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Mark_C

Comet Not Opening Mouth Fully, Trouble Eating

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sorry, I just quickly scanned this before going away today, I noticed you're planning on PP.. you mentionied hsving the light on, I would suggest you leave your light off during the treatment as light degenerates the PP and it wont be as effective, -you can tell when it has lost its effecdtiveness when it turns brown instead of that lurid purple colour. at work we used to store our PP solutions in brown glass jars to reduce oxidation. gotta go, baby wrangling, will be back at the end of the weekend.

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Yep thats another precaution. If you read Ranchu-girl's PP link I pasted it covers everything else I think.

When you get to the LFS take a sample of your water in a glass vial or jar and they will test everything for free (KH, GH. nitrates etc. )Its always useful to do that occasionally to check your own kits are still active.

The ceramic noodles and carbon will be fine in a semi covered bucket with air..bubbles that pop at the surface....must have oxygen to survive.

Yes you can set up the little tank. Actually PP is a disinfectant so you can leave it sitting in that for a day and nuke everything.

Last thing (Im at work) if you are sure you want to dose the whole tank even though the 2 other fish are not showing symptoms yet

make sure you do a very large w/c first. Maybe 80% not 60%. The alternative is to use the little tank and just do Splash. The salt alone might be enough for the other 2 I was thinking.

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This thread may also be useful to read where Daryl describes how to disinfect a tank.

Link for disinfecting using PP

If the tank has been empty longer than a few months or so all you need to is wash everything in a solution of bleach. 1 part bleach to 9 parts water and rinse and rinse till you cant smell any bleach at all. Maybe easier and works.

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Latest updates.

I had already carried out a 60% change before I saw your post Trinket, I have placed the noodles, sponges and carbon cartridges in a 10 litre bucket, filled with tank water (the .1% salt mix) I took out at change.

I vac'd the gravel really well too

I bought a new 3 speed air pump for the main tank, and the air stone is going great now, I used the old small one with 2 little airstones in the filter bucket, and put the whole lot in the dark cabinet under the tank.

The main tank only has some new floss pads in it now so it should filter particles at least.

I just rinsed and wiped the small tank out well, then filled with tank water (.1% salt) and currently have put the plants in there, have not done the small filter yet

As I did the water change I added .1% salt to each bucket before I poured it in, it was a bit time consuming but I thought it would be better to make sure they didn't have any change in salinity.

I have now also added the second dose of salt soe they are now at .2%

they seemed a bit shocked at first and they all backed away from the shiny cloud and tried to hide, but within a few moments all was well.

I have the PP from the fish shop, the guy has reccomended a dose of 20ml per 100 litres of tank water, and to leave it for 4-16 hours before doing a water change, he said ot to do more than that, and if they need another dose to wait a week before doing it again.

So I am a bit unsure what way to go with this, it is their own bottled PP that I got, so could it be the mix ration is different to whatr Ranchu_girl has written about?

I was wondering whether I should do the next salt dose, and let them settle in that overnight before adding the PP as well, I don't want to shock them by changing too many things at once

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Just thinking about those instructions, and trying to do some math

20ml per 100 Litres is a dosage of just 0.0002%

Is that correct?

I am a bit confused between what the fish shop guy has reccomended for the PP he sells, and what Ranchugirl is reccomending, I guess we don't know what strength he has mixed the PP up at, could be this solution is stronger

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Mmm..I haven't lived in the metric world for 15 years..

Its easier fro me if we convert to gallons and teaspoons. One teaspoon being 5ml so 4 = 20

Well 100 liters is 26 gallons approx, 105 quart. according to the conversion chart.. so 4 teaspoons

to 26 US gallons would be 0.006.5?????Oh...not what you make it.. :P

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I am even more confused now :wacko:

I suppose I should add at the dosage rate he advised, as he mixed the stuff up.

But what about his advice to only treat once for 4-16 hours then not again for a week? should I do this or once each day for 3 days?

