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Samantha Is Not Well. Pop Eye?


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[*]Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia Level? 0.5 (it's always this after water changes)

Nitrite Level? 0

Nitrate level? 10

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 8.2 (will double check KH & GH soon)

Ph Level (KH/GH) out of the Tap? Normally 7.8 (will retest soon along with KH & GH out of tap)

Brand of test-kit used? (strips or drops?) API Master Test Kit, API GH & KH Drop Test Kit

[*]Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 10 Gallon QT Tank, About 2 Months??

[*]What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguin 200 Bio-Wheel

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? Right now, since they are in QT and getting meds, 50%-100% every day for three days, then 2 days with no meds, no water changes unless ammonia gets higher than 0.5.

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? Two 2 inch (not including tail) Orandas

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime, 0.3% Salt (been at that level for over two weeks) Ammo Lock a few times but is not currently in the water

[*]Any medications added to the tank? Yes. Prazi (3 days on, 2 days off, etc) Currently on day 19. Dimilin (because of anchor worm on Miranda) (3 days on, 2 days off) Currently on day 19.

[*]Add any new fish to the tank? No

[*]What do you feed your fish? Pro-Gold, Peas

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as

"grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Black smudges on face and a couple on body, I believe her eyes are popping. Clamped fin at times

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating,ect..? Yes Bottom sitting, not active. Miranda nudges her to get her to move but she doesn't really want to. Still eating though!

I went to the beach for 2 days. It corresponded with the 2 days off of meds, so before I left I gave them a 100% water change. Samantha has very black fins and tail, and has since I bought her. They are getting darker so I took it as a good sign that she is now in better water and healing. When I came back from the beach she had the black marks on her face, where before she did not have any. While I was gone my mom said she was laying around a lot. The day after I got home I started noticing that her eyes MAY be protruding but it's hard to tell on her because she always has kinda poppy eyes, plus I am a bit paranoid after all the fish problems. I kept a close eye on her yesterday and she was still very unactive. Not completely unactive. She will swim occasionally, and she is still eating. But the rest of the time she lays in the corner. I cannot tell if I am imagining the pop-eye, or not SO I will post a photo of her when I got her and a photo now. I have metro-meds. My instinct is to give them to her, but I also know that once I do I must give them for 14 days, so I am going to wait until a mod gives me the go ahead. That way if the recommendation is different I won't have messed things up. If I don't hear back from anyone by the end of the day I am probably going to give her the metro-meds though because I don't want to risk waiting until she no longer wants to eat. While waiting I am going to do a 100% water change, and add back in only the salt and prime. That way there will be no other meds in the water. Then you guys can let me know whether to continue with prazi and dimilin. Or just the prazi or WHATEVER. Thanks. I can't believe another of my fishies is sick. Poor babies!

NOW:

SamanthaNow.jpg

BEFORE:

SamanthaOriginally.jpg

I will also try to get some clearer pics I just want to get this posted asap!

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Okay. Now the extra info.

KH=232.7

GH=322.2

Tap Water:

PH= Changes. Today it's 7.4

KH=196.9

GH=286.4

Temperature in tank: 77-78 No heater, just hot weather

I DO have a spare 5 gallon tank. It is not cycled. However, like if say Samantha needs Epsoms salt and Miranda should stay in the tank with regular salt, I could move Samantha in there. SO for now I will do what I said and change out the water in the 10 gallon and add back in only Prime and 0.3% salt. I will also get the 5 gallon prepared with temp matched water and only Prime just in case.

