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Jack of Hearts

Aquarium Public Enemy #1

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I trust Rick's judgement for the simple fact that I can call him anytime just to ask a question. It doesn't matter if I am ordering from him, or not. He has always tried to help me the best he can. The same can be said for Ken at Dandy Orandas, too.

Everyone has different opinions on all things regarding GF. Everyone is entitled to those opinions. Sometimes there are "right" and "wrong" answers and sometimes, there is a gray area when alot of opinions can be right. At least that is what I have learned from being in this forum. :)

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This has been an interesting and informative thread. Is anyone going to ask that it be pinned? As a newbie, many of the terms and concepts in this thread were incredibly easy for me to grasp. I have PraziPro at home and am on the third day of treatment. I almost didn't use it because my fish stopped displaying signs of fluke infestation, now I'm glad I went ahead with it. :D

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Sooooo....I have the fancy goldfish book at home and I think it shows how to do a scrape and scope. If I do take a sample, what will I do until I get get it to the lab (about 20 mins). Will it be ok in a sample of the tank water, or is that just too long?

Hey Chrissy, a lot of the bugs you will look for will not survive 20mins after a scrape. -you could try airdrying and then do a DiffQuick (Romanowsky stain), but I don't have any references as to what the appearance of these would look like stained, (maybe in some vet pathology textbooks or something :idont ) also you would not be able to see any motility (obviously) which can help distinguish some of the parasites you find on scope.

-It'd be interesting to see! -do you have camera equipment in your lab?

The potential disadvantage of sticking with one treament only, is far greater.

The reason AquaPrazi can be dosed singly, I suppose, is becuz of its strength. The Prazi Pro, however, is not as strong, and needs to be redosed.

Did Rick say this or is this just your assumption? Did you read the post about the generations of flukes that can rise from the dead mother? Did you read how fish can live with a low parasitic load seemingly unaffected for years? I have been battling flukes in my tank for YEARS, and occasionally, usually due to weather, or the addition to a new fish that is not 'used' to flukes that tips the conditions in favour of fluke multiplication. Praziquantal is praziquantal, you can't just 'concentrate' it to make it 'stronger', you can double dose it, you can triple dose it, it doesn't matter what brand it is, if you look at the concentration of the stuff on the side of your jar, you can work out how 'strong' it is, and how much you need to use to dose your tank properly. A single dose will NOT kill all your flukes, no matter what brand of praziquantal you use, multiple doses are needed. I have lost $1000's of dollars worth of fish to fluke over the last few years, I have finally concluded, like Carol, that you need to redose until you cannot see flukes on any scrapes..

For you to understand I will try to explain the mechanism of action of Praziquantal. It parlalyses the musculature of adult flukes (if you really want to know, it increase the flow of calcium ions across the muscle membranes)- this paralysis causes them to release from the host goldfish, they then die because they cannot survive without the host. This is why, in a case of treatment for a known fluke outbreak (as opposed to prophylactic treatment against flukes, like Rick suggested) the regimen is repeated three-four times in the course of a month or so in order to get all the flukes (the ones that were in earier stages of development that do not get affected when the first or second dose was applied).

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-It'd be interesting to see! -do you have camera equipment in your lab?

Unfortunatly I don't. I could probably do the stain but I'm not sure, we usually only have the materials needed for the current lab we're running. Maybe I'll bring a scope home one weekend and give that a try (hopefully campus police won't think I'm a robber!).

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Fish can carry a smaller load of flukes for years - never showing much problem with them. But anytime they run into other problems, they can take them much harder and succumb much faster because of the fluke load. Fluke infested fish do not grow as well, do not breed as well, and in general, do not thrive as fluke-free fish will.

I never treated Smokey and Dot for flukes, unless the amount of praziquantal in the Jungle Labs Parasite Clear tablets would have gotten rid of them. I doubt it, since I think I only did one dose of that. Smokey wasn't as big as Dot, and the second time he got sick he went pretty quick. :cry1

Now I'm wondering if this is something I should consider doing with Dot's tank, since I plan on getting her a tank buddy in the near future. What's the point of QT'ing the new fish in salt and prazi - only to put it in Dot's tank not knowing what could be in there?

Opinions, please? :unsure:

Debbie

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"What's the point of QT'ing the new fish in salt and prazi - only to put it in Dot's tank not knowing what could be in there?"

No point at all - run the Prazi in Dot's tank, also.

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Geek alert!!

So, I'm really wanting to try a scrape and check for flukes now. If my fish have them after having them for as long as I have (from 3 years to 4 months) than I'll definatly always assume my fish have them!

My question is (for anyone who uses a scope) does anyone know if I can fix the sample with cytoseal? If so, I can nab a few slides, coverslips and a bottle of it to bring home, fix the slide then take it to the lab whenever I get a chance.

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I find it comical that some of you think I am disagreeing with you. I am not. :rofl Prazi NEEDS to be redosed, but the frequency is different between the different strengths available. YES...Rick said that, as I quoted twice already in previous posts.

Geez.

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The potential disadvantage of sticking with one treament only, is far greater.

