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Help Save Smokey, My Shubunkin Goldfish!


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Hello,

I'm hoping that someone can offer me help with my Shubunkin Goldfish, Smokey. First I will answer your questions:

? Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 0

pH - 7.8,

pH from tap 8.0

? Tank Size and How long has it been running?

The tank is 10 gallons, running since January 1st of this year - so 8 months.

? What is the name and size of the filter?

The filter is Top Fin, Model 10

? How often do you change the water and how much?

I have been doing a 50% water change every day for the past 2 weeks.

? How many fish in the tank and their size?

There are 2 Shubunkin Goldfish in there. One is just over 4 inches head to tail, the other fish I can't really measure - but he was almost the same size as the other one before he got sick a month ago.

? What kind of water additives or conditioners?

I use API Stress Coat, and Top Fin Conditioning Salt - but I add salt about every other, or every 3rd water change, since it's been every day.

? Any medications added to the tank?

I don't believe there are any current medications in the tank. Three weeks ago I used Erythromycin, and 2 weeks ago I used Parasite Clear.

? Add any new fish to the tank?

No new fish have been added They have been the only fish in the tank.

? What do you feed your fish?

I feed them TetraFin Goldfish Flakes, and once a week they get shelled cooked peas.

? Any unusual finding on the fish such as "grains of salt", bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

A few nights ago, I noticed something on his right side - almost like something small was poking through from the inside, and his face looks darker than it has, but no "salt", streaks, frayed fins or fungus.

? Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc..?

He has been staying at the bottom for just over 4 weeks. He stopped eating 2 weeks ago after I tried feeding anti-parasite food, but then would eat from my hands for a few days. He stopped doing that last Wednesday.

I am totally at a loss for what else to do for my fish.

Four weeks ago, when he first started bottom sitting with his fins clamped, I tried adding some salt to the tank. I thought it helped, because he seemed better later that day, but it didn't last the rest of the day. A few days later, I wrote to the company that my aquarium kit came from, Tetra Care, because I had joined their support program. He asked for the water levels, but at the time, I didn't have a test kit. I went to vvvv, and the levels were Ammonia .5, Nitite .5, nitrate 40, and pH 8.4. They didn't seem to think there was a problem with the water, considering the size tank and number of fish. (I know - the tank is too small and I need a bigger one.) The gentleman from the support program had suggested anti-bacterial food, but the clerk at vvvv suggested the anti-bacterial treatment. I opted for that over the food. After the four treatments, my sick fish (Smokey) seemed worse. I wrote back to the support program, but the person I was corresponding with had an automated "out of office" reply. I decided to write on the forum of the same company.

They told me the problem with my fish was that my tank was too small and I needed to be doing more frequent water changes. I did, and all the levels came down (pH stayed the same), but Smokey was still no better. I then noticed a three inch long white stringy trail behind Smokey. I told the forum, and they said it was an internal parasite. I tried the anti-parasite food, but Smokey didn't eat it. The other fish did though. The next day, neither of them ate it, and I had to remove it from the tank. Someone on the forum then said that the white stringy trail was probably from gulped air, and not a parasite at all, and that I had too much going on in the tank - so I stopped doing anything but water changes for a few days. I noticed that his belly seemed bloated. I mentioned this, and posted this picture on the forum, but no one commented on it. His belly wasn't round, like dropsy is, it was just enlongated. I tried giving him peas again. Back before I started giving them peas - and he would have trouble with floating up to the top. Like his tail was on an elastic, and he'd pull himself down but be pulled back up. After I started giving peas once a week, this never happened again. But he had stopped eating after the parasite food, so he didn't eat any of the peas when I offered that day. Once again, I had to remove them.

I asked again on the forum if anyone could tell what was wrong with his belly, and I was told that it was Swim Bladder Disorder, and I should give him an Epsom salt bath. Smokey already seemed very weak from not eating, and was spending more and more time on the bottom. With the directions for the bath saying "If he looks like he's getting worse, remove him right away", I couldn't bring myself to put him through the stress of it. And if he got any worse - I mean.. how much worse is there than where he's been, other than passed on?

