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Help Save Smokey, My Shubunkin Goldfish!


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Hello, :)

I brought the salt to .15% yesterday... I guess that's how you'd put it... It's not quite .2%, but to put 1.5% would be quite a bit of salt! I realized that I make math difficult for myself by over-thinking things through. I have a tendancy to over-analyze most things anyway. :rolleyes:

The fish were doing fine until earlier today when Dot started bottom sitting again. She's just hovering now, about an inch above the gravel with her dorsal fn down. Smokey's fin is down, too - but he's moving around a little. Slowly, but he's moving.

I haven't had a chance to get the Melafix yet, as things have been a bit hectic. :( Hopefully tomorrow.

I had stopped testing the water daily, since the readings were always fine, and instead tested every other day - just before wc's. (Last one was yesterday - 30%, and added 10 tsp salt) But Dot is on the bottom now, and Smokey looks like he's gulping at the surface. I think I'll go test it now - so I'll stop worrying about there being something wrong with the water.

Take care everyone! :heart

Debbie

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Finicky fish... :blink:

I tested the water, and it was fine... Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-0 and pH 7.8. I was going to just leave them, and hope they just needed to get used to the salt in the water.

Dot apparently didn't like that idea.

About an hour ago, she started zooming all over the tank, up - down - across - bumping into the walls, plants, gravel.... She looked like a ball in a pinball machine game. :krazy: I did an immediate 60% water change, and their dorsal fins are up again. Well, Smokey's is halfway - which is "up" for him.

So - it seems Dot bottom sits when the salt goes in, and Smokey bottom sits when the salt comes out. I'll definitely get the Melafix tomorrow.

Have I mentioned that I can't wait to get them in the bigger tank? :ignore

:heart Debbie

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Shoot Debbie, it seems like they just can't make up their minds, huh? There was a post in the 911 forum about a fish doing that, and I thought Trinket mentioned stress, but there were a lot of other issues there with a pleco.

Hows your hubby doing with that stand? I'm of a thought that you're going to need to get them out of that 10 gallon and into a bigger tank pretty soon maybe. Hopefully someone will chime in here and help you out quickly.

If its not one thing its another one, huh? :o

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Debs hun, if the salt is stressing them and its hard to keep track of stop doing it and give them some down time in good old perfect water. It must be at least a week in salt anyway surely??That's plenty enough. If the fins are still bad you can try the melafix after a mini break. I hope the large tank can be set up soon- fins crossed! :goodluck

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Hi Gals, :)

"Fins crossed" :teehee

Still nothing going on with the stand/tank. I'm getting very frustrated with it, but if I mention anything - he'll be sure to let it sit longer. That's how he is. :blink:

Trinks, I put Melafix in the tank already today. I got it this morning. Since I was going to the petstore, I figured I'd bring some tank water and have it tested - mostly to get the salt tested. I was afraid maybe my math was way off, and they had way too much salt in there. Here are their "results": Ammonia - 1.0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - 0, pH - 8.4, Hardness - 300, Chlorine - 0, Alkalinkity 180 - 300 (why such a variant?), Salt - .04. I was relieved that the salt was that low, but I was floored by the Ammonia - as I had tested it last night and it was 0. As soon as I got home, I took more water from the tank and tested it both the API test kit AND an Ammonia test strip. API was 0, and the strip was between 0 and .25 - which is where it always is when the API shows 0. Also, my pH is almost always 7.8 with the API, and occasionally just between 7.8 and 8.0 - which is what the test kit said when I got home.

I don't know what to think now. Was the vvvv test just wrong? Isn't 300 for hardness quite high? I don't know what to think of the alkalinity. I also don't know if I want to believe the salt content. :krazy: The rest of MY tests were Nitrite - 0, and Nitrate 0+. Higher than 0, not quite 5 - but I did the big water change last night, so I'm not surprised (not this time, anyway ^_~)

Oh!! He told me that my water changes are too frequent, and that by doing them so often I'm "feeding the ammonia" - and that's why it's so high. But two seconds later he tells me that Shubunkins are dirty fish, and will foul up the water quickly. Hello..???? But I think he must have used a dirty tube or something, if two other tests were no where near 1.

The fish seem fine today, though. Should I keep up the Melafix now that I've started it? And watch them for any reactions?

