Jump to content

Fin Rot...anything Else To Do?


Guest inkslingeramok

Recommended Posts

Guest inkslingeramok

Amonia level: 0ppm

Nitrite level: 0ppm

Nitrate level: 40 ppm

Ph level: 7.6

Test kit: API Freshwater Master Test (drops)

Tank size: 20 gallons

Filter: Whisper 20-40

Water change: weekly but it has been 2 weeks (due to moving); I did change it today. Usually it is a 10% water change.

Fish: 3, 2 small 1.5" fish (oranda and fan tail) and one 2" black moor.

Additives: Wardley "Chlor Out"; 5 teaspoons of salt (tank previously un-salted) The tank was cycled (fishless) for over 30 days until the levels were right and then the fish were added. While setting up the tank I did use "Stability" additive by Seachem.

Medications: Furan-2

New fish: Kinda. I had the smallest goldfish (fan tail) for a few months then moved her into the larger tank. I then added about 4 weeks ago the other fish. The "new" fish were quarantined before they were added.

Food: I feed them a mix of sinking pellet food by ColorFin "The Brilliant Blend" for goldfish.

Unusual: Shredded fins, septecimea

Behaviour: Staying at the top of the tank

I am writing about my oranda, Athena. My goldfish are in a 20 gallon tank in my office at work and when I came in this morning I found Athena at the top of the tank with shredded fins. She is very lethargic and even allowed me to handle her. This is unusual because she is normally very active and nibbles my fingers and arm when it's in the tank. My other goldfish, Circe, also has a bit of shredding at the tips of her tail and has been lurking at the bottom of the tank near one of the bubble wands. I immediately tested the water, but all the levels were in the correct peremeters. I then jumped online to research "Tail Fin Rot" and have done the following:

* I did a 20% water change and gravel cleaning. The water that was put in the tank was treated with Chor Out as I didn't have time to let it sit and the chemicals evaporate.

* I added 5 teaspoons of aquarium salt, diffused in a cup of water before adding slowly to the tank. This tank has not previously been salted.

* I used 2 packets of Furan-2 (1 packet per 10 gallons)

* Per the Furan-2 box, I removed the carbon filter (currently in backup tank to prevent loss of beneficial bacteria).

My tank has 2 nine inch bubble wands with a high powered air pump and one live plant. I used un-colored river rock pebbles for the bottom and there is a Greek column circle decoration inside the tank.

Is there anything else that I can do? Or did I do something I shouldn't have? I really don't want to lose my little friends as my beloved Callypso passed away 2 months ago after 2 years together. Cost is not a question at the moment, all I want to do is take good care of my fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hello and welcome to Koko's.

You will have to wait for a moderator for a definitive treatment plan, but I have a few thoughts in the meantime.

Your tank is somewhat overstocked even though your fish are small. Generally it is best to allow 10 gallons of space per fancy goldfish.

Another issue that may have contributed to your problem is the small water changes that you have been doing. With three fish in 20 gallons, you probably ought to be doing 50-75% water changes on a weekly basis to keep the levels of harmful bacteria down.

If you are able, I would recommend that you do a complete water change so that you can start over from scratch with the harmful bacteria. Remove your fish to another location while you thoroughly clean your gravel during this water change. If you have more than 1/4 - 1/2 inch of gravel in your tank, remove gravel to bring it down to this level.

How long have you had the fish food that you are feeding? Fish food goes bad within 3-6 months of opening. I would recommend that you replace your food if you've had it for a while. Omega One is a good brand that is available at most big box pet stores.