So I couldn't do it, and I wrote to the gentleman in the support program again. He disagreed with the Swim Bladder Disorder, and felt it was a parasite. I treated the tank with the Parasite Clear. I used 2 tablets over 4 days, like the directions said. After finishing the treatment, his breathing wasn't as rapid as it had been, and he seemed to be holding himself up a little more. Not totally lying on the gravel. It was around then that I read a post on this forum that someone was hand feeding their goldfish that wasn't eating. I tried it, and he would take the food from my fingers.

Last Wednesday was the last day that he would take food from my fingers. I try everyday, a few times a day, to see if he'll eat, but he scurries to the glass or a corner so I can't get to his mouth. He now can barely hold himself upright, and spends a lot of time on his side. Up until today, he would still move around the tank frequently. He could only scurry along the gravel, but we rarely saw him in the same place twice. Today, he isn't moving much at all. Mostly when his "buddy" comes along and bumps him.

A few weeks back, he seemed to have trouble closing his mouth. It looked stuck open. I was reading online about different things it could be, but after a few hours, he was fine. I'm wondering if perhaps it was a rock - and he swallowed it - and that's the "poke" on his side? His eyes look bulgy, too. At first they just looked like he was getting eyelids or something - around his eyes, but when I looked last night, they were a bit bulgy, too. This morning, his face - or the front of his head - seemed to have a light covering of a black peach fuzz. Very light, but I noticed it was different.

Let me add here that the other fish is perfectly healthy. Her appetite is fine, and she is very active. She is very good to the sick fish, often going and lying next to her "buddy". It seems like she gets frustrated sometimes and bumps him, like she's trying to get him to get up and play like they used to. He was such a lively fish. If it wasn't for him, I'd never had known that fish had personalities. He was always so funny - doing the strangest things. Then - he'd swim over to Dot, and they'd both start doing whatever he had just done. Almost like he went and told her "Hey - you have to try this!".

I'm hoping that maybe something can still be done for him. I didn't go back to the other forum because I didn't do the Epsom salt bath that they requested, for fear of over stressing my fish - so I felt it was wrong to go back to ask for help. Also, I found this forum, and everyone here is so nice. Here, it seems that there is no such thing as a stupid question. I can't say that about other forums I've read.

I don't know if there is anything else to add about his condition. I know this is long, and I apologize - but it has been a month's worth of information to try and recall. I'm not sure if I've remembered everything here.

Here are a few recent pictures of Smokey: o1. o2. o3.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this long post, and thank you for any advice you can give me. If you have any questions - or if I have left anything out, please feel free to ask!

Debbie

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Hi Debbie,

I am sorry that your fish is sick! He is beautiful! I am not sure if your fish has Swim Bladder. My goldie has it right now. He just got over it a week ago and now we are going thru it again. Believe me, if there is any forum that can help your fish, this one can! While you are waiting on a Mod to help you, you may want to read over some of the posts on this board as they are very informative and may be of some help to you. Hang in there and I hope your fish gets better soon!

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Hi Debbie,

So sorry to hear your fish is sick. But, like Nickie said, you've come to the right place for help. If I hadn't come here last week, my fish would've been gone, but thanks to the advice I got here, he is once again a happy little guy, well on his way to recovery. Hopefully they will be able to help you the same way as soon as a mod or some of these people who really know their stuff see your post.

Your fish is beautiful, and good luck!

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Hi Debbie. I'm sorry about Smokey. He has not eaten anything since last Wednesday?

Hello. No, Smokey hasn't eaten anything since last Wednesday. :( I don't know if he can't suck in anymore or if he just has no appetite, but he just tries to get away from me when I try to feed him now.

I forgot to mention in my monster sized post that I soak the flakes in some aquarium water before feeding them, so they'll sink. They would both swim like crazy to try and get more than the other. Dot still does, even though she gets it all anyway. Nature of the fish, maybe?

How is Jack doing? Everyone, it was Jack of Hearts' thread that gave me the idea to try hand feeding! It did work for a few days.

Thank you so much for your concern. This forum truly is support, in more ways than one. :)

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Hi Debbie,

I am sorry that your fish is sick! He is beautiful! I am not sure if your fish has Swim Bladder. My goldie has it right now. He just got over it a week ago and now we are going thru it again. Believe me, if there is any forum that can help your fish, this one can! While you are waiting on a Mod to help you, you may want to read over some of the posts on this board as they are very informative and may be of some help to you. Hang in there and I hope your fish gets better soon!