Here's a few more pictures. And a video:

SamanthaNow2.jpg

SamanthaNow3.jpg

Video: Right after the video was taken she did swim for about a minute. She is MOSTLY doing this, but is still occasionally moving. She has gotten considerably less active between last night and today.

th_MOV02118.jpg

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Hmmmm. I know I said I would wait until later but I am really starting to think I should give her the Metro Meds. Her breathing is looking a bit heavy and she is starting to look a bit skinny. As strange as it sounds considering I just said she looks skinny, I also think I may be seeing slight pineconing. I don't know at this point. Sometimes I feel like a fish hypochondriac. Then again, so far I've been correct. There really WAS something wrong with Sheldon, Angel And Miranda. And taking action with Angel and Miranda was the correct thing and helped them. She's behaving way to close to the way Sheldon did before he passed and that day I remember that within hours he went from being able to eat, to not wanting to touch food. I think I am going to have to go with my gut on this one and give Samantha the Metro Meds and hope that it was the right call. Trinket, you told me recently I need to trust myself more so I think that's what I am going to have to do. It could still be hours until someone gets on and that just may be too late. My stomach hurts because I am stressed wondering what to do. She's gotten worse in the last few hours. I won't give any to Miranda, just Samantha for now.

I just put Samantha in a bucket and fed her some Metro Meds. She's eating them. Thank goodness. I have already completed the 100% water change in the 10 gallon. I added the 0.3 % salt and Prime. I am going to set up the 5 gallon with 0.2% salt instead of 0.3%. That way I will already have started the process of decreasing the salt in case I need to start with the Epsom. That shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. I already have the water sitting out and temp matched. I've got three mesh bags filled with that Fluval Bio-Max in the 10 gallon along with two cartridges for the Penguin 200. I am going to take one of the bags and add it to the filter in the 5 gallon. Maybe it will be enough to get a cycle going in there. Wish me luck guys, I hope I am doing the right thing.........

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Oh gosh, another sick fish! It really does twist your stomach into knots, doesn't it?

I know what you're talking about with not wanting to overreact, but knowing from first-hand experience how fast things can go south. If you feel that you're seeing evidence of pineconing and/or pop-eye, then Metromeds would be the right medication. I think that you are right to go with your gut.

It is my guess that the black tips on Samantha's fins have been healing ammonia burns from the beginning. It is possible that she is a calico, but the rest of her coloration doesn't look like other calico fish that I've seen. The fact that she has ammonia-burned fins would suggest that she's been exposed to some unhealthy conditions in the past, which may have had a lasting impact on her gill function. This sets her up to have a more difficult time with any other less than perfect or stressful conditions for weeks or months as she heals.

During Pepper's illness Trinket helped me to understand how stressful certain things can be to fish, even things that we don't really think about like bright lights, extra noise, moving from a quarantine tank to a regular tank and back again, etc. If your spare tank is not cycled, I would err on the side of keeping her in the regular tank. She definitely doesn't need to be exposed to the additional stress of an uncycled tank unless it is absolutely necessary. When I put epsom salts in my big tank to treat Pepper my other fish didn't seem to mind it at all.

I hope everything turns out okay for Samantha. Fins crossed for you both.

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Thank you Kristen. I know it's a sad time for you with Pepper. Again, I am so sorry...

During Pepper's illness Trinket helped me to understand how stressful certain things can be to fish, even things that we don't really think about like bright lights, extra noise, moving from a quarantine tank to a regular tank and back again, etc. If your spare tank is not cycled, I would err on the side of keeping her in the regular tank

I do remember seeing that in your thread. Part of the reason I wanted to keep Samantha in a seperate tank was so that I could more easily keep Miranda from getting the Metro Meds and more easily make sure that Samantha is ONLY eating the metro meds. They are both due to be at 0.3% for another week or two as well, and I am pretty sure I was told not to use Epsom and regular salt at the same time.

That being said, your point about not stressing the fish out makes COMPLETE sense. I am very unsure where to keep her because of that very reason. I remember that you used a breeding net to keep the fish seperate in the same tank. That may be a good idea. It would make things easier to keep their food seperate, and give Samantha a place to rest, meanwhile keeping her in the tank she is used to, with Miranda, who honestly seems to comfort her. Samantha ate lots of pellets of Metro Meds. I hope I didn't over do it. I dropped like 12 of them in her bucket, and she just kept going. That's a good thing though. What is a good amount to feed when feeding a medicated food? I question whether the pineconing is my over active mind, but I do think her eyes are popped out for sure. I took an overhead picture of her in the bucket. I will post it. Maybe you guys can just tell me I am crazy : )

For the meantime I will place her back in the tank with Miranda. She has finished eating. I will still however prepare the 5 gallon tank with temp matched dechlorinated water should Trinket or one of the other mods come on and suggest I use that tank. I will go ahead and place a baggie of biomax in just to see what happens with the cycle. The good news is that her tank is in a back bedroom with little to no sound or disruptions. The room is very dark so I should be able to keep her nice and peaceful. I will also either use a piece of glass to divide the tank during feeding times, or get one of those breeding nets.