Many times keeping very clean water, adding 0.3% salt (1 tablespoon per gallon), and feeding a nutritious diet is enough to heal finrot. Adding the Furan 2 may have been jumping the gun. Hopefully a moderator can get with you soon to let you know what they think. Good luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

P.S. If cost really is not an issue, you might consider adding a UV sterilizer to your tank. This is a filter-like device that passes the water through a tube and exposes it to high intensity UV light, which destroys any bacteria, parasites, algae, etc. that is in the water. It will dramatically cut down on the number of harmful bacteria in your water. I am not familiar with what UV units are available for tanks as small as yours is. You could do a little research at www.drsfostersmith.com to find out more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

New to all of this, so won't give advice... I do have a question though... What is the temperature of your tank water? (I ask because I'm in GA and have been noticing my temp is rising to 80, and you're in FL, so it might be a bit higher.) I don't know much about how water temp can effect things, but it seems like a variable that can make a difference (esp. if there's a bacterial issue/infection)...

Good luck with your fish. The folks around here are super-helpful and will give you great advice!

Edited by uberleslie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Tank temperature is currently at 81 degrees Fahrenheit.

Hmmm...a UV Sterilizer? I'm not familiar with those. I'll have to see if my local fish shop has any.

Oh, I hope the Furan-2 doesn't exacerbate the problems. I was debating it, but she looks like she has septecimea as well and I went ahead with it. It just really scared me to come in and see how bad she looks after just 2 days. The poor thing looks like she got stripped of her beautiful fins. :(

I believe the food is over 3 months old. Thanks for that tip, I'll definitely pick up some newer stuff. I plan on making some gel food for them, but we're in the process of moving and that idea hasn't been able to be put into practice yet.

I'll wait for a moderator before doing anything else, but if a major water change is needed, I'll be able to do that today. Unfortunately my job would probably have a fit if they saw me hauling buckets of water in the middle of the day, so it will have to be after 5 pm. I hope they can make it until then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

If her condition developed very quickly and is severe, perhaps the Furan-2 was the right move. I don't have much experience with medications though, so I can't say for sure. Hopefully a moderator can get with you by the end of the day to let you know if you should change out the water (and remove the Furan-2) or if you should continue with the medication.

:goodluck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Actually, having given it a little more thought, you would probably be best off investing in a larger tank (at least 29 gallons) and a larger filter (one that turns over at least 10 x the tank volume per hour) for your fish instead of a UV sterilizer.

Keep us posted on how your fish is looking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi inkslinger. I wonder if you have been able to get around to the larger water change yet? It's extremely urgent. You see as the others have said the 10% water changes are really not effective at reducing bacteria in your tank. Every month -minimum -you should be doing an 80- 100% change in an overstocked tank. Plus 50% minimum weekly. Your cycle will be quite safe with this and your fish will be at far less risk from the bacterial and nitrate accumulation that helps to cause finrot. Finrot severity is linked to a 1-10 point scale of predisposing stress factors. I can count at least 8 of these factors here and these need to be systematically removed in order for the fish to be able to heal.

As Uberleslie pointed out bacteria thrive at high temperatures. 81F is really getting very high for coldwater fish and I hope you are able to provide the fish with a fan and extra dissolved oxygen via another bubble wand or fixing the filter outpipe so there is more splash at the surface to allow more oxygen to enter the water. At high temperatures, oxygen in water is badly depleted and this will be a huge stressor for your fish. Using Furan in water with any high organic load (in other words anything except a large water change prior to use) and in low DO water is contraindicated since this medication itself robs the water of farther oxygen.

So immediate order of duty:

* Large water change

*Increase DO

* Get some new food and aim to vary the fishes diet

*Cool water with a fan or open window

*Remove furan for now. It is a very caustic and powerfully abrasive medication.

*Gravel vac

*Keep your nitrates down -via regular w/cs -to 10 or less while fish is sick.

Then, I would suggest plan A :a course of medigold food (Goldfishconnection.com) and salt for finrot this extreme or

plan B water born Kanamycin (Seachem does one called kanaplex) and Geltek's tetracyline geldrop food.

