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Overfed Oranda


Smilingfish

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Background before details:

Married to an experienced "fish guy". We have 11 aquariums 10 freshwater & 1 marine. Enjoying my first 29 gallon aquarium of three months but have encountered an issue with my black & orange Oranda. He earlier suffered with an air bladder problem. We placed him in a hosipital tank, fed frozen peas. He recovered wonderfully.

Unfortunately as a fancy goldfish novice I made the newbie mistake of overfeeding him frozen peas this past week. Now he is laying on bottom of the tank, dorsal fin is flat, has fin rot, low activity, white/clearish thin poos, treated tank w/ parasite clear for past 2 days, & began Maracyn today. He is eating tubinex worms. Am I missing something else or is this just a matter of time to see whether he survives. I feel terrible having caused one of my fish such distress.

Thanks in advance.

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Hello Smilingfish - welcome to Kokos and sorry to hear about your fish.

Before we go any further it would really speed things up if you could post back with as many answers from the white diagnosis box at the top of this section. Infact, here, I'll paste it for you:

Please provide the following details when requesting help for Goldfish Problems: Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia Level?

Nitrite Level?

Nitrate level?

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?

Ph Level out of the Tap?

Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?

What is the name and size of the filter/s?

How often do you change the water and how much?

How many fish in the tank and their size?

What kind of water additives or conditioners?

Any medications added to the tank?

Add any new fish to the tank?

What do you feed your fish?

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

Any unusual behavior like staying

at the bottom, not eating, ect..?

You can cut and paste with the answers on your next post.

Just wondering about a couple of other details - was there a specific reason that made you decide to run Parasite Clear and Maracyn?

Also, when you say you overfed, how many peas to you think you fed him at any one time?

With the symptoms you're describing it will be very important to provide your water chem readings. It's likely that the problems are due a bacterial problem rather than too many peas so don't give yourself a hard time.

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Thanks Pixiefish for copying the questions. I had trouble with that earlier today.

Ammonia Level? 0

Nitrite Level? 0

Nitrate level? 0

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? chloramines 0, GH 180, KH 80, pH 7

Ph Level out of the Tap? Same as tank water,

Size of tank how long has it been running? 29 gallon 3 months

What is the name and size of the filter/s? Biowheel 350

How often do you change the water and how much? once a week 20%

How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 5" Orange Oranda, 1 2 1/2" Lionhead, ailing black & orange oranda is 2" for a total of 3

What kind of water additives or conditioners? The water for water changes has ammonia neutralizer made by aqeueon.

Any medications added to the tank? Maracyn 1x today, Parasite clear 1x today

Add any new fish to the tank? no

What do you feed your fish? frozen peas without skin, freeze dried tubifex worms

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? frayed fins, dorsal fin is laying down, shrunken body

Any unusual behavior like staying

at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Staying on the bottom of tank but still eating.

My husband added both medications as we were not sure if it was parasite or bacterial. My fish probably ate 2 to 3 peas without skins.

Hope this helps as I very much appreciate your reply. He is still hanging in there....

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My oranda is none the better today. Perhaps a bit worse. He doesn't seem to want to eat which is concerning. Has anyone had their oranda recover from this???

Thanks again in advance for helping.

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I dont think it was a good idea mixing the meds, that might b making things worse, I also wouldnt medicate without a diagnosis. U r just slightly overstocked so I dont know if that would b the problem or not, also normally u wouldnt have 0 nitrate in a cycled tank. I do in 1 of my tanks but Im not sure why, r u sure ur testkit isnt expired? Hopefully Pixie will b on soon, she'll b able to help u better.

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Hello Smilingfish. Sorry for the New Years gap!

The symptoms you describe - clamped dorsal, white poop, finrot, bottom-sitting, stopping eating - are all in line with bacterial infection, HOWEVER, the 'shrunken body' bothers me as it can be a symptom of some other things, also. So, just a few more Q's:

*Can you briefly describe how long it has taken for your fish to become emaciated?

Can you take a close look at the fish and see if there appears to be any cottony fluff in or around its mouth? If you lift your fish just above the water line it will gape allowing you to see inside it's mouth. Look to see if there is any sign of redness or swelling.

Check the slimecoat - does it look normal? - how about the fins? any red streaking? If so, on which fins?

How do the eyes look? Bulgey? Sunken?

If you look at the fish from behind, can you see the colour inside the gills? red, pale, brownish?

