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Prime Versus Amquel Plus


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I've been reading a lot of old threads looking for information on comparing the various products. Imogen suggested starting a thread in this section to get tips from some of the mods and members that are from the US that have a lot of imformation on the two products. (One person she mentioned in particular was Fishmerised) I've found some excellent posts from Daryl and others that have been extremely helpful. I remember seeing a post from Vickie a little while back explaining how Prime binds for 24 hours, but Amquel is different. I can't find the post anywhere. I know there are tons of articles, and threads about these two products, but I just wanted recent input from people on the two and which they prefer. I have both, along with soooo many other water conditioners. Prime is my favorite because of the drops. But right now I am dealing with some tanks with crashed or slowed cycles, and if Prime is only good for 24 hours, I was thinking about switching to Amquel Plus in those two tanks, that way I am not panicking every day about "what if I accidentally go over 24 hours!?" Yesterday I was extremely sick. Still am but getting better. I was awake for a few hours and thought "I'll do the tanks later". I went to take a nap and didn't get back out of bed until 12 hours later. (I had a cold AND really bad allergies and the benadryl knocked me out). When I woke up I panicked because I knew it was about 6 hours PAST when the water change was due.

I am also considering using Ammo chips/Zeolite (they are exactly the same correct? Or for the most part?) in my sister's new small tropical tank. I have so much on my hands with the goldies in QT right now. Her trop tank is only 5 gallons, and right now there is only one platy. The glass cat died. :( I thought it was cycled, but just like some of my other tanks, it has crashed, or at least slowed. Since the goldies are all at salt of 0.3% I can't use the ammochips with them. But with the platy she isn't getting salt. I have an extra of the exact same tank that the Platy is in. I am going to do a fishless cycle on it, and move the platy in there once it's done. In the meantime I was thinking about using ammo-chips in the trop tank. Once the platy is moved into the cycled one, I will just keep the tank as a backup hospital tank, just for fish getting meds so there is no need for a cycle in there. With one small platy only in a tank with no cycle to preserve that I don't need to have cycled at all, I'm thinking ammochips would be an excellent choice in this case, even better than prime or amquel. So I'm just looking for any advice on the product, and how long it seems to work. Is it probable that if I used it in the platy tank, and changed the water once a week and added new zeolite each week that might be enough? I will still test the water for definite results, just curious as what to expect. Thanks in advance, all input is greatly appreciated! :)

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Prime and Amquel Plus do the same thing.

I haven't used ammo chips and I'm not familiar with them as they are not usually recommended. However I understand you plan to use them for short term management as you don't need to cycle that particular tank. I don't know how often you need to change the ammo chips, guess you need to refer to manufacturer's instructions.

If the tank is 5 gallons with only 1 platy, and you plan to do weekly water changes you probably won't need ammo chips. The cycle would be very slow and ammonia/nitrIte levels should never get very high. It's up to you.

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Thanks! That would be wonderful if I don't need to use the ammo chips. So far now that it is just the platy the tank seems to be staying pretty close ammonia wise as my tap water is. I'll have to see how many days it will stay that way before getting too high.

The only thing I am confused about is that you say Prime and Amquel are the same. I know they do the same thing, but I feel like I read someone (I really thought it was Vickie?) mention how ONE of them only binds for 24 hours and the other one binds longer, but I couldn't remember how long. I feel like it was Prime that must be redosed after 24 hours... and I am curious how long the Amquel binds for?

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I still can't find the original thread I was talking about but, I just found this posted by Pixie in a recent thread.

Have you ever used Ammo-lock (API)? It has quite a strong binding capacity.

It is similar to the AmQuel in its reaction to the nessler kit (false positive readings) and its binding capacity (ie. it doesn't release its bond after 24 hours, like Prime). But, whereas a standard does of AmQuel binds around 1ppm ammonia (AmQ + does about 1.2, I think), Ammo-Lock will bind up to 3 ppm of ammonia per dose, but if you have 6ppm you can double dose with the product to bind all 6 ppm to its non-toxic form.

I actually do have Ammo-Lock as well, just forgot about it! That might be the way to go in the trop tank rather than the Ammo Chips!!!

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http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=63831

Is this the thread you were looking for? I know that Prime binds for 24hrs and another brand binds indefinately, but I can't recall what that other brand is. It could be Amquel Plus or Ammo-Lock.

