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Help Save Smokey, My Shubunkin Goldfish!


Fishy Fish

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Hi again Fishyfish. Glad to see Smokey up and about. I think getting back on track with your water quality has helped him enormously. Well done. However I see the medicated food you have there is for parasitic infection. I think you need to get another medicated food for bacterial infection. Sorry but the Jungle lab food if I am not mistaken contains prazi,metro and levamisole. Best for internal parasites. What you need is either Medigold containing oxylinic acid and kanimacin (excellent for bacterial infection) OR even better and stronger Metromed containing a stronger level of metronidazole and also oxytetracycline. Are you able to get either of these? There is also another new gelfood out there containing the oxytetracycline which would work just as well. I'll find a link for you in a mo...

As JofH says, only the medicated food nothing else.With antibiotic foods the fish have to eat a certain amount of their body weight for it to be effective, this is easier done for small fish as your 2 are.

Now about the swelling and the mouth problems. First of all congrats on getting not only a pic posted but also a video :thud How about that :D . In the vid I cannot see any bloating but I realise that it is very difficult to see swelling in a fish unless it is your own fish where you know whats normal and what isn't.

I can however still see some cottony stuff coming out of Smokeys mouth and that alongside the bloating and the fact that your other fish was doing some strange chewing or something with his mouth suggests to me that as I said before your fish have an internal bacterial infection caused by the flexibacter gram neg bacteria that is common in aquariums but attacks fish with low immunity (when they are weak) and stressed. This is not a fungus it is a chronic bacterial invasion that enters through the mouth and causes damage inside the fish which produces the swelling.

It needs treating. Fortunately you are doing all the right things so far, except I would change the medicated food soon as you can. The water must be spot on and those gravel vacs need to be done over and over to keep organic waste in the tank to an absolute minimum. You see with any infection the fish are vulnerable to more infections as their immunity is impaired.

What are your water readings today? Ammonia and nitrite and nitrate? We really need to know those figures and they need to be monitored daily with a sick fish. Any spike in ammonia or nitrite will set the healing way back.

With perfect water and low bacterial load, antibiotic food that goes straight to the problem area inside(where water borne meds will not for internal columnaris) and some epsom salt to reduce the swelling you are I think doing what you can. Already there are improvements.

Do you know how to add some epsom salt?

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I couldn't edit. Fishyfish- can you just confirm which food you have there?

This onejungleantibact.jpg?

Or this onejungleantipar.jpg?

If its the first thats fine-my mistake- I just wanted to double check with you.

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Hi again Fishyfish. Glad to see Smokey up and about. I think getting back on track with your water quality has helped him enormously. Well done. However I see the medicated food you have there is for parasitic infection. I think you need to get another medicated food for bacterial infection. Sorry but the Jungle lab food if I am not mistaken contains prazi,metro and levamisole. Best for internal parasites. What you need is either Medigold containing oxylinic acid and kanimacin (excellent for bacterial infection) OR even better and stronger Metromed containing a stronger level of metronidazole and also oxytetracycline. Are you able to get either of these? There is also another new gelfood out there containing the oxytetracycline which would work just as well. I'll find a link for you in a mo...

They are getting the anti-bacterial food. I do have both, from when I was told last month that he had an internal parasite - but I made sure to keep that away so I wouldn't grab the wrong bottle. :) It has sodium sulfa-- something that's too small to make out (bad eyes) and nitrofurazone. Is that okay? It doesn't contain the medications that you mentioned, but it does say that it's for internal bacterial infections. I asked the salesgirl if they had any other anti-bacterial food, and she said no. I can check out mmm's website, and possibly the store itself. Sometimes there's more in the store than what's on a website.

As JofH says, only the medicated food nothing else.With antibiotic foods the fish have to eat a certain amount of their body weight for it to be effective, this is easier done for small fish as your 2 are.

Now about the swelling and the mouth problems. First of all congrats on getting not only a pic posted but also a video :thud How about that :D . In the vid I cannot see any bloating but I realise that it is very difficult to see swelling in a fish unless it is your own fish where you know whats normal and what isn't.

I can however still see some cottony stuff coming out of Smokeys mouth and that alongside the bloating and the fact that your other fish was doing some strange chewing or something with his mouth suggests to me that as I said before your fish have an internal bacterial infection caused by the flexibacter gram neg bacteria that is common in aquariums but attacks fish with low immunity (when they are weak) and stressed. This is not a fungus it is a chronic bacterial invasion that enters through the mouth and causes damage inside the fish which produces the swelling.