It really does twist your stomach into knots, doesn't it?

It really does!!! I'm literally in pain. It's not even just for my own fish. When I see other members with problems I feel it for them as well. When you wrote that Pepper didn't make it, I honestly teared up. You get to know people on here, and even their fish! It's just a sad thing.

It is my guess that the black tips on Samantha's fins have been healing ammonia burns from the beginning. It is possible that she is a calico, but the rest of her coloration doesn't look like other calico fish that I've seen

I agree. I do not think it's her coloring. Based on the locations of the black and the ways it is changing. I actually noticed that there was one spot on her that I believe you can see in the second picture that is gone in the first picture! I suppose that means it's healing, just maybe different spots are healing at different times. I sure hope so.

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You're doing well to keep everything under control, but this one is outta my league. I'm so sorry she's sick dear... just remember to do the full course of the anti-bac food and like Kristen said, try to reduce stress as much as possible.

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The breeding net worked really well for me. It enabled me to feed the medicated food to Pepper only and to keep track of whether or not she was pooping. It also provided a soft surface for her since she was laying on her side in the end. The only problem with it was if she didn't eat all her food right away all the other fish would come up from underneath and start bumping her around as they tried to get at the food in the net. So I had to be careful not to feed her more than she would eat right away.

I am not sure about how many pellets of MM to feed. I am not sure if you can overdose or not. I guess I would just feed her about the same quantity as you normally would. But I can understand you wanting to get as much medication into her now before she stops eating if she gets worse. Hopefully Trinket or Pixie can advise you soon.

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Well I remember seeing a net the other day at Wal mart. I almost bought it because of seeing you use it. But didn't. Shane is off to get one right now. Can't wait to see what he brings home. : ) I told him "CALL ME!". lol He was going out to get food anyway. Between him and his sister maybe they will bring home the right thing. Taylor is going with them. She's only 8 but smart. She'll probably get mommy the right thing LOL

But I can understand you wanting to get as much medication into her now before she stops eating if she gets worse.

EXACTLY. I want to make sure she gets enough, but I don't wanna over do it either. ALL of it's gone though. I am glad she ate it. She liked it. I just fed Miranda. Her food is almost gone. I'll give her a few more minutes then put Samantha back in.

Here are the pictures. One is of both of them earlier in the bucket when I did the 100% water change. The other is Samantha only about 10 minutes ago.

MirandaSamanthaInBucket.jpg

SamanthaInBucket.jpg

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Such a pretty fish :heart and Im so sorry she is out of sorts Sue. She does look sick with her clamped fins in that pic, although I cant see any pop-eye. You were right to start on the MMs if you notice any skinniness at all + the bottom sitting behavior + possible slight pineconing. Didn't Sheldon look very skinny later on too, I hope she hasn't got anything similar. Meanwhile, keep all stressors low and get the daily recommended dose of MMs into her. She is about 2 and a half inches yes? Thats about the size the pellet feeding recommendations are usually aimed at.

Do you have epsom salt?

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Trinket - I am glad you didn't notice popeye. It's hard with her. She really does have naturally POPPED eyes. She always has a slight white ring around her eyes. It just looks worse lately. The pineconing is also soo hard to tell. In some of the pics I think I see it, in some of the pics it looks normal. What do you think about the pics I posted from above?

Either way she ate the metromeds and call me crazy (and of couse knock on wood). She is ALREADY swimming around. I've heard talk of the metromeds being miracle food. But this quickly? I am not lying, I see a great change in her behavior in the last hour.