Dot's tail... those spots that I had mentioned. I only see one now, on her tail. It almost looks like a big white spot, almost like the tail "bunched up" there. It looks.. thick - like. It's about the size of the head of a pin, so it's not huge, but it looks a little bigger than when I first noticed it. Maybe the Melafix will help that, too?

Thank you gals, for your constant support, help and friendship. :heart It means so much to me. :grouphug

Sorry I'm so "bummed" lately. Just so much going on (and NOT going on *cou- FISH TANK - gh*) has me kind of blue.

Debs

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:) Hey Debs!

Trinket is lurking around here somewhere, so I'm sure she'll stop by and check on you. Geez, these people at the lfs just give me a burn!! :wa How could anybody that has any idea what they are talking about actually say that water changes will "feed the ammonia"?! :stupid: I, also, had to endure a hectoring lecture from the woman that owns the lfs here about how dirty goldies are and that I'd never have a nice clean tank. I'd have told her to shove off, but its the only place in town that sells Prime and has the supplies I need unless I want to drive 25 miles into the city.

Your tank is cycled, right? I don't see how your nitrates could be 0. I don't think I'd sweat a lot over the ph, because I've read on here that even if its a little high, as long as its not too low its not a life-threatening thing. Probably Trinket or someone could give you a little insight as to what the spot on Dot could be.

I've got an idea for your hubby situation. Start shoring up the stand yourself. Seriously. I don't care if you've never hammered a nail in your life. Either he won't be able to stand the "shoddy" job you're doing and will jump in to show you how much better he can do it, or you'll figure out how to get it done yourself. :exactly Geez, I'm so glad I don't have one of those critters anymore. Its so much easier to depend on myself to get things done. :tomuch:

Don't be down, Debs. I'm sure someone will be along here quickly and give you some ideas. :bighug

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Hi Vix!

Yes, my tank is cycled. But the Nitrates are usually at 5, so when I do a big water change, it drops it to 0. The 60% water change had only been done about 8 hours before I tested the water, so it showing at 0 would be normal.

I should get myself a salt test kit of my own. Jack of Hearts had told me of a few earlier in this thread. I should go back and see how expensive they are. :unsure:

The thing with starting the stand myself, is that he'd just let me do it all myself, and when I ran into problems, he'd say "Too bad. You couldn't wait for me, so figure it out yourself.". And he'd mean it, too. :ignore I'd better stop there... This isn't the place for venting. :madrant:rolleyes:

Thank you so much for the big hug! I sure need them!! :heart:exactly:heart

Debs

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Hi girls. Well I have tried to absorb as much of what you say (and that confusing LFS person said) and will try and tackle as much as I can Debs. I have a cold right now and my head is a bit fuzzled so I may only be firing on one (bossy :lol2 ) cylinder but I will have stab.

First of all the alkalinity thing. It is hard to measure it exactly with cheap kits. As long as you have alkalinity over 100 you are good to go for a looooong time with stable pH and adequate buffering capacity. Yours is in the top range which is just fine as long as it doesn't go over 300 which can cause gill damage. No worries, this is a fine reading.

I think personally it may be not the salt but the larger water changes that are scary for the fish. In a 10 gallon 2 fish have very little room to go hide when that water comes crashing in and I find with smaller tanks the fish do seem more nervous at water changes than in a very large tank.

About the cycle. I think the tank is cycled but its on a threshold and you should take care not to do too many large water changes. I once read a nice little rule that applies to tanks that are cycled and averagely stocked. Water change amount should be based on a daytile (my word heehe) up to 9 ;that means that if it has been 2 days since the last change you can safely change 20%. 3 days since the last change? You can safely change 30% and so on up to 9. Everyone should do at least one change within 9 days so thats why it only goes up to 9.

Of course this daytile has to be used with caution because some tanks are heavily and overstocked. Well, I think yours probably is at the moment but as a basic guideline its kinda useful. As you have 2 shubbys in there you could adapt the tile to another rule for yourself. For example every 2 days 30% etc. The point is you should work out a regular system that the tank and the fish get use to. They dont like change and irregularity. Thats stressful. I think every second day at 3o% might be a good measure for you but a lot depends on feeding regime too an dso you will have to be the ultimate decider. You are looking for a water changing program that gives you small amounts of nitrate and zero of the other 2.