For all 3 fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Unfortunately Athena passed away last night. However, I don't think I am out of the woods yet. Circe is showing red lines in her tail and a bit of blotchyness on her sides, which I believe to be hemorrhagic septicemia. Here's what I've done since the last time I wrote:

*Major water change. I emptied it out until the fish were a tad uncomfortable, put 5 gallons back in and then sucked it out again to remove as much of the Furan-2 as possible. Water was treated with Chlor Out.

*Gravel vac'd...a lot. Found where they were hiding the left over food. (facepalm)

*Removal of pebbles. There is only a thin layer across the bottom of the tank.

*Put the existing carbon filter back in. The Furan-2 box recommended removing it and it was stored in the emergency tank until I put it back. However it looks like it could be replaced but I've run out so I have to pick one up at lunchtime.

What should I do to treat Circe for the hemorrhagic septicemia? I am down to 2 goldfish for a 20 gallon tank, which is the recommended amount of fish for that size. The emergency tank is only 5 gallons (it was for a betta orginally but I left it set up as a "just in case" type of thing).

Thanks for all the help...I am super stressed between moving at home and the fish here at work. I hate feeling so helpless when all I want to do is get them better.

Edited by inkslingeramok
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Oh, I am also dissolving some salt for the tank...forgot to mention that.

Also, the levels are off in the tank since the major water change. Ammonia is at 1ppm and the Nitrites are at .25ppm. The Nitrates are at 10ppm and pH is at 7.6 still. Will they even out as the bacteria does their job or do I need to do something else to the water?

Edited by inkslingeramok
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Update on the tank:

Circe and Artemis are still with me. I added more salt today and just checked the water. The ammonia and nitrites are too high so I am going to do a water change in a bit to help bring them down.

In other news...we have a 250 gallon salt water tank with live rock here in the office. The owner pays a cleaning service to come out and take care of the tank since it's so large. Our "Fish Guy" who came to care for the tank was John. Well, John was supposed to show up yesterday to do a "deep clean" but never showed. Eventually the owner of the shop came and explained that he had let John go earlier that day. The owner, Kevin, then cleaned the tank and did a water change.

About 10 minutes after Kevin left...the fish started dying. We watched helpless as our mating clown fish turned belly up, the blue damsel, sixone wrasse, yellow tang...and finally this morning, our blue tang and maroon clown. Of course we immediately called Kevin and he rushed back. He tested the water he had used to do the water change and discovered it had been tainted with chlorine. He believes that John, knowing that the water was coming to our office today, put the chlorine in it. So now I've not only lost my dear Athena, but we've lost pretty much everything in the salt tank. Even the anenomes and hermit crabs appear lifeless.

RIP

Bonnie and Clyde (and their unhatched eggs) - clown fish

Lemonhead - yellow tang

Eval Kneval - sixone wrasse

Nemo - maroon clown

Dory - blue tang

Bloo - blue damsel

Super Anenome - the largest the fish guy had seen in a tank

...and all the rest of the nameless beauties in the tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
Update on the tank:

Circe and Artemis are still with me. I added more salt today and just checked the water. The ammonia and nitrites are too high so I am going to do a water change in a bit to help bring them down.

In other news...we have a 250 gallon salt water tank with live rock here in the office. The owner pays a cleaning service to come out and take care of the tank since it's so large. Our "Fish Guy" who came to care for the tank was John. Well, John was supposed to show up yesterday to do a "deep clean" but never showed. Eventually the owner of the shop came and explained that he had let John go earlier that day. The owner, Kevin, then cleaned the tank and did a water change.

About 10 minutes after Kevin left...the fish started dying. We watched helpless as our mating clown fish turned belly up, the blue damsel, sixone wrasse, yellow tang...and finally this morning, our blue tang and maroon clown. Of course we immediately called Kevin and he rushed back. He tested the water he had used to do the water change and discovered it had been tainted with chlorine. He believes that John, knowing that the water was coming to our office today, put the chlorine in it. So now I've not only lost my dear Athena, but we've lost pretty much everything in the salt tank. Even the anenomes and hermit crabs appear lifeless.

