Jump to content

Chocolate Oranda With Bloody Fins


Guest hoangphan

Recommended Posts

Guest hoangphan

Ammonia:0

Nitrite:0

Nitrate:0

PH:7.4

Test Kit:API(drops)

Tank:55 gallons

Filters:Topfin 60; Penguin Emperor 400

Water Changes: Once to three times a week (10-20 gallons)

Fishes: 2 Red Ryukins; 2 Chocolate Orandas

Water Additives: Amquel+;API Algaefix

Water Conditioner:Aquarsafe

Food: Nutrafin Max

Fishes: All about a week or two old, added at same time

All the fishes seem to have a healthy apetite and are swimming around energetically. No other fishes seem to have any problems except for one Chocolate Oranda which seems to have lots of red streaks going through all fins. Fins do seem to be a bit frayed, and a few white specks are on the fin. Is this fin rot?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hello Hoanphan and welcome to Kokos!

You didn't say how long your tank has been set up, but ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings of 0 indicate an uncycled tank. Your fish is likely suffering from New Tank Syndrome. It will help a lot if you up your water changes to a larger amount, say 30-40 gallons every other day. I know this seems like a lot, but this is necessary to get your water safer for your fish. You have 2 excellent filters...just remember not to change the filter media. Also make sure the water is temp and ph matched as to not stress the fish any further.

Here is a link with the explanation of the cycle of the tank. It will help you out a lot.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

Good luck and keep up the water changes. It doesn't last forever. Let us know how your fish are doing, and feel free to ask any questions that you have. We're here to help. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

Actually, my tank has been setup for about a year and a half now so I don't believe it's new tank syndrome. I went through the cycling and such with my cichlids. Recently, I got another tank and decided to turn the 55 gallon into a goldfish aquarium, moving my cichlids else where. I try my best to keep nitrites and such at the safest possible range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Your ammonia and nitrites should always be 0. Thats the good thing. But the lack of nitrAtes is what indicates that your tank isn't cycled. If your tank has been successfully set up for over a year then for some reason you have possibly had a cycle crash.

Has anything different, such as medication, been added to your tank? Have you changed filters? You stated that you recently decided to turn the 55 into a goldie tank. How recently?

I noticed that you are using Algaefix. Is there a reason why you have decided to add this to your tank?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but the more info we have the better handle we can get on your fish's living conditions.

I apologize for not notiing in your post that you mentioned "white specks" on the fins. Do they look like grains of sugar or salt?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

The reason I have 0 Nitrates is because I use AmQuel+, which serves to remove Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, Chlorine, and Chloramines. As for the white specks, they must have been bubbles or something because this morning they were all gone. The reason that I am using Algaefix is because the aquarium is in my room next to a window, which I stupidly left open for...a week? Algae started growing so I have given, as of last night, two doses. The algae seems to be under control, no further growth has been noted. I did some research before coming to this site about the bloody streaks and found that it could be from lack of oxygen; however, I have a 48in bubble tube and a stone Dragon that also has an aerator in it, so I don't think Oxygen is the reason. The change from a cichlid tank to goldfish would be about four weeks now. Also, I just changed all my filters last night, but I left the BioWheel in the Emperor 400.

And, no problem about the questions! Just glad someone is helping me, thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

You need nitrates to cycle your tank. A mod, helper, or someone who can explain things better could use better wording, but as I understand (?) it, the nitrates are the result of getting through the final phase of cycling. Without going through the ammonia and nitrite cycle, you can't get nitrates. I'm sure the link I gave you explains it better, lol.