She is reminding me EXACTLY of SHELDON! This is what makes me nervous. He started out bottom sitting, then got a bit clamped, then VERY clamped. Then got a little skinny, then VERY skinny, then his eyes were protruding badly. Because I remember how quickly he got worse, this is why I wanted to start Samantha on the MetroMeds as soon as possible. Within hours he went from eating to not wanting to touch the food.

Yes I have the epsom, but like I said she is currently in 0.3% salt. When we talked last I'm think we agreed on a month QT at 0.3% salt the whole time, prazi (3 days on, 2 days off) for the duration of the month. They've also been getting the dimilin. Which I am confused about still..

QUESTIONS:

1) We went back and forth on whether it should be 2 weeks dimilin or 4 weeks dimilin. Which is it? So far I've been doing a 50% water change daily and giving them a dose dimilin each night for 3 days, then a 100% change and leaving them with 2 days off. Same with Prazi.

2) Right now they are on day 19 of both the dimilin and the prazi. Can those medications be given with MetroMeds?

3) Salt is at 0.3% Should I cut back on the regular salt gradually and once it's gone add epsom or just leave things as they are for tonight?

4) Yes she is about 2 1/2 inches without tail. How much is the daily recommended dosage? The bottle does not say.

Whew. OH she just chased Miranda! That's good! For the last few days Miranda has been doing all the chasing and playing.

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I dont know about the dosage for MMs perhaps someone else does. Its safe to use with prazi, salt and dimilin.

In answer to your other Qs:

1. No anchor worms have been present for some time. I think you had a very minor infestation and should quit the dimilin now.

2. Prazi you should stay the full month course.

3. Salt at 0.3% for one month is way long Sue. 2 weeks is plenty and 3 weeks is absolutely tops for salting.

I should change out the reg salt if thats been 2 weeks and add epsom.

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Joy thanks for that link. I remember reading that one, but it's funny how once a thread pertains to your situation you can go back and reread and gather all sorts of info that you missed the first time. Sounds VERY much like Samantha. She really did always have those. But like Jack said, I feel that the ring has gotten larger to some degree.. Her bottom sitting and skinniness still just scares me. But I do have Maracyn 2 on hand also! And like I said I do have the epsom, just waiting for a nice Trinket or Pixie or whoever response on those questions LOL. Since I already began the MetroMeds I will follow through on that 14 day course. I am glad she is already improving. It's insane. This is the most she has swam in days. I am just so happy and impressed. These metromeds are awesome!...

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Trinket thanks!!! Good I was thinking that I might be able to quit with the dimilin. That makes things so much easier.

Wow. I wonder how I got so confused about the salt!!! Glad I asked. Ya know, maybe I was confusing the fact that fish should remain in QT for a month with being SALTED for a month!!!! Either way, thank you for clearing that up for me. That also makes this 10 times easier. Since I just did the change today I will leave it for tonight then in the morning start decreasing the salt... Good new is, it's only day 19 so it hasn't quite been a full 3 weeks yet so I haven't totally overdone it.. Whew.... Sometimes I think I am asking stupid questions, then I am glad I asked them!!!!

Trinket your package is ready to be mailed I just have to get my butt to the post office : ) And off topic, but I saw you mention in another thread that you were having a rough couple of days...What's the matter?

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Thanks for asking sweetie. As a matter of fact I am trying to leave a marriage of 16 years. I am getting divorced, there is so much to get organised and I have so many things to think about I am a bit distracted here these days. Hopefully things will ease up when I find a place of our own to live, Ill take my 2 kids.

By the way did you know salt can cause blackening of fins? In fact any medication in prolonged use can. I once used salt at 0.3% for 3 weeks and a white fish turned completely grey black :o and I know it wasnt amm burn as I was checking params daily. Some fish are much more sensiyive and tends to be calicos and whites IME.

