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Swim Bladder Issues.


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[*]Test Results for the Following: Don't know...I had the water tested a few days ago and was told it was good.

Ammonia Level?

Nitrite Level?

Nitrate level?

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?

Ph Level (KH/GH) out of the Tap?

Brand of test-kit used? (strips or drops?)

[*]Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 10 gallon, two weeks

[*]What is the name and size of the filter/s? 5-15 Whisper Power filter

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 25-40% twice a week

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 1/2 inch goldfish

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Dechlorinater and slimecoat

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Add any new fish to the tank?no

[*]What do you feed your fish?soaked flakes, brine, veggies, fruit

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as

"grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? One brighter orange area

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating,ect..? Floating and flipping upside down

Thanks for helping. I am brand new to the world of goldfish and when I got the tank it waws really dirty and hot (it had a heater and six tropical fish, including a Chinese Algae Eater who kept sucking on her). I was able to exchange the tropicals for some supplies and the other fancy goldfish (this was before I knew about the ten gallon rule). I'm looking to upgrade in the next few months. I'm saving now.

It is a regular ten gallon with a Whisper power filter and an airstone. It has gravel, plastic plants and one live live plant.

The tank was established (though very dirty). I cleaned the gravel but left the filter dirty when I prepared the tank for the fish from the move. We emptied all but a quarter of the water and I ran the tank for twenty-four hours before putting the fish back in. I have had the tank two weeks tommorrow and have done three water changes so far.

I haven't been able to buy a water testing kit, but I have had the water tested twice (with liquid tests) and they all came out perfect according to the LFS. I have been changing twenty-five to forty percent of the water twice a week and I just did a water change last night. I use a gravel vaccum to clean.

My Pearlscale just started floating today (I did a water change yesterday) She is still eating, but is clearly having a problem floating properly. She can right herself when she flips, but she is flipping. I fasted her Saturday (not because I saw anything, but because I read it was good to do) and then fed peas Sunday.

I'm wondering if I should fast her or only fed her peas? Should I do another water change and add salt? Is it possible it is flukes? I'm getting worried. Please help.

Thanks!

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More information from Amy.

I just had the water checked tonight. The amonia and nitrates (if I have that right) were perfect. The PH is 7. I was told to try aquarium salt for freshwater fish and Jungle Parasite Clear tablets just in case it is flukes. I guess I am going to try that tonight and hope for the best.

My other fish keeeps followin her around looking worried. I'll keep checking back in case anyone checks this.

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Hi! I wish I could be of a little bit more help to you but I am very new to this site myself and unfortunatly not really prepared to offer any sort of REAL solid advice. Normally Trinket or Pixie would be with you shortly but I know it's been a busy week for both of them and they've been online much less than ususual.. Hopefully someone will be online shortly that can help out.

In the meantime, the only thing I can thing of is to pass along a few of the recommendations I've been given in the last few months since I've come to this board.

If it all possible, it would be great to have your water tested again, and this time try to get actual numbers. A lot of times when you take the water to a store to be tested they will tell you that the water is "perfect" or "okay" when in fact there is something going on there that may be very important to your fishes health. If you COULD afford your own drop test kit that would be even better! I like the API drop test kit, and a lot of people on this board use that. Having specific numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph will be soo important in determining the problem once a moderator or member with experience shows up. For example, before I got my own drop test kit, and before I came to Koko's, I was told one time that my water was "perfect". I did have them write down the numbers though. After I found this site I went back and looked at my paper with my "perfect" water conditions. It had nitrates at 80, and most people on here try to keep their nitrates below 20, or even 10. 40 is considered the highest, and high nitrate levels can cause fish to flipover. So in my case, my perfect water was not so perfect after all. That may or may not be the case with you, but it would really help rule things out.

Other than that there's not much advice I can give other than to hang in there and wait for someone to come along. This is a hard time to find someone online, but within a few hours there is a good chance Trinket may pop on. Good luck getting everything straightened out and I hope your fish recovers!! : )

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Thanks. A test kit is on my list as soon as I get paid. I do agree that they could be a bit more helpful at the LFS with giving actual numbers. I'm a bit nervous to add the aquarium salt. My fish are such pigs that I am afraid they might try to eat it.