I wondered that, too - if she was getting it in her mouth, and it was feeling odd to her, and she did that as a reflex or something. And that would explain the swelling. I feel awful thinking that he's been sick all this time when the gentleman at the TetraCare support group told me to feed him anti-bacterial food back when he was first sick. I listened to the salesgirl and bought the water treatment. I wasn't doing the water changes as frequently though, so I guess it was all needed. And I never would have found this marvelous forum with all of you fabulous people! :)

It needs treating. Fortunately you are doing all the right things so far, except I would change the medicated food soon as you can. The water must be spot on and those gravel vacs need to be done over and over to keep organic waste in the tank to an absolute minimum. You see with any infection the fish are vulnerable to more infections as their immunity is impaired.

What are your water readings today? Ammonia and nitrite and nitrate? We really need to know those figures and they need to be monitored daily with a sick fish. Any spike in ammonia or nitrite will set the healing way back.

The readings today were Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate - looked a little darker than the yellow, but not orange enough to get up to the next level. Sort of inbetween.

With perfect water and low bacterial load, antibiotic food that goes straight to the problem area inside(where water borne meds will not for internal columnaris) and some epsom salt to reduce the swelling you are I think doing what you can. Already there are improvements.

Do you know how to add some epsom salt?

I love the improvements! :D It's so great to see him up and around again. I just sit by the aquarium and watch him go around!

No, I don't know how to add Epsom salt. I've never used it, but I have some. I bought some, because I was told to give him an Epsom salt bath, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Do you know if the infection would itch, or be uncomfortable? Today he kept swimming up to the glass. It looked like he kept trying to kiss his reflection, but I wondered if it was itching or something, and he was trying to scratch at it?

Thank you so much for all the information. JoH catching that in Smokey's mouth may have found exactly what is wrong with him!!

Thank you, everyone!! :grouphug

Debbie

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I would think it would be uncomfortable yes and might make him do that. I dont know if fish feel exactly itchy Lol very good point!

The epsom salt is really a tonic. It isn't harsh on the fish in any way and the dosage is so very low it is worth a try. The dosage is only 1/8th of a TEASPOON per 5 gallons of tank water. So you see its really not a big issue and certainly seems to ease and comfort any swelling. Its up to you. I think I'd try. Number one is the food of course which will hopefully eventually get to the root of the matter.

If by chance you can get the stronger antibiotic food- do. If by chance this one doesn't help you can always try the stronger one when you finish this course aftera few days break.

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I would think it would be uncomfortable yes and might make him do that. I dont know if fish feel exactly itchy Lol very good point!

The epsom salt is really a tonic. It isn't harsh on the fish in any way and the dosage is so very low it is worth a try. The dosage is only 1/8th of a TEASPOON per 5 gallons of tank water. So you see its really not a big issue and certainly seems to ease and comfort any swelling. Its up to you. I think I'd try. Number one is the food of course which will hopefully eventually get to the root of the matter.

Thank you for the instructions, Trinket. I'll try it tomorrow, so I can watch the tank. It seems very mild. :)

The forum I was on before I found this one told me to mix 2 - 3 tsps of Epsom salt in 1 gallon of water, and put him in that for 5 minutes - 4 times a day - but to take him out if he started to look worse. He couldn't have looked any worse, so I didn't want to risk that.

I like your way a whole lot better!! :exactly

If by chance you can get the stronger antibiotic food- do. If by chance this one doesn't help you can always try the stronger one when you finish this course aftera few days break.

They have that food on mmm's website, so they probably have it in the store. I'll check it out as soon as I can. I don't quite understand how they'll eat it, but we'll see what happens!

I can't tell you how heartwarming it is to see him swimming around. Dot even pecked at his chin today while they were swimming together, like she kissed him. It was so sweet. :heart

Thank you again, Trinket!

Debbie

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You're welcome hun. All we all want is to see your fish completely better and the little glimpses of improvement you tell us about warm my heart!

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:DTrinket,

Thanks so much! I have sent you 2 pics of the new tank with the new and improved Moby and Florence. When you look at Moby, the fantail, remember that 2 weeks ago when I came to this forum, he was almost solid black from ammonia burn, and that included his tail. Every time I looked in the tank I cried. Thanks to the information and help that I have gotten from people on this forum...look at him now!