One very important rule of thumb is temperature attention. Your bbs are not truly abundant yet (its impossible at this stage of cycling- an 'established' tank I think of as bbs that have been colonised for a year or more) The bacter bbs are especially sensitive to change (those large water changes?) The nitrobacter bacs that convert nitrites to nitrates will go to sleep in cold water, too salty water, medicated water, under oxygenated water or even too warm water.

Im so sorry about the tank. As we have all agreed that is the best longterm solution for thse fins really. They may not heal completely till the fish are less crowded although melafix is now your best hope. Do stop the salt, I think on etreatment is enough here. You can phase it out safely, I think it'll help nip the ammoni issue (if there was one) in the bud.

Can you try another tac? Candlelit dinner for two..his fave meal..a little bit of wine and a promise (with a signature) in return???

Oh and quick edit: coupla these :hug:hug

Edited by Trinket
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Hey Trinks!

I'm so sorry that you're not feeling well!! :ill I hope you feel better soon!!!

I won't worry about the numbers from the lfs then. The fish seem happy! It was funny, but when I went to put the Melafix in, I "showed it' to Dot and said "I have some new medicine for you!" and she shook her head like "Oh pleaaaaaase no!!!" :D

With the water changes, my fish love them. They aren't afraid of the vacuum, so I have to be careful of them when cleaning the gravel. And for the water going back IN the tank, I "prepare" the water in my 3 gallon bucket - with the dechlorinator (Stress Coat), then use the vacuum to put it into 3 one gallon water jugs. I pour the water in the tank from that - but I do it slow so it makes bubbles. They love to swim through the bubbles or just sit there and let the bubbles splash over them. As the water gets higher, Dot will see my other hand resting on the rim of the tank, and go over for "kisses" - so I'll put my finger in for kisses. :heart A few times she has pushed Smokey up to do the same. He does it, but not as much as her.

I usually do 30% wc's every other day. That seemed to work out best - but I could try going a third day and see what happens. Actually, I did that when I went to my nephews wedding last month, and the water was still fine. I'll give that a try and see how it goes.

As for temps, I'm pretty sure that the water temp from the tap is about the same as the house temp, which is about 80?F. Just before Smokey got sick, we had some REALLY hot days that the AC just couldn't seem to keep up. The house AND the tank got to 84?. I tried putting and ice pack on one side of the tank to try to cool it off - but I couldn't get it to stay up there. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the suggestions on the tank stand, but he eats dinner with the tv, so it would be dinner for three no matter what. I think this is a job for a back massage. He likes those, and can be a bit nicer after. I'm far too ticklish for a massage, so I don't see how people enjoy them. :wacko: He has three days off this week (no days next week) so I'll see what I can do, and we can all keep our "fins crossed" :rofl (I LOVE that!!)

Thank you for the hugs!!!!!!!!! :heart:hug

You gals have cheered me up quite a bit tonight!! Thank you!! :thanks:flowers

Debs

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Hey everybody! Haha-this has turned into a "lets get Deb's tank up thread"! Men. :lol2 Well, do the back massage if you think it will work Debbie! Anything to get that tank up.

Moby and Florence also love water changes. They will hang at the side of the tank waiting for me to pour the water in and deliberately stay in the water flow. I showed my son and daughter-in-law how they would eat peas from my hand the other night. My d-i-l was enchanted...she loved it. My son said "Mom, have you lost your mind?" in a joking way, but I think he was actually wondering. He's one of these its just a fish people. I told him I could go on the computer and show him people from all over the world who felt the same way I do about their fish. He thinks if you can't pet it, walk it, or ride it, then its not a pet. Sheesh. Like I said. Men. :madrant

Trinket I'm so sorry you don't feel well. :sick I usually get a terrible cold or bronchitis right about this time each year when the weather changes. I hope you start feeling better soon.

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Quick Melafix question..

When I do a water change, do I have to replace the Melafix taken out?

I don't know if I like the smell or not. It reminds me of a dandruff shampoo that my son used to buy where he got his hair cut. :rolleyes: Funny thing though, I think it had a tree on the front of the bottle.