Hang in there. I have to go now but will check on you again soon :heart

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First about the fish. That's very interesting about the medications! Maybe now that the Dimilin has stopped, and that the salt can be lowered the spots will also go away. I had to jump the gun on this one but she is just doing so much better. I went down to check on her and she was so much more like herself. Trying to get attention, and the two of them were doing the thing they normally do where one will nudge the other and get underneath. Then the other will turn around and do it also. I just love these two. I am 100% keeping them in thr 29 gallon by themselves at this point. They just are perfect together and they don't need another fish possibly ruining their perfect little relationship. I know it's too early to tell if Samantha will recover but this signs look good.

Aww Imogen you must be going through so much right now. That's got to be causing so much stress for you. My mom and dad are going through a seperation and I know how difficult it can be. I hope everything turns out for you, and hang in there. If you ever need to just talk about life, not fish, please know I am there for you. (And I'm guessing about 10000 other people on this board would agree). Good luck with everything, and good luck finding a place for you and your family : )

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Well I just came in to check on Samantha and she is still swimming well. Thank goodness.

I searched for a post that would say how much food to give her. I found this one by koko for someone with a dropsy fish.

What you need to do asap

Get the temp up to 80F slowly, then if you havent use Epsom salt in the tank, I would since its almost a 10 gal tank about 3 teaspoons do it slowly over the next 24 hours :D

Keep doing the "Maracyn Two" if he starts to do labor breathing do a 40% water change before you add your daily dose of med :D then add it back in. Keep the med up as directed, if no improvement after the dose then switch to the "Maracyn" and do the same thing.

Once you get the Medicated food feed him two times a day about 5-10 pellets. Keep that up for 14 days. The food.

So I suppose I overdid it a little yesterday but doesn't sound like anything that would be a problem.

They did not have a breeding net at the store. And at this point she is actually active enough that I think that would be annoying to her. However, I am not sure how I want to go about feeding the Metromeds to JUST Samantha. I tried moving Miranda to a bucket, and feeding Samantha in the tank. But she just ignored the food. I gave it a while with NOTHING. So then I moved Samantha to the bucket and Miranda back in the tank. That seems to work better. She is in a smaller area and the bucket is white and the food is dark. She notices it more and ate some. She's eating SLOWLY today. She's not gobbling them down like yesterday but she IS eating them. I'm seeing poo. I just wonder if this is going to stress her out too much being moved to the bucket to be fed... Any suggestions?

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I think different fish have different degrees of tolerance for being handled and being moved. Certainly you don't want to cause her any unnecessary stress, but you also need her to eat. Will you have a chance to get out today and look at another store for the breeder net? With that you could just scoop her into it when it is time for her to eat and then gently dump her out when she is done. You wouldn't have to touch her or take her out of the water. I think that might be the best option.

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Thanks Kathy : ) I can always count on you as a great support system : )

Good idea Kristen. It's amazing how things just DON'T cross my mind. I'll go out today to a store and see what I can find. Either a breeding net or maybe even a tank divider. It's early so I am thinking about going to that one store I found that is REALLY good. It's a bit further but worth it. I was even thinking about looking for that stuff that was the equivelent of Bio-Spira. I forget who said it (might have been you even) on another thread. One and only bacteria? Sounds like something that would be useful considering I need to get my new tank up and running. I am hoping they might have it, as they carry a lot of things that I haven't seen in most stores, like prazi & dimilin.

I am also seriously considering using PP to disinfect my 29 gallon and start fresh. It just seems like I've been having sooo many issues in there. There were so many sick fish in that tank. What I would do just in case, is remove the filter media and place it in a bucket or rubbermaid and continue giving it ammonia. That way if something happened weird, and I just NEEDED that cycle, I wouldn't be completely screwed. It just seems like every fish that has gone into that tank has gotten sick and I wonder if there is just something nasty lurking in the water that I can't detect. I was already planning on using the PP to disinfect the new tank. (By the way I've learned that most likely it is a 38 gallon).