I don't know much about AlgaeFix, but I know its a good idea not to add anything to the tank that could be harmful to the fish. We often forget that anything we put into the water enters the fish's gills that they use to breathe. I wonder if your fish is reacting to the AlgaeFix? Adding any kind of meds to the water reduces the oxygen. You're not using a heater, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

I do have a heater. :yikes Shoot, I forgot about that after taking out my cichlids, think the bloody streaks are a result of stress from the, 78 degrees its been getting for two weeks? I forgot all about the heater. But as for the Nitrates, I only had some during the first month of my tank setup, after which the ppm slowly declined as I did water changes twice a week. Technically speaking, the tank has been setup for a year and a half, when i changed the cichlid tank into a goldfish aquarium, all I actually did was take out the cichlids and put goldfishes in place of them. And I had no idea that Algaefix could be bad for them...they really need to put warning labels and such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

The fact that you have no nitrates is a problem. Why don't you take a look at the diagrams we have on the page about cycling a tank? In an artificial ecosystem, like an aquarium, there is no natural process of removing nitrate from the water. Ammonia is converted to nitrite, which is converted to nitrate, which builds up in the water until removed. Amquel+ would not completely remove all of your nitrates from the water. Neither would removing 10-20gals once to three times weekly. After four weeks of having goldfish in the tank with your water changing schedule, I would expect to see nitrates in the 15-30ppm range.

The nitrate test is the most difficult API drop test to perform correctly. It has been known to happen before. I would DEFINITELY double-check to make sure you are doing the test correctly. I know it's a major pain, but you really DO need to shake the second solution for 30 secs prior to adding it to the test tube, and to shake the test tube for a full minute after adding both solutions.

Now, as for the red streaks in your oranda's tail fin: red streaks are typically a sign of stress. I don't think your heater would have caused too much of a problem-- my four fish are outside in a pond for the summer, and their water has been consistently above 75F for weeks due to the warm weather, and I have had no problem-- but it is possible.

I have several hypotheses:

a) Your fish are stressed from the warm water.

b) Your fish are suffering from a cycle crash.

c) Your fish are suffering from a pH crash which caused your cycle to crash.

d) Your fish are infected with flukes.

--You can test a) and b) easily by removing the heater and double-checking that you are performing the nitrate test correctly.

--You can test for c) by closely monitoring your pH-- is it fluctuating? What is the pH of your tap water? I recommend buying an API drop test for kH/gH. They are useful tests.

--As for d), did you quarantine these fish at all, or did they just go right in as the cichlids came out? There is a ubiquitous, nasty little parasite called flukes that almost every single pet store-bought fish comes home with. As a precaution, we recommend treating for flukes prophylactically, as the recommended medication is very mild. Salting to 0.3% and treating with a full course of Prazi (a.k.a. Prazi-Q, praziquantel, PraziPro) will take care of flukes.

(Salting to 0.3% is achieved in steps. First salt to 0.1%: 1 TSP per gallon of coarse-grained aquarium or canning/pickling salt, pre-dissolved before added to the aquarium. Do this three times over the course of 36 hours, in 12 hour intervals.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hiya and welcome to Koko's!

I am confused -- in your initial post, you say that there are four fish in the tank. Then in your signature (the text part) you say that there are six fish. But in the photo I count eight fish. What's up? BTW, even small koi are not aquarium fish -- are they in there with your ryukins and orandas?

I agree with Joy -- in my experience AmQuel+ will never get you down to zero of anything (ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate). Could you do the test again with shaking the reagent and the test tube for the recommended time and post back?

I don't think that 78 degree water is probably the problem -- my tank has been at 80+ degrees (because of the heat outside) for a couple of months now. As long as other conditions are right warm water shouldn't cause disease in goldfish.

BTW, would you mind sizing your signature down? Because the photo is so wide it makes the whole thread resize so that we have to scroll sideways with each line to read your posts. It is a great photo of a beautiful tank, however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

I'm trying to get to resizing my sign, but I do most of this on my cell, I'm not really available at the computer much. I retested the Nitrates, and it turns out the colour got darker, I never shook in between solution one and two before. As of now, it reads to be a little over 5.0ppm, I can't be exact because the colours skip from 5 to 10 and the colour of the test is quite a bit darker than five but not as dark as ten. As for the picture, I had to do a panorama and my goldfishes swim very actively so they show up in different parts of the panorama, which is why you see duplicates; however, yes, there are two kois in there, but only for the next month, maybe two months, while the pond is finishing up. PH has also been retested and the same results were found. I did not quarantine, can't really put them into the cichlid tank, so they just went right in. Will treat for Prazi starting tomorrow night, which is the time in which I can run out and get the medication, as for the salt, I have that readily available from my cichlids, should I start that now and continue to the medication later, or should I do both at once? Thank you both for helping me!