The reason AquaPrazi can be dosed singly, I suppose, is becuz of its strength. The Prazi Pro, however, is not as strong, and needs to be redosed.

Daryl does not use PraziPro - which is a dilute solution - she uses Prazi Quantel which is the pure powder. But, strong or weak, the salient point to understand as Mads and Daryl have pointed out, is that the drug remains active only for a limited period. And any flukes hatching out after this period will not be caught.

It is one thing to argue a point based on your own experience. But entering into an argument with someone knowledgeable, merely on the say-so of someone else, without being experienced yourself or having much of a grip on the fine details, seems to me to be a little contrary and ultimately unhelpful.

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It is one thing to argue a point based on your own experience. But entering into an argument with someone knowledgeable, merely on the say-so of someone else, without being experienced yourself or having much of a grip on the fine details, seems to me to be a little contrary and ultimately unhelpful.

Who's argueing?

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It is one thing to argue a point based on your own experience. But entering into an argument with someone knowledgeable, merely on the say-so of someone else, without being experienced yourself or having much of a grip on the fine details, seems to me to be a little contrary and ultimately unhelpful.

I give up. :rofl But for the record, I dosed AquaPrazi for two weeks continuously recently, to be on the safe side. Rick is a very knowledgable, experienced fish owner, as is Ken of Dandy Orandas, and I do get a lot of my advice from them. I consider them to be reliable sources.

I think the gist of all I was trying to get across, which was very simple or so I thought; is that the AquaPrazi is meant to be dosed in 7 day increments. The Prazi Pro is meant to be dosed in 2-3 day increments. That is literally all I was trying to say. This got blown hugely out of proportion. Sounds like a fight with my husband. We are saying the exact same thing, only in two different ways. :rofl

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For any fellow geeks, I just found the answer to my question

Cytoseal...Usage:Adhesive for permanent mounting of tissue sections and parasitology preparations on glass slides.

:rofl I love how I'm sort of having my own convo with myself on this thread! I'm going to try and pick up the supplies to make the slides tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted.

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:rofl I love how I'm sort of having my own convo with myself on this thread! I'm going to try and pick up the supplies to make the slides tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted.

:rofl Awwww! I'm sorry.

I'm totally going to get a microscope myself. I can't wait to do scrapes! :thumb:

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I'd like an opinion on the question that Debbie asked also. I've never treated Moby and Florence for flukes, as they have been in the same tank together with no other fish, no live plants, etc.

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As to Debbie's question - there are places where you can buy Prazi in a store. However, those are mostly pond stores, and not every pond store carries it. They might be far and wide, so most of us have relied on the internet to get it from there. If you happen to live nearby such a place, I am sure most are willing to let you buy it off their shelves, unless it is merely a warehouse they are running their business out of, and don't allow walk-ins. :) A lot of online stores only operate online, and don't have an actual place for the regular folks - no actual store, just a virtual one, and the product then gets shipped from some wholesaler's or retailer's warehouse.

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If salt dosn't kill them.....what does salt do?

I believe that salt does kill some parasites, such as ich, but does not have any effect on flukes.

Yes that's correct. Dr. J says that "salt is the greatest bath treatment of all time". It is the only thing that is both "tonic to fish and toxic to parasites".

Salting is mandatory when you get new fish. Most people do it. Most don't do prazi, thus the reason I started this thread. A lot of people assume salt kills flukes which it does not.

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That is really interesting. I've never treated any gf for flukes or seen any symptoms. Should I really treat them now despite this?

Are you talking about fishes you have had for while? I would because you have nothing to lose. Unlike the nasty fluke medicine of yesteryear which stressed the goldies tremendously, Prazi Pro is so gentle that there really is no downside anymore to treating as a preventive maintenance.

Rick says ponds should be treated twice a year as it is obviously exposed. He also reccommends treating once a year in "closed" tanks as well.

The only way to know for sure if you have them is to do a scrape and scope like Olivia(RYUU) and others do.

I am amazed at how few goldfish people recommend or even do a scrape and scope. I don't often treat a fish for any kind of parasite unless I know they have them. I have occasionally treated symptomatically, but usually I have my scope out first to see what there is to see. Any treatment is a stressor to fish. Prazi has been a good product because it is less so than other stuff.

I would think parasites in koi and goldies are the same bugzzz and very few of the parasites respond to (ie go away) with salt treatments anymore.

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For any fellow geeks, I just found the answer to my question

Cytoseal...Usage:Adhesive for permanent mounting of tissue sections and parasitology preparations on glass slides.

:rofl I love how I'm sort of having my own convo with myself on this thread! I'm going to try and pick up the supplies to make the slides tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted.

Hi Chrissy, I was just looking cytoseal up on the net. From what I've read it's a xylene-substitute mounting medium, it doesn't actually fix sections, you'll still need to air-dry, or fix/clear to xylene or histolene or whatever you use in your lab (heaven forbid it's chloroform! :thud ) if you're going to use it to permanently mount your slide, if you wanna chat geek, prior to becoming a mum I was a histology scientist! :rolleyes: -so what sorta lab are you working in?