RIP

Bonnie and Clyde (and their unhatched eggs) - clown fish

Lemonhead - yellow tang

Eval Kneval - sixone wrasse

Nemo - maroon clown

Dory - blue tang

Bloo - blue damsel

Super Anenome - the largest the fish guy had seen in a tank

...and all the rest of the nameless beauties in the tank.

I am glad to hear that Circe and Artemis are doing okay, but that's just terrible about the salt water tank. A disgruntled employee adding chlorine (bleach?) to water to intentionally kill a client's fish? How awful.

Obviously I don't know any of the people involved, but it seems possible that the owner made a mistake and did not dechlorinate the water and now he is trying to cover his rear by blaming the ex-employee. One way or another, it would seem that he ought to bear the financial responsibility for replacing the lost fish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Well, the owner has said he will replace all of the fish in the tank, and while that is nice, it's just sad that the fish we've known and loved are gone. I don't know how the water got tainted (and find it hard to believe John would do that...he seemed like a nice guy), but it did and the poor fish paid the price. :(

I've completed a water change on my tank but may do another one later today (when my co-workers aren't counting the number of buckets I haul outside) since it was only a 25% water change and I think it could use a 50%. I'll test later to verify.

I still see signs of septicemia on Circe. Is there anything else I should be doing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
I still see signs of septicemia on Circe. Is there anything else I should be doing?

Specifically, what signs are you seeing? Is Circe the same or is she getting worse? What is your salt level and how many days have you been salting? Have you had an opportunity to order the medicated food (Medigold) that Trinket recommended yesterday?

Sometimes "not worse" is all that we can expect in the initial stages of treating fish illness. If you are doing everything Trinket recommended, I would try and just hold tight for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I am so sorry about the fish :cry1 ! What are you treating with at present for the septicemia? How does it look?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

This is only my second day of salting, and as I can only do it ever 24 hours rather than every 12, the tank has only had two doses of salt.

Circe seems to be holding at the same level she was yesterday. The edges of her tail are frayed and she has red lines extending from the base of the tail outwards and dark splotches on her side. Upon closer inspection, I have begun to see tiny white spots in abundance on her tail (Ich?). I think I also see them on Artemis, but it's hard to be sure because she's kind of shy. I understand salting will take care of the Ich, but it's the septecemia that worries me.

I haven't got the medicated food yet. The place I usually go to isn't fish specific and they don't stock it so I have to go to a store in the next town over (we have a small town here. lol). Hopefully the big store will have it on the shelves so I can start feeding right away.

I really appreciate all the help and am so happy I found this place. The stores here really have no clue how to care for goldfish. One guy in one store told me "they're fish...they die. It's what they do." Ticked me off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

We have all experienced that too. Why koko started the site :) I suggest at this point you get any medicated food you can.It's urgent. Jungle makes one (anti-bacteria or geltek BX one) Sepsis is always internal so the food meds get right in to the problem best. The salt is absolutely crucial to keep up for 2 weeks at 0.3% if you have ich/white spot. Works a charm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member
One guy in one store told me "they're fish...they die. It's what they do." Ticked me off.

Eww! Sorry to jump in during an emergency but I've been reading your thread and I just saw what you wrote.. I had the same thing basically said to me. When I was cycling (even though I didn't know that was what it was called) and all my fish were getting sick I was going around to pet stores and one guy told me. "Hope you aren't attached. They are probably all going to die". It made me so mad. Then someone else said "Just flush em and start over". I have quickly learned that, with a FEW exceptions, pet stores are for purchasing products, koko's is for reliable information. There is this one guy at the new LFS I found that seems to be very consistent will the info on here, although I've only spoken with him once so far. Good luck with your fishes recovery. And I am soo sorry about Athena :cry1

Edited by CountryLovah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

I finally found a store that had something in the line of medicated food for fish. He said it was called Thera-X. Is anyone familiar with this and would it work for my goldies? Or should I widen my search circle into the next town after the next town?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jungle Medicated fish food is good stuff. My old pearlscale had a bit of a septicemia problem that I cought much earlier than you have however, and it helped him out LOADS! Don't break your feeding plan though, as that will disrupt the treatment. And once the treatment is done, don't feed until it is needed again. Feeding antibiotic food such as this can make your fish and baddies in your tank get used to it and it won't work when you really need it. (Like now!)