Hi Nickie,

Thank you so much. I have been reading through the posts, and they are very informative. :) I was surprised at how many people have written saying the same thing that happened with Smokey, where he was fine one day, and sick the next. Maybe if we were fish experts, we'd notice something wasn't right sooner, but he was swimming around like usual the night before he was sick. He was his playful self, shimmying agains the glass when I went over to say "Goodnight" to them and shut off their light, which I like to think that it's the fish's way of saying "Goodnight" back.

I'm sorry that your fish is going through Swimm Bladder problems again. I hope he recovers again, soon!

Debbie

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Hello. No, Smokey hasn't eaten anything since last Wednesday. :( I don't know if he can't suck in anymore or if he just has no appetite, but he just tries to get away from me when I try to feed him now.

Before anything, if he is truly not eating anything(any poops at all?), and have not eaten in a week, you need to get some food into him as he will die from malnutrition. Have you tried taking him out and putting him in a small container just for feeding time?

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Hi Debbie,

So sorry to hear your fish is sick. But, like Nickie said, you've come to the right place for help. If I hadn't come here last week, my fish would've been gone, but thanks to the advice I got here, he is once again a happy little guy, well on his way to recovery. Hopefully they will be able to help you the same way as soon as a mod or some of these people who really know their stuff see your post.

Your fish is beautiful, and good luck!

Hi Vickie,

I had read your thread about your fish! I'm so glad that your fish are doing so well now! :D This truly is the best forum I have seen. And with Smokey being sick, and "Googling" his symptoms, I have seen many! It's sad to see people writing for help, and no one replied. I'm so grateful for finding Koko's!

I hope someone can help me save my Smokey. I sure miss his antics.

Thank you, and everyone for your well wishes!

Debbie

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Hi debbie I was just wondering how long you've had this lil guy and if you could give me some background info on him. Where did you get him from and what kind of conditions his tank was in when you got him?

Hi Olivia,

I got the fish as a gift for Christmas of last year. They were purchased from nnnnnn. There was actually three, but one didn't make it overnight, and I only saw it in pictures that my daughter had taken.

I don't know the condition of the tank when they purchased them. (My husband and daughter went and bought them on Christmas Eve) I used to go look at the tanks there, just to see how small the fish are when you first get them, but we had another nnnnnn built closer to home, and I haven't been back to that one. On the occasions that I DID go, the conditions seemed okay. Once in a great while there was a fish that "swam to other shores", so to speak. The new store is horrendous, as far as tank conditions. Fish stuck on intake tubes, half eaten fish on the bottom, three or more fish obviously gone... It was too heart breaking to go back to look at them, so I don't anymore.

The fish were in a fishbowl when I first got them. I knew absolutely nothing about goldfish or goldfish care. My daughter started looking up things on the internet and told me that the water needed changing and they were cramped in there, so I started doing water changes. I used water that sat out overnight, because I didn't have anything to dechlorinate with at the time. The first week I had them, the poor fish spent all their time getting oxygen from the air, as I'm sure there was none in the bowl. The next week we bought the 10 gallon aquarium, and and they were both doing fine up until a month ago.

I hope I answered your questions. I'm sorry that I tend to rambling off the subject. :rolleyes:

Debbie

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Before anything, if he is truly not eating anything(any poops at all?), and have not eaten in a week, you need to get some food into him as he will die from malnutrition. Have you tried taking him out and putting him in a small container just for feeding time?

Not as much as before, but I use the gravel vacuum in places that he would sit a lot, and black pieces come up. I wondered if it was from food in him when he was bloated or something.

I haven't tried moving him to a smaller container. I thought moving fish was stressful, so I didn't want to add to it. I still have the fishbowl, if it would be better for him in there to try feeding him, I could give it a try.

Thank you so much for your concern.

Debbie

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Hows he doing?

I noticed from your parameters

Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Nitrate - 0

pH - 7.8,

pH from tap 8.0

that your tank is not cycled which puts fish under stress. It is highly important that you monitor your parameters very closely. I suggest doing partial water changes each day as fish give off ammonia and toxins will rapidly build up in an uncycled tank. I suggest you read this link. :)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/cycle.html

Another problem you have is your tank is way too small for the fish you have. Two shubunkins needs at least 20gallons of water each minimum so they really need to be in a 40 gallon tank. So at first chance you are able to I would get a bigger tank as you will need one. Check out classified here you may find one if your lucky :)

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I'm sorry that I tend to rambling off the subject. rolleyes.gif

No worries. I'm used to it; my mom could talk the ears off a jack rabbit. She once talked to a wrong number for 45min.

