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Breeding Orandas - And Misc. Questions


Guest Orandaa

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Guest Orandaa

Hey there, this is my first post so I'll say hey! My name is Dan and I'm from Canada.

I've got a goldfish tank here beside me and I've got a large Common Goldfish (approx. 10 inches in length), 4 small fantail goldfish (approx. 1 inch in length), and a lovely red capped Oranda (approx. 3-3.5 inches in length). I had some worries about mixing my big Common (Ronald) with my 4 fantails but everyone gets along great! My favourite fantail is my little all black one (his name is Garrisen), he's got big eyes and always swims WITH my big common which is great to see. Anyway, I figured I'd introduce my fish as well as myself! Oh, it's a 30 gallon tank btw.

Anyway, I've had all my fish for a while now except my Oranda, Sabastien. He's decent in size and has a decent size Wen. It's not covering his eyes or anything, but its easily noticable. It's bright orange and the rest of his body is white. His tail is about 80% the length of his body, and split (4 total fins at the rear), it's very flowly. He's rather slender which makes me think it's a male, as well.

Im thinking of buying a new tank, just to have another one around, and I was thinking of putting him in it by himself, so I have a few questions..

Will he get lonely? The tank will be in my room as well, right beside my current tank, so he'll look over and see the other ones swimming, will it affect his mood? Also, I was wondering what breeding information I can receive on Orandas. I'm hoping to eventually breed some beautiful Orandas because I think with proper technique and care, Orandas can be some of the nicest looking fish you can own! I'd love to own a couple Panda Orandas (say that 10 times fast!) and perhaps some Calico Orandas. And I was wondering when the best time to breed is, also how to tell if it's a male or female at an early age (So I dont waste my time thinking it's male when its female, and vice versa).

Any tips you can give me would be awesome! Im going to upload some photos of Sabastien, Garrisen and the rest of the crew later so you can see them all :D

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welcome to koko's :D ..you have a very large common 10"!!!!...commons need 20g per fish and fancy goldfish need 10g per fish so when you buy a new tank keep that in mind I would look into a 40 or bigger than you can split them up nicely..oh and extra filtration 10x gph so a 30 would need 300gph and so on .telling a sex a ta young age is very hard ..a male will get spots onthe first ray of his pec fins and also on gillplates which are called breeding stars (which may be hard to tell in a oranda with good head growth) there is a lot of wonderful info on this site you will find very useful...can't wait to see pics !!!.. :)

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If you intend on breeding, there are some books around that can be very helpful - Joseph Smarts Goldfish Genetics and, of course, RickHess Fancy Goldfish.

Do not skimp on the tank. Breeding fish need room. I would also suggest that you do not skimp on the quality of the breeders you purchase. It is easiest to use 2 males with one female..... but a single pair can be very productive.

I like to place breeding grass in the breeding tank and remove it when it is full of eggs. This allows you to give the eggs a totally clean environment to develop. It also means that you will need still ANOTHER tank - and, while you are at it, you will need still ANOTHER larger tank to grow the fry out. It is very difficult to tell the quality or even viability of many fry before they are at least 12-16 weeks old - and when you are dealing with a wened fish, you often have to wait a year to determine if you are going to have a fish that is at least as good as it's parents.

To breed, you also have to have a rather thick skin. Even with the BEST breeding fish in the world, there exists the possibility of incompatabilities. I have bred two spectacular fish together only to have a V ERY poor number of reasonable fry result. Sometimes two fish that you would not think would be compatible can produce a great spawn - and others are total failures. Last year, in one spawning, I had well over 1000 fry and had ZERO that were worth growing out.

Even with the best crosses, it is average to realize about 1 in 100 will be worth growing out to "saleable size" - and, within that group only about 1 in 100 of them will be a good representation of the particular breed. Take 1 in 100 of those and you may have a show fish. It takes patience, time and a whole lot of space and work to successfully breed good goldfish. But it can be worth it - if for nothing more than the sake of the accomplishment.

Think about a bigger tank. Think about the breeders you want to get. You should be able to get a nice Oranda for under $300. - but a pair or trio can run you up to $1000. so plan ahead.

Welcome to Koko's. :)

Please - come on back and ask ANY questions that you may have. There is a wealth of information here on this board - hiding in the minds of all its members. We are all here to share our passion.

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They have to be "culled" - which is another way of saying.... "killed". Unfortunately, goldfish genetics is one of the most complicated sets of genetic codes in the world - mainly because almost every set of alleles is independant - with very few being connected or modified by another. This means that the possible combinations go up exponentially.

Since fish have been so highly bred, (and other reasons) you can easily get 1000s of fry per spawning, but, of those 1000s, very few will actually be reasonable examples of the breed. Some parents breed much better than others - and some can be downright incompatible. Usually, the best way to determine this is to breed them. I have had spawnings of 1000s that all are culled. I have a recent group that is from a set of females bred back totheir father that has yeilded a fair number of promising fry. I still would say only 20 or so look reasonable, though - out of many.