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Fish won't eat salt if its well dissolved (see link in my sig).

I strongly recommend you dont add any meds to your tank until you get yourself a drop test kit as CountryLovah suggests above. Stores sometimes dont even bother checking the water and say its perfect, saves them time and money and chances are you'll be back to buy more fish when the fish die. Sorry, but business is business and we cannot rely on petstore staff for this kind of life and death important info.

Flipping can be caused by nitrites as low as 1 PPM in sensitive fish. If your cycle had a bump you could be seeing nitrites. Nitrates are probably excessive in so small an established tank. Nitrates are notorious for causing flipping.

Water check first. Always.

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You can dissolve the salt in a small cup of treated water prior to adding it to the tank. That way, fish won't mistake it for food. :)

EDIT: Oops, sorry Imogen, we must have posted at the same time.

Edited by Desiree
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Thanks. Water test kit first. I am getting a check Wednesday. I will try to take another sample to a store and get actual numbers. I watched him do the test and watched the colors turn, but it doesn't really mean anything to me.

Will she make it while I wait? I'm very nervous.

The aquarium salt I bought is API Aquarium Salt for freshwater fish. It says on the back that it will not evaporate and is not filtered out. Hopefully it will disolve in some aged water. I'm working on that now. It says to add two rounded tablespoons for ten gallons.

I did buy a new fish and not quarentine it. I have the two fancies and didn't know you should seperate them. He has been flashing some and they both did a shimmy dance one day after a water change. Some people suggested it could be flukes which is why I thought I should treat for that. What do you guys think?

Thanks...I'm going to be up allnight worrying.

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If one of the fish is new that is a whole different story. If you added him to the main tank you will need to treat the whole tank with the PC tabs you bought plus the salt yes. Take a slow read of the link in my siggy on how to salt. Your fish can wait 10 minutes while you get yourself organised.

*Desiree- no probs!

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Frustrating waiting for a check!!! : ) In the meantime yes, it would be excellent to take the water back to the store and ask them for actual numbers. Hopefully you will get someone nice, and if not, well too bad and just be pushy if need be : ) The numbers are soo important.

The link in Trinkets signature is exactly how I've salted in the past. I've had to do it for a fish with Ich and now I just completed salting in two QT tanks. Like you, I had NO idea that fish needed to be seperated! I just bought them, and plopped them in.. I used API aquarium salt. There are other salts, some cheaper, but that one is fine. I am pretty sure the worst part about that salt is that it's expensive! : )

If you start out by mixing one teaspoon per gallon of water in your tank, that will equal a solution of 0.1% salt. When I salted, I did as the link said and increased it in 12 hour increments. SO 12 hours later I added another 1 teaspoon per gallon, which brought it to a solution of 0.2%. Then 12 hours LATER I added another 1 teaspoon per gallon, which brought it to a solution of 0.3%. Then the important thing is when you do water changes you have to replace the salt so that the level stays the same. Basically for every gallon of water you remove, you will want to add back in 3 teaspoons of salt. (Or 1 Tablespoon to make it easier). It's really helpful to keep a log tracking the amount of salt you add in, and the amount of water you remove, etc. I did that and it came in handy today in fact.

When I mix the salt I take a plastic cup that I use just for fish stuff and use some tank water, then add the salt. Then I just use a plastic spoon (I also keep one just for fish stuff) and mix mix mix. At times I will pour out a little of the dissolved solution and then refill and keep mixing til it's all gone. At first it looks like it's going to take forever but it's not so bad!!!

***Edit** Oops posted as the same time as you Trinket.. Basically I wrote a summary of the salt link in Trinkets sig.. : )

I've got more to write but I'll post this part for now LOL

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Thanks so much--both of you! I am disolving a PC in some water to add right now. Should I just do one treatment or two courses? I just added it and noticed they are both rubbing against the gravel a bit. And she (Tangerine) has gone upside a few times, but has righted herself.

I added the salt before I got the replies. I followed the directions and added two rounded TBS. which is roughly 7 tsps. Should I add a bit extra on the next round?

I have two peas defrosting for them as well.

I am so embarressed that I didn't know to seperate the new guy. I was very careful to float his bag for a long time, but I just didn't know better. I guess that is also why I have two fancies in a ten gallon and they have already grown in a week! I'm looking to upgrade as soon as we can afford it.