When I saw "tea tree oil", I pictured a tree with tea bags hanging off it, like fruit. :D

Vix - that is too funny about your son and daughter in law. When my daughter started teaching this school year, I didn't hear from her for about a week. The first thing she said to me when I talked to her was "How is Smokey? I've been so worried about him!". I was quite surprised, since they live about an hour away, and she and my son in law come visit about once or twice a month.

Kids will surprise you!

The fishies are doing fine so far. I tried to get some pics of Dot's tail, but I don't know how to download pics off the camera - so I'll have to wait for Missy (my "photographer" ;) ) to see if they're any good - and show the spot on her tail.

Well, my pillow is calling me, so I'll talk to you gals soon! :heart

:hug

Debs

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Debs hi!! You should replace the melafix you took out -approximately is okay. Remember no longer than a week with that.

Hope all is still well!

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Trinks!!! :hi

The puppy you have for your avatar is soooo cuuuute!!!

Things are going fine.. A little TOO fine. Since the Melafix says to do a water change after 7 days, I figured I would watch the water params each day and do a change when things got high. Well, the last water change was Saturday night/Sunday morning (the wee hour of 2am), and today (Wednesday) my ammonia is still 0, nitrites are still 0, nitrates are almost at 5, and pH is 7.8. When it all came out so low, I tested the ammonia again with an ammonia test strip and I got the same result I usually do with the strip when the API drop test says 0. (Strip says between 0 and .25) Isn't that a bit strange for the size tank - and the fact that the directions for the Melafix said to take the filter cartridge out? Or does the Melafix somehow help all of that somehow? :hmm

The fish don't seem to be minding the Melafix at all. The tank is just a bit cloudy though, is that normal? It got that way after the second dose. Today is the 4th dose, so Saturday will be the last one. (Sunday was the first)

I think I actually got a decent picture of the spot on Dot's tail... but they didn't get taken off of the camera yet. I need to figure out how to do that!! :exactly

I made chocolate chip cookies for hubby today. That may go over better than a back massage. He loves my chocolate chip cookies. :Scoff:

My internet was out for just over 24 hours. My poor daughter was having withdrawals. :rofl The cable company is installing new cable through the neighborhood, and when they did that, they damaged our cable wire. Nice to know that we have such intelligent people handling our cable lines! :blink:

Well, I think that's about all that's new for now.

How is the cold, Trinks? I hope you're doing better!! :heart

:hug

Debs

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The puppy avator has gone already Debs :whatjust: I'm getting restless avator syndrome or something. This one is one of my fry and I just thought maybe fish pics are better for afish forum..but yeah that was a cute puppy I borrowed off the internet! . And you are sweet to ask after my cold. Its a lot better thanks. At that stage where you can breathe again and just a sort of drying out feeling.

Now, about the water. That is a great thing that there are no problems. Its quite normal once the feeding routine and cycle are settled, not to get ammonia or nitrites! But you still need to do at least one weekly change to replenish trace minerals that the fish need and may have used up and to be rid some of the excretions and bacteria in the water that are accumulating.

I'm glad the melafix is helping. Hope all is still well and that tank can be set up soon :D

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Hi Trinks!

I'm glad your cold is doing better!! And your fry is adorable!! There's nothing wrong with changing your avatar. It's something new to look at. :D

Have you ever typed out something to post.. then check it in the preview - then STUPIDLY tried to fix a mistake IN the preview? It wipes out the whole thing!!! :krazy: That's what I just did. :wall

Anyway

I put the last dose of Melafix in yesterday, and did a 30% water change today. They seemed to be perkier after the water change. Smokey will probably bottom sit overnight, because the water is different now, but he'll perk up when the food comes. :exactly

Dot's fins have healed, and that white spot on her tail is a bit smaller than it was. Smokey's fins are much better, but there is no difference in his tail - that I can see. I read your post in another thread about what causes fins to tear, etc., and I guess I've got a few of those obstacles with my tank.

Still nothing with the tank stand. :cry1 The other day he asked me why I haven't cleaned the tank yet. I told him that I'm waiting for the stand. I don't see a reason to clean it, only to put it back on the floor and wait for the stand. He said he was going to do it last Thursday, but didn't. He doesn't have a day off of work this week, but has three days next week. I'll keep my fins crossed for then. :blink:

I'll keep you posted!

Debbie :heart

(I apologize for any typo's... I'm NOT going to mess with the preview this time! :rolleyes: )

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