I think Blue is on to something but since the tank has been running for eight months its possible with all the large water changes so frequently the cycle may have crashed. What are you using to test your water? You should never have 0 as a nitrate reading. It's achievable but extremely highly unlikely. Healthy nitrate ranges between 5 and 10ppm. Getting upwards to 20 is a caution area. You don't ever want the nitrates to get higher than 20. It's very hard to maintain good water quality when your fish are housed in a tank that's too small. The basic rule of thumb that most of us stick to is 10gs per fancy goldfish (ie. fantail, oranda, moors, ect.) and 20gs per common type goldfish (ie. common, comet, shubukin,...single tailed fish.) Then once the fish are housed in the right sized aquarium we have another rule of thumb for the filtration. For every one gallon of water you need 10gph (gallons per hour) of filtration for goldfish.

So what does all this mean for you? You have two shubies so that means you need at minimum a 40g tank with a filter(s) that turns over 400gph. Goldfish are wonderful, relaxing, and educational pets. But for all the things they are they aren't cheap or simple to care for. Think of them as aquatic pigs. I have a horse and he's cheaper and easier to keep than all the fish I have. lol Most likely your fish's health is failing from chronic stresses. These stresses leave the fish open to attack by parasites and bacteria. I know you are trying to keep the water quality good but with the lack of space and not enough filtration its darn near impossible even with daily water changes. Fish pollute their water every second of every day. The combination of decomposing waste food, poo, and (believe it or not) the release of ammonia as they breathe can skunk the water REALLY fast. I know you're doing your very best to make him better and that you care a lot about him but if the base problems aren't solved you can't fix these resulting issues.

The foundation of your fish's health is based on three key factors. Adequate space, stable good quality water, and proper nutrition. When you obtain those you greatly lessen the number of health problems your fish are susceptible to.

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Hello,

Thank you for the information on the tank. I know I need a bigger one. I never thought of getting a used one, but I will look into it - although I really don't think I have the room for a tank that large. I'll see what I can do, though.

I got Smokey to eat today!! I kept chasing him around the tank with the food, and I guess he finally tired himself out, because stopped scurrying away, and ate. I only gave him a few pieces, since he hadn't eaten in almost a week. I was afraid he might purge all that he took in if I gave him too much. Afterwards, it reminded me of a Mom trying to get her toddler to take medicine. I guess it is a bit like that, isn't it? :)

I use the API Master test kit to test my water. I have only been doing the 50% water changes for the last two weeks. Before Smokey became ill, I did 25% every other week. With the anti-bacterial and anti-parasite treatments, I was doing them every other day. I was actually afraid that the large water changes would harm the cycle, but I didn't know what else to do, outside of getting a larger tank. I was afraid that a change to another tank might cause him more stress - but apparently, it would be the best thing I could do at this point.

How long would I have to let it cycle before adding the fish to a new tank? With the kit that they're using now, it said to add the water treatments that came with the kit, then wait 24 - 48 hours before adding the fish. I only waited 24 hours, because I couldn't bear to watch them struggle in the fishbowl anymore.

I'm hoping that the food he ate will give him a bit of strength back, so he'll stop lying on his side. It breaks my heart to see him that way.

I have a few questions to ask, about things I was told on the other forum.

You mentioned that the cycle may have crashed. I used to add API's Stress Zyme when I did water changes, because the bottle said to add it to the tank each week to maintain it. The other forum told me to stop adding it, because it was already cycled. Should I add it again, if the cycle is crashed?

My other question is salt. When I had the water tested at vvvv one time, the girl told me that my salt was a little low, and I might want to add a little more. When I mentioned this on the other forum, I was told that there was "no way to test for salt", that it sounded like "a straight up BS response from someone trying to sell you more things you don't need.", and "That is bunk, I hope she didn't sell you any aquarium salt.". They then went into why there was no way to test for salt. I have read many posts about using the salt for goldfish, and most have been in favor of it. Even the gentleman from the TetraCare support group told me to use the salt, so long as I only add what I am removing. What do you use to test the salt in an aquarium?