Good luck with your fishie. I know how hard it is to watch Septicemia ravage your fish baby. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

I tracked down some Jungle Anti-Bacteria and Anti-Parasite food at a store not too far away! *grin* I'll be able to go get it after work and start treating my little ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

Yikes! The chemical levels are nuts!

Okay, I got the medicated food (which they weren't too thrilled about) but now I can't seem to bring the chemical levels in the water in-line.

Here's what I've done today to the water:

*80% water change

*Treated new water with ChlorOut

*Added 2 capfulls of Stability

*Added dissolved salt (15 teaspoons to replace what I removed in the water change.

And here's what the kit is saying the levels are at, even after all of that:

pH - 7.4

Ammonia - 1.0ppm

Nitrites - 1.0ppm

Nitrates - 10ppm

This was a fully cycled tank before all this started, so I am confuzzled over what to do next. The fish are hanging in there, but is there anything else I should try to help bring the levels in line or just more water changes? Will they be okay at these levels? I am worried because I won't be able to check on them this weekend due to the fact I am moving. I want to get them fine before I leave for the weekend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I suspect that your cycle is crashed as a result of the Furan 2. In addition to killing pathogenic bacteria on fish, it also will kill the beneficial bacteria in your filter. This is one of the reasons to avoid using water borne medications like this if at all possible.

Unforunately the only solution to water parameters like the ones you're describing are large, frequent water changes. You can also use AmQuel+ to give you a little breathing room between water changes (it will convert the ammonia and nitrite to a form that is not harmful to the fish but is still available to the filter bacteria). You can dose the whole tank volume directly into the tank.

Because your fish are already stressed by their illness, they really need good water parameters. This means doing your best to keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.5 ppm (at the highest, preferably lower) with a combination of water changes and AmQuel+. If you can't be around for the weekend, I would recommend doing another very large water change at the end of the day Friday. Continue with the salt because it will help protect them against nitrite poisoning.

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

I want to thank everyone for all their help...I really appreciate it. I've been following the suggestions and so far the remaining two fish are still hanging in there.

Today I did a 50% water change this morning and plan to do another 50% at the end of the day. Even though I am in the process of moving this weekend, I am going to try to drive over here to do more water changes and treatments. I got the ammonia down some, but those darn nitrites are resilient little buggers.

Thanks to all the information on this site, I now know what I did wrong and what to do in the future. My love of goldfish (which has anyone else noticed the fish store people don't appreciate them nearly enough? One guy made it seem like a joke to spend all my money on $5 fish) has only increased and as soon as I am settled in the new apartment, I want to invest in a larger tank and more fish.

Hopefully my two little friends will make it through the weekend...so thanks to all who have given me tips and advice on what to do. :thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest inkslingeramok

I just wanted to say a big Thank You to everyone for their help! The fish survived the weekend move, the visible ick is no more, the chemical levels in the water are normal, and even Circe's tail fins look like they are healing. Because of the advice I was given, I think my two little friends will make it. And now if something like this happens again, not only will I be better prepared (with medicated food and salt dosing), but I know where I can come for help. :D

Also, after reading some stuff on here, I've discovered that The Goldfish Connection is a great place to buy all the things I need. Already I have some ProGold on the way. I can't wait to see how Circe and Artemis react to it.

Once again, thankyouthankyouthankyou. I really appreciate it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...