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I've taken to feeding any new goldfish an anti parasite food containing Prazi made by Jungle. Two of the gf were kinda sluggish when I brought them home but after eating the medicated food they got noticeably more active. So I guess it would be good to feed them that every so often even though they appear fine--just to be safe.

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Hi Kristi - is Prazi the only active ingredient? (Rick makes a wormer-food which contains prazi, only) If so, it would catch any internal parasites as well as perhaps gill flukes, which have made their way deep inside the gill tissue. That in conjunction with a Prazi water treament would be very effective.

However, something which I think does need clarifying is that most of the medicated food on sale contains anti-biotics of several types; there is a trend developing here on the board of people using med food (ie MediGold etc.) as a 'pre-caution' or a 'just in case' treament, or even as a tonic to perk the fish up if it seems a little off colour.

This is a very bad practice for two reasons; firstly, if the fish does not actually have any internal bacterial infection, the antibiotics are very harsh on its system and strip away all its natural immunity leaving it without defenses; secondly, a fish can only be exposed to anti-biotics a couple of times before they become ineffective, perhaps at a point when they are really needed. By entering into over-use of anti-biotics, we create very resistant strains of bacteria which will not respond to treament.

MediGold/med-food (other than wormers) should not be used as part of a QT proceedure for this reason.

Footnote: I have a feeling, Kristi, that the Jungle anti-parasite food contains anti-biotics, too. I'm not sure which one you use but maybe you can check the active ingredients?

Edited by Pixiefish

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I've taken to feeding any new goldfish an anti parasite food containing Prazi made by Jungle. Two of the gf were kinda sluggish when I brought them home but after eating the medicated food they got noticeably more active. So I guess it would be good to feed them that every so often even though they appear fine--just to be safe.

IT IS NOT SAFE!!!!!

They probably would have been fine without the meds in your good water after terrible water at the LFs. As Pixie says, if we persist in using medicated antibiotic food as a precaution without reason we open the door to dangerous pathogens getting a foot in the door.

Antibiotics are harsh. They cannot distinguish between good and bad bacteria and they wipe them all out. So there is a point where the fish is completely defenceless after taking the medicated food - it will take the fish another 3 months to rebuild its internal system to the immune strength it was before the antibiotics. It is a temporary safety net that opens up wider holes. Yes you can feed lactobacteria containing foods to help promote re-growth of these bacteria but it takes timeit is not immediate and it is highly likely that a fish may develop a secondary infection (fungus growths are common..much like humans who take antibiotics also very often develop thrush as a side effect after the course is completed).

I strongly recommend you do not give antibiotic food or antibiotic water treatments to fish who do not have bacterial symptoms. Would you take them yourself "as a precaution" ???I hope not! Every time you use the wrong antibiotic/antibiotic for no reason/on a healthy fish you raise the chance of any stray bacteria (that the immune system is built to deal with-its only when they are in huge numbers and immunity is overwhelmed that we should resort to drug treatment) incorporating the antibiotic into its genetic plasmid molecule that will mean when you really need to use that antibiotic it will be ineffective. You are vaccinating the bacteria to the very antibiotic that may have saved its life in the future!!

Whatever happened to good old immunity. That's what needs attention and care. Good water, stress free conditions and excellent nutrition in QT. Yes prazi and salt by all means, these are gentle and prazi is not an antibiotic (antibiotics work on bacteria). Don't use antibiotics in food or the water until you see a symptom that means your fish cannot cope. Antibiotics were invented to tide a person/animal over until immune defence can work efficiently. It takes approx 5 days for a fish to manufacture antibodies which it was made to do. If you dose a fish up with antibiotics when it is healthy YOU ARE SUPRESSING THE IMMUNE SYSTEM exactly when you should be trying to build it up. Temporary fixes are never, never, never, better than longterm ones. Longterm one= strong immunity. The more times you use antibiotics the weaker you are making your fish. Save them for an emergency...please!

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http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=JF173

Pixie--it doesn't really say if that's the only active ingredient. But they have separate food made especially for bacterial infections so I don't know why they'd mix the two. I agree that you should never give antibiotics unless really needed. The anti parasite stuff says it's for internal things like worms, though.

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Jungle anti-parasite meds contains metronidazole which is an antibiotic. It also contains levamisole (for internal worms) and prazi.

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Hi Chrissy, I was just looking cytoseal up on the net. From what I've read it's a xylene-substitute mounting medium, it doesn't actually fix sections, you'll still need to air-dry, or fix/clear to xylene or histolene or whatever you use in your lab (heaven forbid it's chloroform! ) if you're going to use it to permanently mount your slide, if you wanna chat geek, prior to becoming a mum I was a histology scientist! -so what sorta lab are you working in?

Right you are, I do need to fix them first....there goes my grand plan! We use xylene in the lab, but I can't exactly bring that home. I'm a teaching assistant in the university cell lab. I did a lot of cell stuff as an undergrad but I'm pretty rusty since I'm more of an ecologist now, so I'm trying to remember everything in a hurry :P

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