Bottom Sitting And Sudden Ripped/torn Fins

[Guest Steri]

I hope this belongs in 911, it feels like an emergency to me. If a mod deems it to not be an emergency then please feel free to move it. Now down to business!

* Test Results for the Following:

Ammonia Level?0

Nitrite Level?0

Nitrate level?20ish, I hate how hard it is to read the api test.

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)?ph 7.6, kh and gh 86ppm

Ph Level out of the Tap?7.6

* Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running?55 gal running for around 3 years

* What is the name and size of the filter/s? Penguin bio-wheel 350 350 U.S. gph and Fluval 404 340 U.S. gph total approx 690 U.S. gph

* How often do you change the water and how much?50% once to twice a week or more if needed

# How many fish in the tank and their size?2 fish 1 Black moore 6.5 inch without tail 1 lionhead 3 inch without tail

# What kind of water additives or conditioners? just Prime to treat tap water

# Any medications added to the tank?No

# Add any new fish to the tank?No

# What do you feed your fish?Currently using mostly Pro-Gold and Some Hikari Oranda Gold and occasional peas

# Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?Frayed fins

# Any unusual behavior like staying

at the bottom, not eating, ect..? Bottom Sitting currently

Hi all,

I've been a Koko's lurker for a couple years now as I've slowly learned the intricacies of taking care of gold fish. I've been trying to use the search feature to treat any problems I've had with my fish and I have been fairly successful up until now.

Some history: One Armed Jack(who turned out to be a female) my large black moore has had some on going problems. In late April early May she started bottom sitting. Judging by her poop, usually long and clear with zig zags and air bubbles, I assumed she was reabsorbing eggs. So I kept the water as good as I could but she didn't seem to get better. She ate fine the whole time, she just couldn't get off the ground. Then her poop turned thin and white. So I fed her medi gold for about a month maybe a little more. During this time she developed some small pin point holes on one of her caudal fins. Her bottom sitting started to get better and her poop was more consistently short and the color of her food; so when she had stopped bottom sitting altogether I started feeding her jump start. I fed her jump start for about two and a half weeks and then switched to pro gold and hikari gold. She seemed fine, the little holes in the caudal fin hadn't gone away but her behavior was normal and she seemed to be doing well. She was seemingly healthy for around a month and I was rather pleased with myself for resolving everything.

Then four days ago I awoke to find her caudal fin shredded near the tip on the side that previously had the holes. I normally maintain her water at about .14-.2% salt. It was at about .14% when her fin ripped apart. So I did a 50% water change and waited 36 hours and kept the salt at .14%. Then I dipped her tail in hydrogen peroxide, did another 50% water change and raised the salt to about .20%. I waited another 24 hours and raised the salt to .28%, and it's been there for about 30 hours.

At this point Jack has been bottom sitting with her pelvic and anal fins clamped tightly, her one pectoral fin limp but not clamped and her dorsal fin about half erect for about five hours. Her caudal fin hasn't gotten noticeably worse since salting, however I have noticed one more tear farther up the fin that I don't think was there before, but it hasn't gotten noticeably better either.

I know I don't have much longer that I can leave her tank at .28% salt, I believe I can only leave it like that for another 18hours, so what does everyone think I should do?

Please ask as many clarifying questions as possible as I have never posted this kind of thing before and don't know everything you ladies and gents might want to know.

Thanks you so much for your time and help,

Colin

[Guest Steri]

I know that I'm new here and no one knows me but if anyone has any suggestions I would be greatly indebted to them. I have read about a lot of different medicines and I don't know which I should use or if I should even move to that step yet. I don't have any really good lfs's around here so my medicinal choices are limited to whatever they have at vvvv and mmm.

Thanks again

Colin

[CAC10Hunter 0]

First I am not a pro at this. A fumbling novice is probably more appropriate. I am currently having issues with one of my own fish but just curious on a couple things.

1. Have you tried the green pea's solutions that many promote on here?

2. Have you tried Mar I and II? Since they are a broad spectrum antibiotic (according to the paperwork) its the fish equivalent of what a doc would give you if your sick.

As for my fish, It does appear that the salt and Mar meds have been having a slight effect. He appears to be breathing a little easier and seems to be moving a bit easier. He is still lying on his side though and not eating.