I have flake food which I feed with veggies and brine. I do soak it after learning that from this site and I wanted to get some pellets but every kind I find says they are floating. If I can cure her of this should I try to turn my flakes into a gel food for safety? I don't want to feed her something that will cause her more problems.

Thanks again!

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Amy I just read your post in my thread. Thanks. I understand COMPLETELY how you feel... Wow you remind me of myself. I've noticed you lately asking lots of questions (in a good way) and trying to get everything "just right". And when you say you are going to be up all night worrying.. well let's just say I've had quite a few of those nights myself. It's like you can't even think of anything else, and just want to be making sure you are doing everything you possibly can!!!!!

I also know exactly how you feel when you say your husband makes fun of you for caring so much.. My boyfriend laughs about it, because he just can't understand why I care so much about fish. He's come around a LOT though recently. He's started to understand. I am very attached to my fish, as most of the members here are. Especially my goldies... I've got a dog, two cats, a new rabbit, a new hermit crab, 3 goldies, 2 bettas and 1 tropical that was my boyfriends sister's and she got sick of water changes. And an 8year old daughter.. And that doesn't change how much you care when the fish are sick. I'm sitting here up all night just like you making sure things are running smoothly..

I hope you don't mind my "step by step" instructions. When I first came on here, there were so many little things that I wondered about and I am a very big fan of all the little details.. Sometimes there are so many threads on this board that it's easy to miss something, so I am just trying to help you in the way that I like to be helped. Not trying to repeat the same information over and over again or anything : )

Trinket's awesome. Her advice (combined with many other members of this board of course) has helped me many times in the last few months. She's helped me through Ich, Flukes, Anchor Worm and now... well SOMETHING!!!! I'm trying to pass along the information I've learned from everyone else the best I can especially when I am online late at night and no one else is, but it's always best to hear it from one of them : )

One thing that I noticed with my fish with Flukes. I used something called PraziPro. If you look on the PC tabs Praziquantel is an ingredient in those). There are a few things you can buy for Prazi but I noticed having a hard time finding it unless it was online, that's why the PC tabs are good because you can find them at most stores. I did end up ordering PraziPro from GoldfishConnection.com and I am very pleased I did. --just for future reference--- Anyway, the thing I noticed was that my fish seemed to get worse right after I added the prazi. I flipped out and asked Trinket what was wrong and she reassured me that that was very possible for a fish to seem worse at first, then improve after a bit. That was exactly how it happened in my case. She was soo soo bad, then within a few hours was SOOO much better. Like a different fish.

That being said, sometimes fish sometimes do have a negative response to a medication so you have to watch closely. It's so tricky.

***Edit*** I just saw you wrote again and now I have something else to say lol I'll be back : )

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Do NOT be embarrased!!!! I felt just like you did... and most every single person on here talked to me and told me that they learned what they learned the SAME exact way.. Running into a problem, finding this board, and learning from experience. You're doing soooo much better than most people.. You came on here VERY quickly, and have been trying SOO hard to learn everything. It's great to see. I actually spent a good 2 years caring for my goldfish improperly before even coming to this board. I did what the pet store told me to do, and I didn't think to double check the information. It's nothing to be embarrassed about at all.. It's just great that you are here now!

As for the amount of salt that you added, it's not really a major concern at all... As long as you know exactly what you put in then yes, you can go ahead and just make up for it. Let's see if, you added in 7 teaspoons so far, then when you add the next amount of salt in you could add in 13 teaspoons and you would make it an even 0.2%.

I'm not exactly sure what the dosing instructions are for the PC Tabs so you will want to wait for somebody else's advice on that one..Trinket recently informed me of the dosing for the PraziPro. I am not sure if it would be the same or not, since there are other medications in the PC Tabs. I am 99.9% certain (I don't wanna say anything with 100%) that you will need more than one dose though. Let me see if I can find the post where Trinket explained it to me.. I also can't help with the gel food. Haven't tried that at all yet. I started out with flakes, and then wound up ordering the ProGold from Goldfish Connection. Peas are always good :)

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Thanks so much for everything! I used to have a ton of fish in high school. I even had a baby octopus. My first tank (and what I thought was my learning tank) was a 75 gallon saltwater tank.