I think if you feed lightly there will be very little ammonia build up in the platy tank. Good luck.

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Thank you Fishmerised (Annette?) That's not the particular thread I was talking about but it is one I have read before that was very helpful. I actually just re-read it too. I was also under the false impression that when you added Prime the readings of ammonia were to be zero so I remember when I first read this thread it made things a whole lot clearer.

At this point the only reason I want to find the other thread is for OCD reasons! lol It bugs not being able to find it HAHA. At this point I am using the product that best fits each tank. Right now one of my QT tanks that had a slowed cycle picked back up, so the ammonia is always back at zero within 24 hours. So I'm dosing the new water with Prime in there and that's it. The other Qt tank is new and has no cycle, so in that one I am checking the levels every day if not twice a day, and using Prime to treat the new water, THEN a dose of Ammo Lock for the whole tank, with plenty of aeration. The levels get to be around 0.75 after 24 hours, then I do a water change. We will be gone for 2 days though, but it works perfectly because the fish are due for their two days breaks from the prazi (and dimilin in the one tank). So I will do 100% water changes tonight, and they should be fine til I get home. The final tank with issues would be the platy and as you predicted the levels are not so high in there. I added ammo-lock to be safe though. Things are hectic right now with all new fish and cycle issues, but the good news is the goldfish are at about Day 14 of the salt, prazi (and dimilin in the one tank). So things will ease up soon. That is of course, if I don't run out the first day and buy another new fish LOL Thanks for your help!! :)

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Wow! you have been busy! I know what you mean about wanting to find that particular thread. Sometimes I get a tune in my head and it annoys me so much if I can't remember the words or the name of the song. Sooner or later it all comes back to me. lol

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HAHA Oh I know exactly what you mean!!!!! Thank god for the internet. At least now if you have a few words sometimes you can google it and come up with the song. I've layed in bed before with movie quotes in my head and can't sleep for hours until I figure out what it is I am thinking about. And of course it turns out to be something you'd NEVER have guessed! Still can't find that thread. Oooh I can search Vickie's posts! LOL That might take a while. I'm gonna get it though!

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Hi just wanted to add a few details which may be helpful.

The following products detoxify ammonia whilst still leaving it available for use by the bio-filter. In other words they won't disrupt the nitrogen cycle.

Prime

binds lower levels for up to 24 hours; after this time it will unbind if you have not changed water.

The standard dose will detoxify approximately 0.8 mg/L ammonia, 1.2 mg/L chloramine, or 3.3 mg/L chlorine. It is possible to double dose if either amm or chlor's are high. It can also be used to detoxify nitrite in an emergency; up to 5 times normal dose may be used in this instance.

NB. mg/L are more or less equal to ppm.

Caution:

Kits: Avoid Nessler kits (yellow to brown); they are completely disrupted by the active ingredients and will give you false 'off the charts' results.

Instead, use a salicylate based kit (yellow to green); the key to success is to take the reading right away, as the results will not be reliable after time in the tank.

The best solution of all is to use the Seachem MultiTest: Ammonia kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia)

Amquel - Kordon

detoxifies ammonia permanently.

The standard dose will detoxify/remove up to 3 mg/L chloramines and 1.0 mg/L of all ammonia compounds in fresh or salt water. Use multiple doses to remove more than 1.0 mg/L ammonia from the water.

Cautions:

Kits: As with Prime, a Nessler kit should not be used. Salicylate kits are preferable with the exception of API which does not work either. The best option is to use Kordon's own brand Aqua-Tru test kits.

Meds: As Amquel is, among other things, a dye remover, it should never be used in conjunction with treatments containing chemical dyes (such as methylene blue, acriflavine, potassium permanganate or malachite green) as AmQuel will interfere with their performance.

PH stability : Under some circumstances (multiple doses at a low end PH) Amquel has been known to lower the pH in the water due to the acidity of its formulation; Kordon do make buffers specifically for use with this product.

Amquel +

Like Amquel, Amquel plus also detoxifies ammonia permanently.

The standard dose will detoxify at least 1.2 mg/L ammonia, at least 2.0 mg/L nitrites, at least 13 ppm nitrates. and amazingly, 33 ppm of all chlorines including those chlorines in chloramines from the water. Detox of compounds normally happens within five minutes, or slightly longer for ammonia in water with a higher pH above 7.5.