[Newfishmom 0]

Hi and welcome to Koko's - I am no expert, in fact, I have relied heavily on the mods here to guide me in caring for my goldies - since your water params all check out, the first indication would be that it is something bacterial, but I too am new so I don't know of any specific bateria. I will tell you this, and it's only my experience, I have seen where keeping the tank salted all the time did result in mild cases of fin rot for some goldies - not saying this is what happened to yours, but I have seen it.

Whenever the poop goes bad like that and there is bottom sitting, the first thing I do is change the water out about 90% - I also give the filter intake tubes, etc., a good cleaning - it always surprises me how much gets stuck in the tubes that only comes out with special brushes that they sell at the petstore. The last time I had bottom sitting, I hit my tank hard - First, I dosed my tank with Prazi - the real stuff - the powder - for any parasites - I have a 46 gallon tank and Daryl recommended a 1/2 tsp for the tank and then retreat at 48 hours - she also had me put it in a container and shake it really well before I add it to the tank - mix it as much as possible. I also dosed the tank with Maracyn I and II hoping to wipe out any bacterial infections. At the same time, I fed the Medigold - I can't remember where I got the actual Prazi powder, I will go check my records, etc., but this is what I did with Daryl and some other great Mods' advice, and I am happy to say that my goldies have been ok (knock on wood) for a few weeks now...

Like I said, I am very new to this, and am nervous about this advice - but I know it's hard when you put a post in 911 and you don't get a quick response....maybe someone else can come along with more experience and give additional advice. I just know for me that the Maracyns and Prazi powder are the only thing that truly helped my goldies..

Good luck.

[Guest Steri]

Thank you CAC10Hunter and Newfishmom for your responses. I was thinking that mar I and II were going to be one of my only options because of how cruddy my lfs's are. I don't know where to get prazi in town, but from what I've read I was definatly thinking that that was a good idea as well.

I'll try to look up the pea solution that you mentioned CAC10Hunter. If no one else contradicts the two of you I will start the tank on a course of mar I and II tomorrow, and I will probably order prazi and some more medi gold from goldfish connection. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Also I forgot to mention that I have a UV sterilizer in line with my fluval.

Thanks

Colin

[Guest Steri]

I have been looking at gf connection and I found a product called antibac-bath it says:

"Antibac-Bath is an excellent Anti-infection medication for treating bacterial and fungus type diseases. Treats fin and tail rot, mouth fungus and open sores. Found very effective against many antibiotic resistant bacteria. Antibac-Bath is the next best method to antibiotic injections. 100 capsules, treats 1000 gallons."

Should I try this product, which would require me to wait for it to be shipped to me? Or should I just try maracyn I and II? I want to place my order on wednesday August 8th so if anyone wants to chime in and give me their opinion I would really appreciate it.

Also I'm worried about my lionhead (who has yet to let me know what his/her name or sex is). I don't have a qt tank at the moment because I'm in school and thus strapped, so I will have to treat my main 55gal and I want to know if I should be worried about dosing him/her with all these meds when she is in good health?

One more thing. Is prazi a good idea as a safety precaution? Jack hasn't been flashing or scratching and she doesn't gasp at the surface, although she does like to hang out in the bubbles from my 3/4 length bubble wall occasionally and "eat" them then burp them out, and she does have partially clamped fins.

Thanks I know I have a lot of questions and I appreciate everyones patience,

Colin

Edited August 8, 2007 by Steri

[Trinket 108]

You say that you have always kept salt in there at the level between .05 and .2%? Can you confirm that Steri? Is that for 3 years? Or 3 weeks? I'm confused on that point..If longterm I am wondering about salt creep.

Salt creep is when the salt level has gotten higher than you think and has a corrosive effect on the slime coat. At very high levels it can erode the slime coat to the point of making small holes. A fresh water tank does not usually have to be salted on a regular basis.

Although salt is an excellent treatment for some kinds of fin rot it can also be dangerous at high or erratic levels. Do you have a salinity meter or any way of knowing the exact salinity level of the tank as it is now.

You have 2 fish in a 55 gallon. They have good conditions, plenty of space and what looks like good water.You have a UV steriliser that kills a huge array of surface bacteria. You have introduced nothing new into their environment. Presuming you are doing your filter rinsing and gravel vacs regularly I would say you do not need to add prazi (parasite meds) to your tank. Prazi (which contains the antibiotic praziquantel) or most meds for that matter should not really be used as 'preventative'.

I have some farther Qs for you before a Mod chimes in and/or you decide on the right medication or treatment for your moor.