Another reason I want to nuke it and start over is because after learning on here, I see so many mistakes that I did wrong in the first few months with that tank. For example, I hardly EVER used the gravel syphon. I was just changing water with jugs, therefore all the gunk sat rotting away. Who knows what was growing down there. When I stirred it up finally it was a nasty mess. That scares me. The tank was cleary exposed to MANY sick fish (or caused many sick fish!) with many diseases. Like Ich, Flukes, Anchor Worm, and whatever Sheldon and Sumpin Else had. I know many things can die off without a host, but I am assuming that bad bacteria doesn't need a host to survive, just a food source? Am I right? On one hand, it's important to preserve a cycle. On the other hand, I would feel good knowing the fish had nice freash disease free tanks to move into. I believe they are all good in their QT tanks for the time being. The 10 gallon with the Orandas is cycled. Yes, 10 is small for 2 fish. But as a temporary thing I could easily maintain the tank with extra water changes. I'm used to daily changes right now, so even every OTHER day would feel like a break! : ) And it's not that they are such large fish that they seem cramped. And either way, they are going into the 38 gallon so it doesn't really MATTER what I do to the 29. It's not affecting the orandas. Then with Angel she is in a 10 by herself... The cycle is not dependable, but I AM! And I make sure to check her water every day. So I don't know what to do. Wow I really need counseling for help with decision making LMAO

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I think nuking that tank is a good idea. Here is Daryl's post about how to do that:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=41101

Yes, the bacteria is called One and Only by Dr. Tim's Aquatics. But once you have a cycled filter it is amazing how much easier it is to cycle another tank. Just move over some filter media and you have a big head start. The bacteria only have to multiply once to double the size of your biological filter. Even if it takes an extra week to get the tank up and running, it would be worth the peace of mind that you've killed all the evil nasties in the tank. Most parasites will eventually die out without a host, but bacteria just needs gunk to live off of practically indefinitely.

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You just saved me so much trouble!!! I remember that post and was about to go searching for it. That exact one!! I love you : )

Yes I know exactly what you mean about cycling a tank once you have one cycled. I did my 10 gallon in literally 2-3 days. I was sooo surprised... Unfortuantly right now the only material I would be able to use is the exact material that I am trying to clear of the nasties. But if I can nuke everything, once the cycles are going again and the fish are moved I will be able to disinfect the 10 gallons too and have them nice and clear too for new fish. Then I can use media from the newly cleaned cycled tanks to reestablish the cycles in there. Actually, or just wait until the tanks are needed. I mentioned this before but I am also going to keep my spare 5 gallon as a filter media tank. I havbe 2 spare 5 gallons actually. One I bought because it was teal and I thought someday I might want to keep a betta in it in my bedroom which has an ocean theme.. But I don't want more tanks right now so for now I am going to cycle it and keep the extra Whisper Internal Filters in it with extra filter media. I read about toothless doing that and it seems very smart.

An update on Samantha: Swimming well, no more clamping!!!! Much much MUCH more like her old self. I brought the salt down to 0.2% this morning. I am bringing it down to 0.1% right now (6 pm). Then around bedtime (maybe 2ish?) I will do a 100% water change, get out ALL the rest of the salt and add it some epsom. Is that too fast??? I could be wrong (you know how I always make assumptions and sometimes they are right, sometimes not). But I assume that raising salt needs to be done more slowly than lowering salt. Since fish have different salt level tolerances and you want to give them time to adjust. But I would think that since all goldfish are naturally used to salt free water, then going from 0.3% to 0 in about 18 hours would be okay.... Is that true?? If I am wrong, please correct me LOL

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Adding salt in 0.1% increments over 36 hours is done primarily to avoid shocking your biological filter. If you have an urgent need to get up to 0.3% salt (like a really bad case of ich) you can do it all at once but have to anticipate that it will probably slightly bump your cycle. Most fish are able to tolerate the switch without a problem (although smaller or sick fish might be more stressed by it). I have brought salt down quickly with large water changes (with no salt in the replacement water) a few times and not had a problem with either my fish or my filter.

BTW, how on earth do you manage going to bed at 2:00 am? I go to bed by 10:00 pm at the latest (although I was up later because I couldn't sleep with my husband out of town)!

Oh and I am so glad to hear that Samantha is better. Do you still think that her eyes look popped? Perhaps you don't need the epsom salts after all?

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