Btw, I don't know if anyone missed it, but the fins are a tad frayed also, I didn't know if that was important, just thought it might be a symptom worth considering.

Edited by hoangphan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Unless you have access to a much better fish store than most of us do, you will have to mail order Prazi. It is generally not available in stores. You can get it at www.goldfishconnection.com or at www.drsfostersmith.com. But your spelling leads me to believe that you might be in the UK? If that is the case you will have a harder time getting a hold of it. Pixiefish has a thread about Prazi in the UK, so hopefully that will be of some help to you.

Salt and prazi together are no problem. Many of us treat with 0.3% salt and prazi simultaneously in quarantine. BTW -- I don't know much about cichlids, but I don't think that cichlid salt is the same thing that you want to use with your goldfish. Doesn't it have some additional minerals to duplicate their environment in various lakes? What you want for your goldfish is plain NaCl. You can use aquarium salt, pickling salt, canning salt, or plain salt intended for water softeners. Just be sure it doesn't have any additives (like iodine) or anti-caking agents (like YPS).

I also wanted to point out that the koi may be a source of stress for your goldfish and could be part of the cause of the red/frayed fins on your oranda. Koi swim much faster than fancy goldfish and can nip goldfish fins. Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

:hide: OK, so, you might think this is stupid, but for some reason, I spell certain words the British way and randomly speak with a very light British accent in no real intent. I guess I must have been taught by a British teacher in my younger years at one point or another, but no, I live in Florida. As for having to order it, crap. Would it be too late? I figure that the delivery and processing alone would take three days if not longer, dependent upon where I would have to order from; I think Dr.FosterandSmith is located in California, which would mean about four days maybe to get to me. As for the salt, it's normal aquarium salt with no other trace elements, with my cichlids, I found that somehow normal aquarium salt makes them spawn a lot more, I was getting a batch about every month or two. And referring to the concern that the kois might be nipping at the Oranda, that might be it, I don't know what happens when I'm not around them, which is a good twelve hours out of the day, but, when I am home, it seems that they get along well, if not the goldfishes chasing the kois. :D

EDIT: I just sat and looked at the Oranda for about five minutes and noticed that it looks like it is biting the water, could this be part of the problem? Then again, all of them seem to be biting the water, not really yawning, very quick open and closing of the mouth.

Edited by hoangphan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Just a note about your signature-- photos can be easily resized in Photobucket, which I notice is where you host your photos. It really is big and does make it difficult for us to read the thread.

The "biting" behavior you mention is what we refer to as gasping or swallowing air, and it is one of the signs of flukes. I recommend getting your tank up to 0.1% salt tonight and by tomorrow night get it up to 0.3%. The salt will help with the flukes, but the only things that kills flukes dead is Prazi. Flukes are not USUALLY lethal, but instead weaken a fish to the point of infection by other diseases. In other words, you should order the Prazi ASAP, but not be completely out of your mind waiting for it to arrive because your fish is lying on death's door.

I think there are several issues with the tank that need to be straightened out. I'm certain that flukes is one of them. But getting those koi out of there as soon as possible is a VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE. Koi need 300 gallons each... you're well stocked as it is with four fish in your 55, and those koi are most assuredly nipping at your goldfish's fins. (Salt will help with this, but what really needs to happen is to get the koi into the pond ASAP). It's a good thing that you're showing some nitrates. Do keep an eye on your water parameters and do lots of big water changes-- those koi will spoil the water fast.

