too small of holes), no fungus, they always eat!!!!

we have treated them for everything.

i change the water and clean ornaments. scrub brown algae once every two weeks, my black moore has sbd, since more often than not he is swimming upside down, but the peas in the am seem to help. none of the other fish are showing symptoms

einstein, my orange oranda has deep red circle (looks like a black eye) under one of her eyes and maybe the same deep red coloring under her mouth...curling tail fins with red streaks and looks like she is missing some scales..she has been know to try and squeeze through tight places at times. Artemis my red cap has red streaks...but she has white fins and I think they have not gotten worse...but maybe a few less scales than normal.

Esteban, upside down floaty guy...getting more gold than black (black moore).

other fish are fine....telescope, two shubies, and fan tail. NO signs of anything but crazy active fish.

They are all very active and seem fine other than streaking (which has actually been there awhile.) I am more worried about the red thing under einsteins eye and mouth. Any ideas?

Normally when the nitrates get to 10 it is time for a water change. Tomorrow morning, first thing!

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I'm not a moderator, and they will be able to more specifically address your question, but for now, I'll add my two cents.

With an ammonia AND nitrate reading, I question that you had some sort of cycle crash. But, regardless, nitrates shouldn't be allowed to get over 5, so constantly allowing your nitrates to get to 10 before you do a water change isn't good and when you have ammonia with it just adds to the water quality problems, especially when you have an overcrowded tank that sounds like it might be underfiltered.

Each goldfish needs a minimum of 10 gallons of water per fish and your shubunkins need 20 gallons of water per fish. A 30% water change every 5 days isn't going to be enough to handle 7 fish in a 50 gallon tank. You should be doing about an 80% water change that often. Also, goldfish need a filter that moves 10 times the water as the size of the tank. And this is for a properly stocked tank. Overstocked is going to require more filtration. You say you have an "in tank filter" and an emperor 400. How many gallons does the "in tank filter" move?

You mention peas in the a.m. Does this mean you feed your fish twice a day? Goldfish only need to be fed once a day with a fast one day a week and in an overcrowded tank, this is especially important.

When you have SBD, red streaks in tail fins, clamped dorsal fins, etc., this is a sign of poor water quality. It is good that they have a good appetite still though as that means that you have a much better chance of correcting the problems and getting them back to a healthy place.

You said that you "have treated them for everything." Does this mean with meds? If you treat with the incorrect medication, you may be doing more harm than good.

One remedy for your water quality problem would be to get a 40 gallon tank for your two shubunkins. They really shouldn't be kept with fancies anyway and separating them would help solve your water quality issues as well as feeding issues. 4 fancies in a 50 gallon is perfect and the water changes and water quality issues would be so much easier.

Edited by lynda441
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hmmmm...so you are saying "I" am killing my fish as usual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought I was told 10 nitrates max...I change my H2O and it rarely gets to 10 nitrates. I was out of town since Wednesday, it is now Monday...5 day spread.

So nitrates need to be at 5, well22, daily 60% water changes or what? Just tell me what to do to save my fish. I am tired of crying!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please???????????

Everyone makes fun of me because I talk about my fish like they are the only kids I have...they are!!!

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We understand. You are in the right place for all caring fish parents!

The nitrates are fine at 10.

I also wonder though if you are having some cycle bumps. I know your fish had ich and flukes a while back and you dealt with that, has the tank cycle bounced back all-right? Over cleaning can also bump a cycle that is not strong. It would definitely be a good idea to monitor your tank for one week very closely to see where you are with

your cycle. Since your fish are behaving normally this would be the place to start.

Its very likely that your beneficial bacteria colony is insufficient to cope with the amount of waste produced by all the fish and a third extra filter packed with media and providing extra surface splash would help enormously. In my 55 gallon I have 4 filters running. Its best to place them strategically so the water is filtered in different areas, not all on one side. Then you can be sure there are no stagnant areas of water that may accumulate bacteria faster.

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I was very suprised to have any ammonia since I haven't had any since the tank cycled. In my emperor 400 I have two bio wheels and 2 bio plates. I do have build up of waste when I vacuum underneath my filters. The emperor takes up half the tank and the in tank only a quarter...on top of that I have a uv filter from goldfish world since I was experiencing serious blooms nad could barely find my fish.

Cycle bumps...when I clean my tank I am taking out too much nitrates? Or cleaning too much? It is just the brown algae overtakes the entire tank! I used to have pretty green algae....there is only a little in the tank and gets eaten almost immediately!

So I should check my levels daily for a week or so instead of every 2-3 days? Will too high nitrates do the streaking/floating?

The end of September we are moving from the too small one bedroom, no room to move apartment to a house! Then I can get another tank set up. I have my 20 gall that I started with but no room to put in anywhere. I would really like to get a pleco in the tank to eat the algae...but too many fish and I don't have a quarantene tank set up....I do not want to go through the ich, flukes, whatever else debugging my tank again!