Unlike Amquel, AmQuel+ does not affect the water's pH.

Cautions:

As with Amquel - with the exception of PH concerns.

Ammo-Lock - API

Like Amquel, it detoxifies ammonia permanently.

Standard dose will remove up to 3mg/L ammonia (and doubled dosed up to 6mg/L) 7 mg/L chlorine and 5mg/L chloramine.

Cautions:

As with the other conditioners, avoid Nessler kits. API also gives off the chart ammonia readings.

I suspect a kit using the gas exchange sensor system would be more reliable than a colormetric tester, although I have not had this confirmed by API.

Its effect upon chemical dyes is currently unconfirmed by API - I will post up with any further info as and when I receive it.

Hopefully this info will be helpful.

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Pixie this was incredibly helpful! Something like this was exactly what I was looking for..a list with all the details and all the pros and cons. Thank you!!!!!!

So it looks to me like Prime is excellent for using in tanks with established cycles, but when dealing with cycling tanks with higher levels off ammonia which rise, it looks like Amquel Plus Or Ammo Lock is the way to go! Right now I've been using Prime to treat the tap water, then dosing the tank with Ammo-Lock because of my cycle issues. They CAN be combined correct? I've been keeping my water changes around 24 hours, but it's nice to have that safe feeling with Ammo Lock knowing I can be a little off if need be.

When you say the key to to Prime is to take the reading right away... Well typically for me, I take a reading, then add the prime. Is this also a good method? I've noticed that if I take readings before and after adding the prime, they don't change. Is this right? The levels stay the same but you are to assume that the ammonia has been detoxified? Thanks SO much that was a VERY helpful post!!!

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So..... any idea WHY the Prime releases the ammonia after a period of time? Is it a buildup of pH "crash" that changes and the ammonia is released? Or what other chemical change occurs in the water that would precipitate such a release? Time is not a factor that can easily be built into this type of chemical reaction.....

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Hi County and Acupunk - I'm glad this info was helpful. I will try to add more detail as and when I recieve more info from the manufacturers.

Daryl - to answer your question, Seachem are rather unforthcoming about their active ingredients and so it is rather hard to get an exact explanation. Here is a recent reply from them in response to my last enquiry.

"Unfortunately, the active ingredient in Prime is proprietary information. I can tell you that it binds to the ammonia in a form that is non-toxic to the fish. What happens is, a reducing agent (which Prime is) will donate elections so that the NH3 (ammonia) is now NH4 (ammonium). Ammonium is not toxic. This can last for up to 48 hours. "

For instance: Amquel's active ingredient is sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate.

Ammo-Lock utilizes sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate and works similarly to Amquel.

Amquel Plus has its patents pending, so the ingredients are currently undisclosed, BUT, its effect is to break the toxic nitrogen compounds in the water apart, thereby gassing out their oxygen and hydrogen components from the water into the air; that way the nitrogen compounds are prevented from recombining into toxic form.

I imagine that Prime's reducing agents are some type of other variation of hydrosulfite salts - made up of bisulfites and hydrosulfites - in an aqueous solution with an added buffer; my guess is that ingredients can become degraded and expire with time due to the fact that reducers are affected by exposure to oxidizers.

Does this sound resonable? Maybe you could get more out of them than me?

I am not sure why else this product would provide temporary detoxification whilst the others make it permanent

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I see what you are talking about with getting off the chart readings when using the API Test Kit along with Ammo-Lock... Most days I have been using prime, but two times I used AmmoLock. Once when I knew I was going to be gone for 2 days, and once last night... The tank I used it in is averaging a high ammonia reading of about .75ppm. Which is why I am changing the water daily.. It's gotten worse since I have been feeding Samantha Metromeds and have been feeding her twice daily. A daily water change brings the level down to the same as tap (0.25ppm) and by the next day it's around 0.75ppm. (Sometimes less but not more) I use Prime with each water change (which is between 50% and 100%). Last night I knew I couldn't get to a water change for another 5-6 hours so I used ammolock.. Both times I have added the ammo lock the ammonia tests around 4ppm or higher. Thanks one more time, for your helpful post. Otherwise I would be freaking out and not understanding what was going on.. I gotta find this Seachem Multi Test Ammonia Kit.. I am soooo curious to try it out..

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