(It's not stupid that you sometimes speak UK English. I spend a lot of time on international forums such as this one and have lots of friends from the UK, Oz, and NZ, so I tend to spell things differently and speak differently, too.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

Ok, I just salted my aquarium with 60tbs of salt, which I figured would be 0.01. Is there anything else that might be available at an LFS that kills Flukes? The wait would drive me insane more than likely. And you're probably one of the few people that don't think it's stupid that I sometimes speak/spell UK, most of my friends think its either cool or retarded, then again, I hang out with a bunch of sixteen/seventeen year olds, so I guess I should expect much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Was that 60 teaspoons (TSP) or tablespoons (TBSP)??

There are products out there that claim to treat flukes, but I would NEVER use one. Prazi is so gentle that you can use it even without proof of flukes (the only real proof is to scrape the slimecoat gently and look at it under a microscope). It won't harm your fish and it won't harm your cycle. I believe there are some products that contain praziquantel, but it's not worth the money because it's not a high enough concentration. Prazi is worth the wait.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

I meant to type 12 Tablespoons, which is 60 gallons divided by 5, in case you were wondering how I got such a crazy typo. And OK, I will order it and for the mean time get up to 0.03% salt in my aquarium. And I tried resizing on photobucket, and while the image on the host site is resized, the signature on here refuses to change to the size from the host site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I'm glad that Joy explained that to you about the nitrates. Many times I know it in my head but have a hard time getting it across, lol.

When I mentioned the water temps, I was thinking more about the warm water sucks oxygen out and with the added AlgaeFix it could be a problem. I don't know that its harmful to fish, but I don't see how it could be good for them either. The yawning definitely sounds like flukes.

BTW I don't know if I mentioned what a beautiful tank you have set up. Very nice decorations!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

Thanks for the compliment, I really want to add in live plants, but I fear that would be just too much work to take care of. Bleh, so here's to waiting impatiently while I search for and order praziquantel. How much does this stuff cost anyways?

EDIT: I know for sure that my LFS has Parasite Clear by Jungle and it has praziquantel and claims to kill Flukes, would this work? And I have to remove the carbon for medication don't I?

EDIT: If Parasite Clear doesn't work, PraziPro, would four ounces work? I have 55 gallons

Edited by hoangphan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I have heard of people using Parasite Clear by Jungle, but I personally would not. I would wait for others' opinions before choosing.

Here is a link to PraziPro on Drs. Foster and Smith: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...fm?pcatid=12098

The usual treatment course for prazi is 5-7 days, though I have heard of particularly bad fluke loads taking as long as 3 weeks to clear completely. Prazi is pretty useful to have on hand, and if you ever decide to get another fish, it is a MUST for a QT process. When I purchased mine, I only bought a 4oz. bottle, which is now almost gone. I wish I would have sprung for the bigger bottle. It really IS worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

Bleh, OK, is Flukes contagious? Would I bid well to just return him to the store and get another Oranda? I think he is still under the 14 days warranty or what not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Flukes is highly contagious. I am sure that every single fish at the store from which your fish was purchased is infected with flukes, as are the other three fish in your tank.

I forgot to mention that yes, you do need to remove carbon from your filter during medication. I personally never run carbon in my filters unless I am REMOVING meds from the water.

Why would you want to return your fish?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

Because I'm pretty much anal retentive and knowing that its there and waiting for the meds would kinda kill me. :D But OK, I will order it and get to fixing. I finally nerved up and picked the fish up and put it into a net while I took pics, will post.

SANY0042.jpg

SANY0045.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

If you are willing to return fish to the store, I would urge you to return the koi until their pond is ready. I suspect that they are a significant part of the problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hoangphan

The kois are no longer under the 14-Day return, but the goldfishes are. That's why I was wondering about the Oranda, but, I decided to get the meds and, well, hope for the best!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

IMHO, removing one oranda from a heavily overstocked tank will do very little considering that you have not one, but two koi in a 55gal. I mean, the tank is barely a fraction of what just one of the koi needs. My LFS do take fish in if they have room, even if you did not purchase it there or if the return date has lapsed. It's just not healthy for any of the fish right now. How long is it going to be before your pond is finished?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...