I don't know if you can see the fungus bump on his back with the picture. I would like you all to take a look at that, as that is what started the whole nightmare. But I already have seen it become smaller since he's gone into a 3x bigger tank. If you can't see it, I'll get a better pic and send it to you. He still has a tiny bit of black on his nose, and thats it.

Debbie, how is Smokey today? I'm going to have to go look at your video!

Vickie

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Vickie- I got your 2 pics just fine and I have posted them in your thread on Moby and Florence here:

Vickie's tank and fish -2 pics

I thought it better to put them in your thread so people reading here don't get confused.

Those 2 fishies are looking great btw !! And very happy in their beautiful new home :)

Hopefully its just time before Smokey will be all better too. Did you add the epsom salt Debbie?

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Debbie, Dot and Smokey are such pretty fish! Imagine a video of them on YouTube, lol, that was so cool!

If Smokey was the fish toward the bottom part of the tank, he seemed like he was swimming pretty well...not knowing your fish, I never would have noticed his belly if you hadn't mentioned it. Maybe someone else on here can help you with that.

Nice video, though, and what a great way to get across to people whats going on with them!

Good luck, and I hope that Smokey improves very soon, but if he's swimming around, it seems he's doing better already!

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Hopefully its just time before Smokey will be all better too. Did you add the epsom salt Debbie?

Hi Trinket,

I added the Epsom salt about an hour ago. I put some aquarium water in a jar and dissolved the salt in that before adding it to the tank. I'm in Orlando, Fl - US. I was reading/posting late last night, and figured it would be better to do tank things with a rested head instead of a sleepy one. :rolleyes:

Should I add more after doing water changes? I'll be doing a 50% change (5 gallon) later, so would I add another 1/8 tsp?

I'll keep you posted on his progress. :)

Debbie

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Debbie, Dot and Smokey are such pretty fish! Imagine a video of them on YouTube, lol, that was so cool!

If Smokey was the fish toward the bottom part of the tank, he seemed like he was swimming pretty well...not knowing your fish, I never would have noticed his belly if you hadn't mentioned it. Maybe someone else on here can help you with that.

Nice video, though, and what a great way to get across to people whats going on with them!

Good luck, and I hope that Smokey improves very soon, but if he's swimming around, it seems he's doing better already!

Hi Vickie!

You have beautiful fish, yourself! Your new tank looks great! :D

I have to give all the credit to my daughter for the photography, and getting images up on imageshack, and Youtube. I take terrible pictures, and she's better with computer knowledge than I am. These young whipper-snappers. ;)

Trinket is pretty sure that the white in Smokey's mouth and the swelling are caused by an internal bacteria, so I've got them on some anti-bacterial food. I have also put some Epsom salt in the tank, and that is supposed to help the swelling.

Yes, Smokey was the fish at the bottom. He's swimming a little better than he was there. I think the bloating gives him turning issues. But it's so wonderful to see him swimming again. :D

Congratulations on the new tank! I hope the spot on Moby goes away soon! :hug

Debbie

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Orlando, huh? Darn, a year ago we would have been living in the same city! :thumbs:

Since nobody is here at the moment, yes, add 1/8 teaspoon back into the tank when you take out 5 gl of water.

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Orlando, huh? Darn, a year ago we would have been living in the same city! :thumbs:

Since nobody is here at the moment, yes, add 1/8 teaspoon back into the tank when you take out 5 gl of water.

Hi Andrea,

Thank you for the information. I added the 1/8th teaspoon to the tank. :) Any idea how long it takes for it to start working on the swelling? Poor Smokey has been floating near the top a lot today. He fights to stay down to eat and pick at the gravel, but after a while he seems tired, and just rests up on top.

I noticed that you were an Ex-Floridian, and I wondered what part of Florida you were from! I'm originally from CT, but we moved here 19 years ago. None of my kids want to move back to CT, but I miss my family sometimes. I'll be heading up there in a few weeks for a wedding, so it'll be nice seeing them again. :)

Debbie

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I'm glad to see that Smokey is doing better. You are doing a great job Fishy fish. :)

Thank you, JoH! Once I get them a bigger tank, I'll know that I've done everything possible. I'm still working on that one. :rolleyes:

Now that he's swimming around again, the tank seems smaller than it did before. Or maybe I'm realizing just how small it is - but they sure are getting big. Smokey looked a lot smaller when he was on the gravel with his fins call clamped and his tail limp.

They were so little when I first got them. I should post their "baby pictures". :D I would never have imagined that they grew so fast!