Anything else unusual?

We need to assess this issue carefully as if the cause turned out to be internal worms or TB the treatments required would be very different.

You're already running Maracyn which covers gram positive bac infections but I think that using the Maracyn 2 alongside might be a good idea, as it treats gram negative infections and is quite helpful in fish that will not eat. The fact that the fish originally suffered from what appeared to be a swim bladder problem is important to remember in evaluating all the data.

Can you post back with a little more info, as requested * and meanwhile I will ask Trinket what she thinks about the best course to take. I think we will have to move quickly as once they stop eating things can degenerate quickly.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.......

PS I notice the Nitrate is at zero which should not be the case in a cycled tank. Are you using ammo chips in the filter? Keep a close eye on your water params - check them every day whilst medicating.

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Thank you so much for getting back with me but with great sadness "Little Richard" passed away last night before midnight. When he refused to eat yesterday I knew the end was near. I was so hopeful. Alas, Fiona & Lionel will have the tank to themselves. It has been a rough time for me as I keep going into my study to check on my ailing fish even though he is no longer there. I was so fond of my goofy black hooded orange oranda with black lips.

Prior to his passing his eyes & gills were fine. No white around the mouth. We did not lift him above water to look into his mouth, but would have done so had we known. We are just so inexperienced with such fragile fish. As for his diagonosis, I would agree it was a bacterial infection triggered by his previous air bladder problem as well as my inexperience with feeding goldfish. Yesterday we discussed adding the second antibiotic just in case & planned to purchase today if needed.

My husband explained to me that the Nitrate level was under 20 ppm and the Nitrite level was less than .5ppm. When he ran the test he just said 0 not realizing how prescise you all wanted the readings. This message board is very impressive for his standards. He is an experienced hobbyist with freshwater fish but not goldfish, so my goldfish endeavor is a learning experience for both of us.

Again thank you for your help however it is safe to say Little Richard was too ill for us to have done much good. We did though all we could, and I am comfortable in knowing his death was not in vain.

I look forward to learning more about my new hobby through this forum.

Cheers.

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:cry1 I am so sorry that you lost your fish.

There is more work to keeping goldfish healthy than we realize when we get them. I'm glad you'll be hanging around the forum to learn more. There's so much to learn, and everyone here is so friendly and helpful.

:rip: Little Richard.

Debbie :hug

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Oh that's sad - I'm so sorry. It did sound as if Little Richard had quite an advanced illness - diagnosis can be complicated and time consuming and it was just too late for him. :cry1

But I am glad you're going to stay around the board. You'll learn an enormous amount and your other fish will thrive.

You'll discover that goldfish have very different needs to most tropicals because they have such a high waste output. But they are not highly fragile and once you have a grip on their basic needs you'll find it quite easy. If you look around, you'll find sections specializing in every aspect of their care and everyone will try to help you with any questions you may have.

I'll post some links for you below and look forward to seeing you around the board

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/tensteps.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.

Happy new year,

Pixie

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Smilingfish - I'm hoping you're going to see this as I know the thread is already finished.

I just saw something I should have noticed earlier. You've been feeding your fish Tubifex worms; they are a common host for nematode worms. They multiply in the gut and can cause intestinal blockages which can easily be mistaken as swim bladder disease. Internal parasites often give rise to secondary bacterial infections, and can eventually cause starvation (shrunken, emaciated body) despite the fish continuing to eat.

For this reason I would definitely stop the tubifex worms. It might be worth feeding the survivors with MetroMeds or some other food containing either metronidazole or piperazine to eliminate any growing internal parasites they may also have.

What do the others think?

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Very interesting observation Pixie. I appreciate you adding to the thread. By now I am online with the message board every day-reading & rereading.

The fish have only been fed the tubinex worms @ 4-5x. They are freezedried & sterlized. Would they still be a host for nemotode worms?

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Oh well, that makes it less likely - although I think Trinket did once tell me that even 'sterilized' foods can sometimes be unsafe; I think it's something to do with the reliability of the method used.

The forum is very addictive isn't it?!

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Sorry, SmilingFish.... I know how hard it is to see a goldfish suffer :( Your screen-name seems a bit ironic, now. (I don't mean to offend.)

Pixie~ Can bloodworms be a host for these nasty parasites, too? Because I feed those to my zebra danios fairly regularly, with no ill affects as of now.

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