I can't believe how much I have forgotten and much more there is to learn. And I am totally like you. I start reading about something and am sure that my fish have it and freak out. My poor dog and cat have to go through that, too. Thank goodness, we don't have kids!

And I love step by step instructions. I feel like I need them for everything I do. I also need to take Trinket's advice and learn to trust my instincts in general...but not about fish yet! I'm here to learn and ask a million questions as well. Hopefully, I can get Tangerine through this and things will go much better.

Your list of problems made me nervous. You have gone through so much with your fish!

Thanks for every bit of advice and I'm happy to hear your fish seem back to good health.

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I'm glad you like the "step by step".. like I said you just seem like me so I hoped I wouldn't just be annoying haha

Here's a few of Trinkets quotes from my thread regarding the treatment of flukes, and use of Prazi. Again, I do not know if the PC Tabs would be dosed the same, but this will at least give you an idea of what will be recommended to you..

Regarding prazi dosage- it's very difficult to overdose. I use the following schedule, 4 days on and 3 days off X 4 for new fish. There are many variations. Bear in mind that prazi will knock off flukes immediately and what you are waiting for is the hatch out flukes.
You see -from what I understand- it only takes one dose to kill adult flukes not on the fish. 2 days tops to kill adult flukes ON the fish and then the extra one or two days to kill emerging larval forms. So either 3 or 4 days takes care of your first major "set "of flukes. Then..you can wait. Because hatching out of any inevitable eggs (totally untouched by the first round of prazi) will take 4,5 or 6 days depending on temperature and what particular strain of flukes you have.

So, since you cant kill the eggs anyway, you wait till they hatch and zap them as they hatch out. This can be on day 1 of hatching out or day 3. Are you with me? It means that the important thing with prazi is overall repeated dosage of about one month on and off. Some people choose to dose continuously but most prefer to have clean water breaks. This is why there are so many variants of recommended dosage.

The entire thread is here but its long and detailed (of course it is, it's mine lol)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=70364

I've been dosing every night, then doing a 50% water change (or more depending on ammonia, etc) then redosing. I'll do that 3 or 4 nights in a row, then do a 100% water change, and not add any meds for 2-3 days.. Sometimes I've still had to do a partial water change those days though, just because ammonia gets too high. That's why I am glad I got the drop test kit. Sometimes adding meds, salt to your tank can mess with the cycle, and it's always nice to know exactly what's going on in there : )

Don't be overly worried about all of my fish problems. First of all, I have really bad luck haha. Most of my problems came from having 6 fish in a 29 gallon tank with water changes that weren't even CLOSE to what I should have been doing. I also got 3 new fish all around the same time, and am quarentining 2 of them in one 10 gallon, and the other in a different 10 gallon. So it seems like I am having all these problems at once, but it's different problems with different fish. Which I wouldn't be doing if I had resisted my urges to buy three new fish in a small period of time. (Which I am glad I did though because I LOVE LOVE LOVE the three girls I got!) The good news is in my case the flukes were treated easily, as was the anchor worm. And now I am just waiting on miss Samantha. I am still unsure whats going on with her. She is swimming right now though! : )

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Okay. Well, I will do at least two treatments. The box says I can retreat in forty-eight hours with a 25% water change. That is probably to get the last of the newly hatched ones.

So, I'll keep my fingers crossed. She is still floating like crazy, but I'm hoping for the best in the morning. I'm headed to bed. Keep me posted on Samantha.

Thanks for holding my hand through my worries tonight:)

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You are in great hands, here, but I just thought I would stick my nose in for a few comments....

You have wisely been advised to watch the nitrates. Nitrates that many stores and even keepers of fish other than goldfish feel are "low enough" are NOT. Some goldfish will not show any problems. Others will flip. I, personally, think that fish that have been "poisoned" by exposure to high nitrItes at one time or another in their lives become much more sensitive to higher nitrAtes. REducing nitrates, though, will not always (actually rarely) right a fish in a short amount of time. Sometimes it takes a long time - many days or even weeks.