Thank you for keeping track of Smokey's progress. You saved Smokey more than once, JoH, and I can't possibly thank you enough. :thanks

Debbie

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Yes that was smart and very fast of Jof H. to notice and bring that main symptom to attention.

Jack- Thanks for the kind comment. I guess I have projected personalities on all my fish to an extent where they really are like little people to me. I don't honestly know if thats projecting or if thats a fact but they do seem to me to have individual personalities and so of course I really care when seeing them sick. I think you know what I mean because you have cared so attentively for your Jack and Sash and I think most people here regularly, feel the same-ish on a scale-and thats one reason why we stay around here. I know that to non-fish people talking like this would probably have me in a white coat in a padded cell which is why I try not to talk about my fish to non-fish people :)

Debbie, that is cool that you and Andrea (Ranchu-gal) live/d in the same city! Wow. I wonder if its ever happened at kokos that 2 members live really close, almost neighbours. That would be funny to find out and nice to have a kokos friend locally :D

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Yes that was smart and very fast of Jof H. to notice and bring that main symptom to attention.

Jack- Thanks for the kind comment. I guess I have projected personalities on all my fish to an extent where they really are like little people to me. I don't honestly know if thats projecting or if thats a fact but they do seem to me to have individual personalities and so of course I really care when seeing them sick. I think you know what I mean because you have cared so attentively for your Jack and Sash and I think most people here regularly, feel the same-ish on a scale-and thats one reason why we stay around here. I know that to non-fish people talking like this would probably have me in a white coat in a padded cell which is why I try not to talk about my fish to non-fish people :)

Debbie, that is cool that you and Andrea (Ranchu-gal) live/d in the same city! Wow. I wonder if its ever happened at kokos that 2 members live really close, almost neighbours. That would be funny to find out and nice to have a kokos friend locally :D

Goldyfan and I are neighbors. She lives in Madison, Indiana, which is about 20 miles down the road from Scottsburg, where I live.

And yeah, when I talk about my fish my family and friends look at me like I've lost my mind. :Dont-Believe:

My mother did seem to be impressed that Moby got better. When she stopped over last week, I was very upset and she looked at him. Funny. She said "Oh, he's not SUPPOSED to be black?" :glare:

Other than that, I also, try not to talk about my fish except on here. No one understands. :no:

Edited by vickielm
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Thank you, JoH! Once I get them a bigger tank, I'll know that I've done everything possible. I'm still working on that one. :rolleyes:

Now that he's swimming around again, the tank seems smaller than it did before. Or maybe I'm realizing just how small it is - but they sure are getting big. Smokey looked a lot smaller when he was on the gravel with his fins call clamped and his tail limp.

They were so little when I first got them. I should post their "baby pictures". :D I would never have imagined that they grew so fast!

Thank you for keeping track of Smokey's progress. You saved Smokey more than once, JoH, and I can't possibly thank you enough. :thanks

Debbie

Yes they grow real fast. I'm thinking about getting a bigger tank as my two goldies have outgrown the 20 gallon that they live in right now. When I first got the tank, it looked huge and they were so small, they almost looked lost in it.

We are all happy that Smokey is doing well. Please keep us posted. :)

Edited by Jack of Hearts
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Hi Everyone,

Thank you so much for your concern for Smokey. I haven't had internet access since yesterday afternoon, so I haven't been able to post anything about him. They said that something outside was messing up our modem.

Smokey isn't doing very well today. A step forward, then another one back, it seems. I had mentioned how bloated he was getting, and how he kept floating. Well, I thought he was better yesterday. He finally managed to go to the bathroom, after looking so packed I thought he might burst. It's not like he's filled with fluid, it looks solid. But anyway, the waste was very odd looking. Some looked like it had things growing out of it, and others were very fibrous looking.

It was also all over the plastic plants, so I wondered if is may have shot out of him or something to make such a mess. I did a 50% pwc after I had my daughter take some pictures of it. (And I thought that I took crappy pictures! Sorry - couldn't resist :rolleyes: ) Can anyone tell by the pictures why it looks this way?

eww - yucky #1, eww - yucky #2 and fertilizing the plastic plants #3

Afterwards, he was swimming fine - and practically looked like the "Old Smokey" again. He was playing with Dot, and all seemed great. But later last night he started bloating up again. This morning :thud my heart nearly stopped when he was belly up - but he just couldn't straighten himself. He'd force himself to swim around a bit, sometimes looking like he was practicing for a synchronized swim team - only managing to spin in one place - but when he'd stop, he was belly up again.