Thanks Trinket! Let me know if "I got it" when you get a chance!

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Hi, sorry you are having trouble with your tank and your fish.

Before you get a pleco, please see my recent thread about trouble that I've had with a bristlenose pleco:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=70866

Good luck!

PS -- I think that keeping nitrate below 5.0 is an unrealistic goal for most tanks. As long as you keep it below 20 your fish should be fine. But I agree with Lynda and Trinket that your major problem is too many fish and too little filtration.

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Cycle bumps...when I clean my tank I am taking out too much nitrates? Or cleaning too much? It is just the brown algae overtakes the entire tank! I used to have pretty green algae....there is only a little in the tank and gets eaten almost immediately!

So I should check my levels daily for a week or so instead of every 2-3 days? Will too high nitrates do the streaking/floating?

The end of September we are moving from the too small one bedroom, no room to move apartment to a house! Then I can get another tank set up. I have my 20 gall that I started with but no room to put in anywhere. I would really like to get a pleco in the tank to eat the algae...but too many fish and I don't have a quarantene tank set up....I do not want to go through the ich, flukes, whatever else debugging my tank again!

Thanks Trinket! Let me know if "I got it" when you get a chance!

Sorry for any scare! I just tend to be overprotective! lol! :sorry:: If you had a cycle bump/crash, it's because some of beneficial bacteria was removed or killed. Possibly from overcleaning, but it was just an accident, so you just need to weather out the recycle and keep a close eye on things.

As odd as this may sound the way to get rid of algae is to allow it to remain. Algae is the first primitive life form that will grow in an aquatic environment. Once it is established, its growth will slow and/or stop and allow for other higher forms of plant life to begin to grow. This is just the innate nature of water. If you remove all the algae, the aquatic environment knows this and will continually try again and again to regrow the algae to reestablish a stable environment. So, if you leave a little bit of algae on a decoration or rock or some other item in your tank, you will eventually see the algae growth slow down remarkably. I have brown algae. It's ugly. I'd rather have green!, but my apartment is in a garden type setting with lots of trees and, consequently, my apartment is rather dark. It's my understanding that brown algae grows in lower light while green algae grows in high light. So, if you can adjust your lighting somehow, you may get your green algae again. But, the best thing is, it's a tasty treat for your goldies. I've seen my babies just chowing down on the algae in my tank. It may be ugly, but, it's actually a good thing.

This is what I tell everyone who is considering a bottom feeder. Get one because you like them, not because you want a cleaning tool. They still need to be calculated into the water volume and they usually get very big and need lots of room. And, the thing is, they poop too. And they poop more than what they clean up.

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Very cool thanks for the input. I am wondering if I have a bully fish causing all the stress????? The kiddos have red streaks, but can this be caused by stress. If you gross out easily don't read

One of my Shubies is stalking the poop of the other fish. I mean she physically bumps and prods to get to their poop to eat. Is this normal? Is the fish very hungry and I am not feeding enough? I think he may be causing the missing scales and if the stress causes red streaks.....well the question is answered. However what do I do in the meantime?

As soon as I move I will get a tank for the shubies alone. Yikes, granted I would like them to move a bit sooner, but not enough room.

Should I set up the 20gal and leave the poor guy alone with transferred bb until we move or just watch them????

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Lynda, by the way thanks. I just am an over achiever when it comes to anything, especially my babies and I tend to freak out if I did something bad! It is in my nature and completely unavoidable! My kids, well they are what I have in my life and are VERY important. So after my beginning screw up of killing all my little brothers fish with ignorance I am a little sensitive! You didn't know, but truly thank you for speaking out. It is appreciated!

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Lynda, by the way thanks. I just am an over achiever when it comes to anything, especially my babies and I tend to freak out if I did something bad! It is in my nature and completely unavoidable! My kids, well they are what I have in my life and are VERY important. So after my beginning screw up of killing all my little brothers fish with ignorance I am a little sensitive! You didn't know, but truly thank you for speaking out. It is appreciated!

Ah... we have all been there. My freezer is full of poor little goldies that I have murdered out of ignorance. Yes, I freeze and keep my dead babies! I do intend on doing something with them, but don't know what yet and that's another story anyway.

I had a sarasa comet that was just very sensitive by nature. She lived for years without any health problems at all, but after every single water change she would get red streaks in her tail. The streaks would go away in a day or so, but then, come next water change, she'd streak all over again. So, streaking can just simply be stress that isn't related to water quality.

As far as setting up your 20 gallon, it's still 2 1/2 months before your move, so on one hand it would be good because you could more specifically treat your fish, but the tank is going to be uncycled, which means you have to do daily 75-90% water changes. But, if you did set up your 20 gallon, you should probably put both Einstein and Esteban in there as they are the ones having the problems. This would lighten up the overload issue quite a bit and just by doing that and controlling very carefully the water quality in the 20 gallon, might be all that is needed to bring Einstein and Esteban around.

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