Sometimes water parameters can have a lot to do with the stability of a fish in the water - but parameters that are not in the normal considerations. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are essential to control. pH is EXTREMELY important. But I have found that gH and kH are just as important. Without the proper minerals in the water, over time (usually years) a goldfish will "go downhill" - weakening and often flipping. Keeping the water a bit on the harder side can help with fish like this - particularly females that are producing eggs - and using a lot of nutrients from the water.

Treating with Prazi - in PraziPro form, PondPrazi powder or Parasite Clear tablets is great. Between salt, Prazi and one other (not-applicable in this case) product, you can virtually destroy just about any parasite you may see in a goldy tank. But you need to realize that if you are dealing with flukes, the "fix" will, also, not be immediate. IF your fish have gill flukes, you need to realize that the flukes have most likely destroyed gill tissure. As the fluikes are killed with the Prazi, sometimes the fish is slightly shocked. Once the gills are free of parasites, it takes them weeks to months to regrow and heal. Time is the great healer in this case - time and good water.

Body flukes bury themselves into the fish in places other than the gills. These notorious parasites provide vectors into an otherwise healthy fish - introducing all kinds of other problems if the fish is immunitiy compromised in any fashion. Once again, PRazi is a life saver - but it takes time to heal injury.

Sometimes when you remove one problem, you uncover underlying problems that must be attended to..... so keep your eyes open. You seem to be a good observer - so GREAT!

I have two last comments.... some fish, for one reason or another may never right again. I have been doing more and more necropsies on fish that people bring to me (and a few of my own) that have flipped - and NO treatment I can devise will right them. I can keep the fish alive for...... a fish lifetime, but not righted. From talking to many around the world about such fish, I have come to the conclusion that a fair number of these fish, because of water problems or whatever, end up with a twisted swimbladder - something I have found in fish after fish after fish. Once twisted, there is no untwisting that can be done. I delicately reversed one in a particularly large Ryukin, tackiing it down so that it would not torque again. Unfortunately, that fish never righted either.... just lived on the bottom for the rest of his time. Sometimes no amount of love or care will cure such fish.

Finally: some fish that seem to have perpetual flipover problems - for whatever reason - but fish that CAN be rerighted only to flip again - can be helped by an all gel food diet. Far more than heavy greens in the diet, a well made gel food diet can go a looooong way to righting a fish permanently. I have one large Ranchu who flips if she is fed ANYTHING but gel. She flips within an hour of a meal - even just peas. Given gel for 2 days, she is solid in the water, again.

I hope we can help your little Pearlscale. They are such cuties. You are definately on the right track. :)

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Thanks for the support everyone. I am starting to suspect that Dropsy might be the cause. She looks a little worse for wear this morning and her scales are starting to slightly stick out. She is far more blaoted than usual (a bit hard to tell with a Pearlscale and her quick growth rate). The other fish seems totally fine and when she gets twisted upside he noses her until she rights herself again.

I added a second salt treatment. When I treated with the PC it said to remove the carbon filter from my power filter, so I did that and just left the sponge in. The water is pretty cloudy. Is that okay?

My plan is to add one more salt treatment tonight to get it to .03% and then to do a water change on Thursday morning. Adding more salt to get it back up to hospital rate. Then I will give it a few days and treat one more time with PC just to be safe. I have one Amazon Sword plant...will it survive the salt?

I can't help but wonder if some of this is trauma from her bad water before I got her. I don't know how long she was in there, but they never changed the water, just added more when it evaporated and were even more overstocked then I was. She has some black spots on her that I thought was her coloring but now think might be amonica burns. There is one tiny spot (about the size of a sewing needle head) that I don't think was there before, but I can't be too sure. The rest were all there before. Also, she was only being fed flake food for tropical fish. I've switched her to brine, veggies, fruit and lots of presoaked flakes (maybe the switch was too much for her?).

I have some work issues happening, but I went by my LFS right by work to test my water and they were closed but I will get it done tommorrow with numbers for everyone.

Until then, I will just keep my figures crossed and hope things will be okay. If she really starts to suffer I will need to think about the best option for her. She is still wanting to eat right now (I'm going to fast her for a few days). She still comes flying to the tank and wagging from side to side looking for a treat.

I see two things in my future if I can fix this problem. One is removing the gravel from the bottom. I like the look of it and am thinking about getting big rocks and removing the bottoms from my plastic plants and gluing them (with aquarium silicone) to the big rocks and creating one large rock and plant backdrop that I can just pick up and move. And then I will try to pot my live plant (anybody know how to do this?).