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Sorry! I am not good at math and we may need someone else here to finalise all this. I can get someone to take a look if you want.

I suppose you can trust him. Maybe its a higher dose for a shorter time. In a way that would be better as the shorter time your media is out the better. If I were you btw I would add some of the( top layer only ) gravel to that bucket too...all the bbs will get nuked in the tank. Most of the good ones are only in the top inch.

So you are now at 0.2%. How are the fish? Remember when you add the PP either soon or at the 0.3% stage rmember to watch closely for about 20 mins. Any flashing, gasping at the surface or bottom sitting that lasts for longer than afew secs you may need to remove the fish (Im thinking the 2 that are okay at the moment) .Im sure it will be fine.

Edited by Trinket

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The fish seem perfectly happy at 0.2% salt, they went a bit scared for the first few seconds, and one darted round the tank for a moment, but they settled almost immediately (the one who darted round is a bit hyperactive anyway)

I am nervous about adding this stuff, and I am sure thye dosage he reccomended will be safe, but what I am wondering about is whether it will be enough to treat the fish, the difference is with him saying only one application, as if it doesn't work and I have to wait another week I am unsure about what condition Splash will be in by then.

On the other side if I use his dosage and treat him 3 days in a row it may kill him anyway, I hate having to make a descision like this.

Do you think I should put the 3rd salt dose in at the same time as the PP? will that be OK? it is due for the salt later tonight, so that would give me a better time for the PP too, as I can leave it overnight and water change in the morning (assuming it is only 1 pp treatment)

How long should I keep the salt level up at .3% for too?

If you could get anyone else to have a look and see what they think with regards dosage etc it would be very helpful, I could use all the advice I can get.

And thanks again for all the help so far, it's really kind of you

Edited by Mark_C

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Okay I will get someone else along abit later...but you have to wait a bit.....Mods dont get on till about 10 pm my time= another 5 hours from now. I will just say this....you do not need to go up to 0.3% salt with the PP. The PP doeas all that the salt does and more.

I should leave the salt at 0.2%.for a week. Its plenty to help the fish heal and with the PP coming. The reason he said try agian in a week would probably because he hasnt ruled out parasites that lay their eggs and the eggs take 5 day or so to hatch so you would be nuking those eggs a week later I presume. I dont think we are talking about parasites here though.

Did he use the crystals or powder?

Edited by Trinket

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Thanks, I will be here all night, and I will probably be awake for most of it if I do the PP tonight too watching the fish

I am not sure what he used, they have just started packaging and selling their own range of products, so it is already mixed as liquid in a bottle, Thats why I wondered if it was a stronger dose than what Ranchugirl had written about

I will leave the salt level as is for now then, and just make sure that when I water change I add the correct amount back in.

His comments were that it would harm the fish to dose more than once per week, that got me a bit worried

Edited by Mark_C

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Then it may be a short sharp treatment at a slightly higher level.

One thing that is nice and comforting to know about PP is that you can almost instantly deactivate it with the active ingredient in de-chlorinator (sodium theosulfite). So if something went wrong (poured in too much or something) that is worth knowing. A few capfuls of your de-chlor will totally deactivate it turning it from purple (active) to a slight amber brown color (inactive).

If you knew the exact potency of what he gave you and were not comfortable with that, you can dilute PP with distilled water. All it is anyway is the PP powder plus distilled water. Lets get some more opinions.

I've been reading about PP and it does seem there are only 2 basic doses for the bath treatment. High 0.04 or low 0.02. In extreme cases the effect of high levels can burn/damage gills and fins. It is caustic. The lower dose does seem to be very gentle. Lets get another opinion here. I'll see who I can holler..don't worry the salt is helping meanwhile for sure. I will be on late here too.

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Mark I havent seen anyone online right now that I know for sure is experienced with PP. I'll give it another few hours but will have to go then. I left a comment in your profile page- did you see it?