This afternoon, he was floating on his side, and again, looked ready to burst. Oh - I should mention that it's in the anal area that he looks like he could burst. It seems like there's something there that wants to get out - but he can't go.

Tonight he's at the bottom, but still upside down, in sort of a backward arch. He still looks bloated, but not quite as much, and it's very bumpy. He actually swims fine once he gets going, but when he gets near the bottom, he flips over onto his back. He's still eating - the best he can. I haven't gotten that other gel food yet, that Trinket mentioned earlier. The directions on this Jungle brand food said to feed it for 5 - 10 days, so I thought I should go through with at least 5 before switching. I don't know if it was a good idea or not. Today was the 5th day, so should I get the other food now or stick with what I have?

Other news - I got an e-mail from the gentleman at TetraCare, and he saw the growth in Smokey's mouth, but he said along with that, he still feels that Smokey has an internal parasite. He recommended that I feed both anti-bacterial AND anti-parasite food. Is it okay to do that?

GOOD news - We got another tank!! 55 gallons! My husband didn't want to get used, so we bought new. (Well, charged it.) He's working on the stand right now. We didn't get a filter yet. They didn't have the one recommended by two clerks at the store, but they said it was in the delivery that came in today, and would be on the shelf tomorrow. It's a Penguin 350 by Marineland. I hope it's a good one. Any opinions?

Now I'll need tips on getting the new tank ready for the fish. Would taking the gravel out of the old one help the cycle in the new one? Should I let the new one run a few days before putting Smokey in a totally new environment - or would it be more beneficial for him to go in sooner? Is it a good idea to move him when he's not well?

I don't understand what's wrong with him, unless it's all part of the recuperation process. I felt so lost when I couldn't get to all of you for help. It's hard to trust people at the pet stores. On three separate occasions, we had three different sales people show us three different filters saying that they were the best, and their personal favorite. First an Aqua Clear, then a Rena, then the Marineland brands (Penguin and Emperor). We decided to find one more employee and go with his opinion. He seemed very knowledgeable, but - who knows what they really know from experience, instead of what they've been told/taught.

Well, thank you all for bearing with me and Smokey through all of this. You are all so wonderful! :exactly

It's so hard looking at him upside down like that. But if he's the same old Smokey, he's probably saying "Hey - this is cool!" and he probably loves the spinning. He was always doing the strangest things anyway!

I look forward to you ideas, opinions, help, or just hello's. Anything and everything is truly appreciated.

:hug

Debbie

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Goodmorning Smokey's Mom :hi . Good to see Smokey is hanging in there..no pun intended :blink:

It's very difficult to know exactly what is going on inside of Smokey. That's the trouble with these internal issues :( As well as the columnaris there could be constipation problems or it could just be gas building up inside from the bacteria in there. Are there any scales sticking out on Smokey anywhere at all? Any new symptoms on the body? How are your water params today?

The 'yucky' gallery pics show quite a lot of poop so hopefully if he was constipated this is now on the mend. I suppose it could also be

the kind of intestinal reaction when ones diet changes radically and antibiotics are on the menu. Is the orangey yellow color the same color as the Jungle Lab food?

You said the Tetracare man said you could combine the 2 meds for antiparasite and anti bacteria. I would rather try them back to back. Finish one short course and then try a short course of the other. It may be worth a shot.

There is one other thing you could do. Soak the bacterial food in garlic. Garlic is the big buzz word in the goldfish food industry recently and is claimed to kill intestinal parasites :rockon !! Many tests have verified this and it is a cheap home solution if you thought you'd like to try that. This way you could continue with the anti columnaris bacteria food and also know you were doing something toward helping if there should be intestinal parasites.

Anyway, please keep adding the correct low dose of epsom salt after the water changes as a tonic for the bloating right now. There are no side effects from that and it does seem to be helping a little. Make sure too that all your water params are in order as I think I remember you are not cycled yet.?

Congratulations on the new tank. That is fabulous news :D . 55 gallons is a perfect size- I have one that size. Your fish will just love it. It will need setting up and running before you put the fish in and you will need to transfer everything from the tank you have now- gravel AND filter you are using.

The 350 filter is not really enough power on its own you see (they never are the filters sold with the tanks) but if you add the one you have now you should be fine. Most people run 2 or 3 filters on their tanks.

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