Nature has a way of removing many fry from the picture, too. There are many genetic combinations that are "lethal" - meaning that the fry that carries them is incapable of growing up. Most common times for fry to hit this time is at about 5 weeks, 8 weeks and 12 weeks of age. The guess is that they simply outgrow their body's ability to process food or whatever - and they die. It is not always the small, scrawny ones, either. Often it can be the BIG, nice looking one you have had your eye on that goes belly up overnight.

If you look at the numbers - a single spawn usually produces 1000-2000 fry, you could not even begin to provide for that many. You have to be selective. IF you try to raise too many, they all suffer. So selection at various stages in a fry's life will help you cut down on the numbers until you have a number that you can deal with easily - and raise to the best they can be. Goldfish - like many creatures that do not specifically care for their young - have to produce far greater numbers than simply "replacement" of the parent. So many would naturally not make it to breeding age - being eaten or whatever - that the fish must produce GREAT numbers of offspring to ensure that at least 2 make it to adult breeding age.

Breeding goldfish can be extremely frustrating - but rewarding if done well. IT is not easy - and not without heartache - but the feeling of great accomplishment is overwhelmingly good when you get a small one to grow and be a GREAT fish. (even just a GOOD fish - ;) )

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Guest Orandaa

How do you go about culling them? Just flush 'em?

How do you decide which ones to let grow out?

Andd approx. how many fry are left (after nature takes its course) once you do make your selections?

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I tend to be a little more "weak of heart" than most, I guess. I use clove oil and od them. :(

Culling is done by selecting the fry that do not have the traits that are wanted. For Oranda, you originally select for double tails, dorsal fin, etc. A wenned fish is one of the harder ones to select for at a young age. You can select for body type as they begin to develop, but the wen will not make itself known for quite some time.

I was clueless at selection for the first 2-3 thousand, but I think I am finally getting the hang of RYUKIN selection. I am much less experienced at seeing potential in Ranchu/Lionhead - the other that I have bred multiple times. The Phoenix I simply keep any that have smooth backs and the characterisitic tails and let them grow out - there are too few around to worry with.

In Ryukin, I select for double tail first. As they grow, I look for the right distance between the head and the dorsal spine. The tail shape is another biggy - it has to have the right angle, be full (for broadtail - but I get a number of standards even within the Broadtail breeding - and, if on a good body, I keep the fry). The body types on my Ryukin line begin to show potential at about 12-16 weeks - when the "good" ones start deepening and developing a slight hump. The tails have to be straight and properly angled. I am also a stickler for double anal fins. A fry has to be pretty nice everywhere else to make it a keeper if it has a single anal. Finally, but not the least is the color. "Pinkies" are not high on my list of favorites, but a well shaped white fish will sell nicely in a pet store.

Finally, the last cut comes from "presence" in the water. A little fish should muscle it's way through the water like it is the most important being in the tank - it has to swim like it believes it. You can see those little "primadonnas" in the water if you watch. Those are the "winners".

:)

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Guest Orandaa

Wow thanks for all the info. I've been researching all types of goldfish all week and I really like how the Ryukins look. I read that they can be aggressive though. I'd love to own one, Im not sure if my local fish store would get any, I've never seen one.. though they do sell Orandas and Black Moors, along with commons, comets, fantails, etc. so they may get some in.

How long have you owned your Ryukins?

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Well, as close as I can figure, I have had nice Ryukins since about 1991ish...... The specific ones I have now are all ages - the large one in my avatar has been with me for a number of years - he is the "daddy" to most of my younger ones. I have hundreds right now. They are one of my favorite fish.

RYukins do have a reputation of being "eye pickers" and "aggressive", but the honest truth is that I have NEVER had a "bad" one. I have had "bad" other fish - the "worst" is a Froghead named Kermit. He is a wicked bully. I think it is as much a learned attitude as it is genetically created ... I would hesitate to define a specific breed as one thing or another simply because of the actions of one or two individuals.

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Guest Orandaa

Sounds good, thanks for the info, Daryl.

I have a question about my Oranda.. its tail is very long, almost the length of its body, but its not very upright (for lack of a better term). Like your Ryukin's tail in your avatar is more upright, my Orandas tail is very long, is that bad, or low quality?

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US Standards For Oranda

General Description:

The Oranda is an egg shaped fish with a double caudal fin, and head growth features. The body depth of the fish should be greater tha 2/3 the length of the body. The caudal fin is double, and ranges from 3/4 to 1 1/2 times the body length, and should be 90% or more divided. The lobes of the caudal are somewhate to moderately forked. The dorsal fin should be approximately 1/3 to 5/8 the depth of the body. The pectoral and pelvic fins are paired, and should be of medium length, rounded and well-matched. The paired anal fins should match the pelvic and pectoral fins in length and shape. The distinguishing feature of the fish is the presence of a headgrowth, which can be of three types: Full headgrowth, which covers the head, cheeks and gills; hi-cap growth which is limitied to the top of the head; and cheek and cap-only growth. The oranda can occur in any of the scale types common to goldfish: nacreous, metallic or matt. Acceptable metallic colors include all solid and bi-colors known to goldfish. Nacreous coloration includes bi-color, tri-color, solid red, and calico (with or without spangled scales). Matt coloration includes: pink, bi-color and tri-color.

UK standards are close to the same.

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