My thoughts right now are that if he is selling these bottles the directions must be accurate and the dosage suitable and you should trust him.

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Hi yes got your comment thanks, I couldn't work out how to reply.

i will hold off a little longer in case you can get some ideas, if no luck I will try it tonight or in the morning.

if it seems overdosed or there are problems will Prime water conditioner de-activate it? that is what I use to de-chlorinate

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Yes Prime is perfect. Its the best one for the job actually.

To write a comment you find Add Comment and press ^ and a box appears to add your message. Then press save to save it. If you need to reach me fast.

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I use double doses of prime as the water here ca be a bit chloriney, I guess that won't affect my dosage or he would have mentioned it, I think I will give it a go now, that way I can keep an eye on them for a few hours

He also said to top up with a few drops if it starts to turn brown too quickly (less than 4 hours) so I guess I need to really spend some time watching this one.

Fingers crossed, I hope it works OK, I am really nervous about it

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Hold on just one sec Mark. I have PMd a Mod to take alook at this and she may be along in aminute. Just wait a few more mins...

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I will hold out till the morning now, in case I get any other suggestions, better not leave it too long though as he has gone without food for a long time now

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I am so sorry noone has been able to get to you. I think you should go ahead if you can watching carefully. Remember to remove the water when it changes color the treatment is finished. The time varies. Good luck. Dont worry all will be fine I am sure.

Edited by Trinket

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That's Ok, it was worth waiting a little longer, will do it soon.

How big a water change should I do after it changes colour? is 25-30% OK or does it need more?

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Until the color goes back to normal. If you are unsure of colors get a white piece of paper and hold it next to the tank -its a tip to clear your eyes and get an accurate vision of shades.

I am trying to remember doing this myself. It was quite some time ago. I think the purple color went orange brown faster than I thought and oxidisation properties were used up. As Mads said it depends on the strength of the oxidisation in the bottle.

Again I am very sorry everyone must have been busy and there was no second opinion here. You'll have to trust me and your fish man :)

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That's Ok Trinket, I understand people may be busy, and I already really appreciate all the time you have all given to help me.

The PP is in the tank now, I think it may be quite strong as it's quite dark in colour, they look like they are swimming in blackcurrant juice, I followed his dosage of 20ml per 100 Litres.

They seem happy enough so far, they are not behaving abnormally, they are swimming trhough the bubble curtain a bit though, I have turned the air pump to maximum to make sure there is plenty of air.

I can watch them for the next hour, then I have to get the kids to school, but will be back quickly and will be here all day so I can keep an eye on them.

Fingers crossed I hope this cures him.

As a next step should I also put the 3rd dose of salt in after I finish with the PP? or leave them at .2%?

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Actually it's not as bad as it fist looked, it only looks dark because the lights are off and the tank is very dark, I just pulled a little drop out for a look and it is nowhere near as strong in colour as it looks through the tank glass.

From above the filter pads it almost looks like it is starting to go brown-ish already, but I suppose going though the filter pad it has lots to oxidise at that point, the fish shop guy did say to add more if it changed too quickly, so I will ring them at 9am when they open and see if he can give me some more information on strength etc

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Thats a very good sign that the fish are active and swimming. Usually reactions are within the first 20 mins after adding.I am hoping very much that the PP will totally kill any pathogens in Splash's mouth and around that area. Also in the gravel and tank. After that and for the healing process you will need the salt yes. You can think of the salt like savlon on a wound.

After the large w/c to rid of the PP you'll need to add the salt back slowly however much you took out. If that is a 50% water change you'll need to add back 45 teaspoons etc..leave the salt at 0.2% and then add up to 0.3% 12 hours later. Leave it at this strength for about 4 days total still doing at least one w/c in the middle of that time. Then, begin to phase all the salt out via the daily small partial water changes. For longterm health clean ,clear water and a good varied diet is your best bet.

Let us know how it all goes. I havekids to get to school now too and then work. Back later this afternoon and will check on progress :thumb:

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