I think that's all the question I had. (for now!) Thank you all so much for caring about my Smokey! :)

Debbie

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Hi Debbie pleased hes a bit better today :)

Regards using aquarium salt I tend to just salt my tank to 1% that helps relieve stress. Others dont salt unless their fish are sick so really its up to you if you use aquarium salt or not. Only salt to 2% or 3% if you are treating illness if you decide to keep your tank salted.

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I got Smokey to eat today!! I kept chasing him around the tank with the food, and I guess he finally tired himself out, because stopped scurrying away, and ate. I only gave him a few pieces, since he hadn't eaten in almost a week. I was afraid he might purge all that he took in if I gave him too much. Afterwards, it reminded me of a Mom trying to get her toddler to take medicine. I guess it is a bit like that, isn't it? :)

That's great. That was concern #1. If he doesn't eat, he will die. The fact that he got his appetite back is a very good sign. :)

What do you use to test the salt in an aquarium?

There is two ways to do it. With a salinity meter or with chemicals.

I use chemicals. It's no different from testing for pH or Nitrates.

This is the kit that I use.

3f2c5ab315492f7e4a3780de0e206cbc.jpg

Or if you like, you can get a salinity meter...

koi-medic.jpg

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I got Smokey to eat today!! I kept chasing him around the tank with the food, and I guess he finally tired himself out, because stopped scurrying away, and ate. I only gave him a few pieces, since he hadn't eaten in almost a week. I was afraid he might purge all that he took in if I gave him too much. Afterwards, it reminded me of a Mom trying to get her toddler to take medicine. I guess it is a bit like that, isn't it? :)

Debbie, that is great that you got him to eat! I have read here that goldies shouldn't go more than 5 days without eating, I believe.

If he kept it down that is a good thing.

Good luck with Smokey, I hope he comes around soon. Like you, I also need a bigger tank. I have been looking in the classifieds, scouring yard sales, and looking in and calling thrift stores. The lady that owns the pet store here in town had a BEAUTIFUL one, 55 gallon, complete with oak stand with cabinets on the bottom, but it was $399. Great price, but out of my range right now. So I will keep looking.

The 55 gallon looks like a job for Santa Claus to me, lol! :yeah:

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There is two ways to do it. With a salinity meter or with chemicals.

I use chemicals. It's no different from testing for pH or Nitrates.

Hi Jack,

Thank you for the salt test information! I think the one you use is one that I had seen previously on the internet. When I mentioned it on the other forum, they told me that it must have been to test the water in a saltwater tank, and I believed them. (I couldn't find it again after mentioning it to them)

Different people at vvvv have told me that they keep their tanks at 2%. I couldn't figure out how they knew that if there was really no way to test! :wacko:

Now I know better! Thank you!

Debbie

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Like you, I also need a bigger tank. I have been looking in the classifieds, scouring yard sales, and looking in and calling thrift stores. The lady that owns the pet store here in town had a BEAUTIFUL one, 55 gallon, complete with oak stand with cabinets on the bottom, but it was $399. Great price, but out of my range right now. So I will keep looking.

The 55 gallon looks like a job for Santa Claus to me, lol! :yeah:

Hi Vickie,

Ho Ho Ho! Good luck finding a tank! I found one on Craig's List that they say is 30 or more gallons. (they weren't sure) It comes with the lid and even a wood stand for only $80. I just need to convince hubby that the poor fish really do need a bigger tank. I'm not certain that it's even still available. I don't want to get my hopes up, in case hubby says no. :( It's a great bargain though.

How would you clean a used tank? Would I use just plain water? My little 10 gallon was easy enough to rinse in the tub, but a bigger one.. I wouldn't be able to lift it when it was empty, let alone have to rinse it out!

Is it true that white vinegar can be used to get rid of the white deposits - yet is safe for the fish? I'm not sure where I heard that, but I've never tried it just in case it wasn't.

Of course, finding a tank is one problem. Finding ROOM for it is another! :D

Happy tank hunting!