And I see a lot more water changes in my future. If anybody has any other suggestions I would love to hear them. I'm going to be computer-less in a few days:(

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Oh no Amy. I am sooo sorry to hear things are taking a turn for the worse!!!

At this point the problem is becoming WAY outta my league..I do know however that if it IS dropsy, then a different type of salt is required. In the case of Dropsy you are going to need Epsom salt, which you can find at any drug store.. At this point, I would suggest waiting before adding any that last dose of the aquarium salt. Someone like Daryl or Trinket can advise you best on this, but in my case I needed to actually do water changes to remove the aquarium salt then add Epsom.If you can, I would sit tight until one of them comes back to check on you. If i notice them online i will PM them and get you faster attention.

I know you're probably panicking but try to remain calm and hopefully we can get you some more help...

I know money is a problem right now, but if you are seeing pineconing, then the best thing right now is MetroMeds from Goldfish connection. Hang in there! : )

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Thanks. I just read about Epsom Salts and as soon as I head out of work I'm hitting the store to pick some up and make the switch. I want to do my best to try and help her. In the meantime hopefully someone else will offer some advice. Thanks again...

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Your welcome. Good luck with everything!! : ) I PMed Trinket and told her to look out for your thread so when she signs on I'm sure she'll be with you. I tried to PM Daryl as well but Miss Popularity's inbox was full LOL

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Thanks. How is Samantha doing?

I decided when I go home to remove as much of the aqaurium salt as possible. I pulled about 75% of the water. I also put the carbon part of my filter back in figuring the Parasite Clear was probably gone. Then as I was doing this I realized that the gravel still seemed kind of gross. So I thought, well maybe I should remove the gravel to speed things along. So I took out all of the gravel and I put my Sword Plant in a clean glass bowl with some of the gravel (to keep the good bacteria in there) and put this back in the tank. I washed my plastic plants with hot water and put them back. I also noticed my live plant seemed to be shedding (no brown spots though so I rinsed that, too).

I also added 1/4 tsp. Epsom salt.

She immediately seemd better. Her scales are definately sticking out and they aren't laying back down yet but she is not floating on the top and is staying more middled of the road. Of course, when she stops swimming she still bobs back up and flips over, but she is struggling a bit less.

I felt her belly and it does seem soft and saggy, but I don't really know what it is supposed to feel like. I did notice that she has kind of a gray patch right abour her anal fins. But I don't know if that is normal either.

The way the other fish keeps nudging her I would think she is going to lay eggs, but the way her gills are sticking out is not normal for sure. Her fins aren't clamped but she is swimming so frantically to keep from bobbing back up and to scavange off the newly empied bottom. She is shimmying around the plants some.

The other guy seems totally normal, even though he is in the tank with the Epsom salt. I didn't have a way to seperate them. She really looks pretty awful, though. I wonder when I should do another water change and if I should add more Epsom salt or not?

I talked to Rick about getting the medicated food, but he said it wouldn't get here in time. I wonder if the Jungle Antibacterial Food is worth a try?

I feel like all I can do is wait and see now.

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I only have a few seconds to type. My boyfriend Shane is waiting on me and I actually said I would be gone for "less than 5 minutes" and it's been 10. LOL I will probably be able to sign on later, and by then there is a good chance that someone else will have signed on that can guide you through that has had more experience. However, one thing I do know, and you may have even read on here, is that a medication that is recommended for Dropsy is Maracyn II... Now, I wouldn't recommend adding it before you know your EXACT water parameters. And even then, please wait for the go ahead from someone else. But it is something you might be able to locate tomorrow. I have found it in many stores around me, and they carry it at most of the chain stores.

I also have a fish in the tank with Epsom that is not experiencing any symptomsand she seems fine with it too. I hope everything improves for you. I will try to be back on later. Even if I can't offer much more help, just for moral support :)

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Hi there. The epsom should help the dropsy whatever caused it, high nitrates, egg impaction or bacteria. She may be full of eggs if she is being nudged in the belly- is she? Its always tricky with eggs because you dont want to start feeding med food if you just have a fish bloated up with eggs.

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