Debbie

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As for a Smokey update, he has been moving around again. The other day he only moved about 5 times. He's still not "swimming", but he has shot himself up to the top and swam/fell back down a couple of times. I guess the food gave him some energy! :D

I got an e-mail response from someone else at the TetraCare support group. While she said that she honestly doesn't know what is wrong with Smokey, she wonders if the thing that seems to be poking from Smokey's side could be either a tumor inside, or the start of an anchor worm? (One of the pictures in my original post shows it. It's his right side, halfway down below his dorsal fin) She said his bulging eyes was probably pop eye, and suggested that I use Clout, Maracyn 2, or Maracyn Plus. I've read that Clout is very powerful, and can be bad for a fish that's already sick. (why else would you use it?) I haven't really seen much about the other two, just that one is a powder, and one is a liquid.

Is this something I should try - or would it be best to work on getting a larger tank first?

Also - in the mean time - should I add API's Stress Zyme to the tank when I do the water changes? If so, how often - since I'm doing 50% daily water changes? Is that too much or should I do 25%?

Sorry for all of the questions.. but when in doubt - ask, right? :hummm

Debbie

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Personally I would add it at every water change if you are water via a bucket add the stress zyme to that by ammount of gallons your changing if water straight into tank add enough for whole tank. Regards water changes check your parameters then do a water change that will give you an idea of how much to change :)

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Personally I would add it at every water change if you are water via a bucket add the stress zyme to that by ammount of gallons your changing if water straight into tank add enough for whole tank. Regards water changes check your parameters then do a water change that will give you an idea of how much to change :)

Hi Blue,

I tested the water. (API Master Kit) Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates are all 0, and pH is 8. Should I skip a water change today - or do 25%?

Thank you for your help!

Debbie

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Like you, I also need a bigger tank. I have been looking in the classifieds, scouring yard sales, and looking in and calling thrift stores. The lady that owns the pet store here in town had a BEAUTIFUL one, 55 gallon, complete with oak stand with cabinets on the bottom, but it was $399. Great price, but out of my range right now. So I will keep looking.

The 55 gallon looks like a job for Santa Claus to me, lol! :yeah:

Hi Vickie,

Ho Ho Ho! Good luck finding a tank! I found one on Craig's List that they say is 30 or more gallons. (they weren't sure) It comes with the lid and even a wood stand for only $80. I just need to convince hubby that the poor fish really do need a bigger tank. I'm not certain that it's even still available. I don't want to get my hopes up, in case hubby says no. :( It's a great bargain though.

How would you clean a used tank? Would I use just plain water? My little 10 gallon was easy enough to rinse in the tub, but a bigger one.. I wouldn't be able to lift it when it was empty, let alone have to rinse it out!

Is it true that white vinegar can be used to get rid of the white deposits - yet is safe for the fish? I'm not sure where I heard that, but I've never tried it just in case it wasn't.

Of course, finding a tank is one problem. Finding ROOM for it is another! :D

Happy tank hunting!

Debbie

Well, there's a garage sale advertised in the local paper here that has aquariums listed in the stuff it will have for sale tomorrow. I'm trying to get a hold of the people now and see if they will let me look at the tanks tonight. If not, I will be there bright and early tomorrow morning!!!

And $80 is a steal for the tank and stand you described. Also, I have cleaned tanks before in the shower with bleach and hot water, and rinsed with hot water and vinegar. I've also cleaned them outside and rinsed with the water hose. You're not going to put the fish in them immediately anyway, so any traces of vinegar should be taken out by the filters and naturally diminished before you add your fishies anyway, right?

Oh, and I don't know about fish having cat allergies, lol.

I have a 20 pound cat (see in my sig), and they don't seem to mind him, and he ignores them! :)

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She said his bulging eyes was probably pop eye, and suggested that I use Clout, Maracyn 2, or Maracyn Plus.

A fish with pop eye has a distinct white donut around his eyes. My Oranda Sash got it and it went away with Maracyn & Maracyn 2. However, as Koko warned me about the possibility, it did turn into dropsy. I was able to cure him with Metro-med. Anyway here is a photo of a fish with pop eye. Is this what it looks like?

popeye.jpeg

I've read that Clout is very powerful, and can be bad for a fish that's already sick. (why else would you use it?) I haven't really seen much about the other two, just that one is a powder, and one is a liquid.

Yes Clout is very powerful and as a LFS owner said "very nasty stuff". It contains actual carcinogens(assuming long term exposure). I would not use it on my fishes. :no:

There are much safer medications available if he indeed has parasites.

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