Is the fishes abdomen looking swollen? Does she list to one side when bottom sitting (even slightly) Is one side of the abdomen larger than the other? Is there any sign of swelling or redness in the anal area? Is she breathing normally or irregularly? Are the gills red and meaty as they should be (viewed from behind) and can you describe the fin decay a little more? Is therea white chalky line there?

Are the holes ragged or regular? Any raised scales?

And also is there any chance that you have had a cycle bump from over cleaning? Have you been away/changed the feeding regime at all?

Sorry for all the questions- hope we can get a clear picture to help more exactly. An actual pic would be great!!

[Guest Steri]

You say that you have always kept salt in there at the level between .05 and .2%? Can you confirm that Steri? Is that for 3 years? Or 3 weeks? I'm confused on that point..If longterm I am wondering about salt creep....Do you have a salinity meter or any way of knowing the exact salinity level of the tank as it is now.

The tank is always kept at .14% even when they are not sick. It some times gets a little higher like .20% but I try to keep it at .14%. I did this because I though it was a good preventative measure against cycle bumps and parasites and stuff. I do have a way of measuring the salinity, I have a Pond Care master Liquid test kit for ponds which is made by API. This kit contains a salt level test. I only salt when necessary to maintain the .14% and I use API aquarium salt which says it's made of evaporated sea water.

Is the fishes abdomen looking swollen?

No she is looking normal.

Does she list to one side when bottom sitting (even slightly)

No while bottom sitting, although there was a short period when she was sick in may or june that she did. And she lists a little while swimming (which she has done a little of today) but I think that is due to her only having one pectoral fin.

Is one side of the abdomen larger than the other?

No not visibly.

Is there any sign of swelling or redness in the anal area?

No redness and I don't think there's any swelling it does protrude slightly but I think that's because she's a lady.

Is she breathing normally or irregularly?

She appears to be breathing normally possibly a little shallow.

Are the gills red and meaty as they should be (viewed from behind)

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing them she isn't opening her gill plates very far. Should I try to pick her up so she breathes harder and I can get a better angle for viewing. I try not to handle her unless absolutely necessary like when she got a rock stuck in her throat, so I only want to do it if it's a big concern.

and can you describe the fin decay a little more? Is therea white chalky line there?

Are the holes ragged or regular?

I would call the holes ragged but they are very small. There is some transparent white around parts of the large tears and there seems to be a good amount of tissue missing but it's hard to judge because obviously when the tail rips it spreads out. I will have my sister take some photographs (She's an aspiring photog with a really nice camera) around 12:30 my time and I will post them because I really don't know how to describe the fin decay except to say it scares me!

Any raised scales?

No none.

Thank you so much Trinket for all of your good questions I hope that my responses were adequate.

Colin

[Guest Steri]

Oh and yes I do a gravel vac once a week and clean the filter catridges and medium with tank water once or twice a month. Is that enough filter maintenance or should I do it once a week?

[Guest Steri]

Here are the pics I promised. They are the best I could do. This literally happened over night and is really worrying me. The pin point holes I described are not visible in these pics and I was unable to get a good pic of them. They are not a huge concern to me however considering how the end of the fin looks! So I ordered medi gold and antibac-bath from gf connection today. I'm thinking time is of the essence and I should not wait for them to come. What does everyone think? Should I start her on Mar I and II or should I wait as much as a week for antibac-bath?

[Guest Steri]

Ok so I felt like I had to do something immediately to prevent Jack's condition from getting worse. I did a 50% water change to lower the salt, it is now around .14%, and I got some mar I and II and started the tank on it. I of course removed my penguin filter cartridges which still have the charcoal in them and I turned off my UV sterilizer to be sure that nothing in the system would neutralize the medicine.

I would really like to know if I am doing the right thing! If anyone could either give me some more guidance or some encouragement it would be really appreciated.

Thanks,

Colin

[magscat3161 1]

Hi Collin! Welcome to Koko's glad you finally came out of the shadows! Reading through your thread and through Trinket's line of questioning (doesn't Trinket just rock!) I'd strongly suspect fin rot and secondary internal bacterial infection(s). Any one can feel free to correct me in case I missed something.

Perhaps someone else may have more suggestions for you but I think you're doing just about everything that you can for her at the moment. The only other thing I might suggest is putting her back on anti-biotic food to give her a full coverage of meds.

[CAC10Hunter 0]

Guidance Ill reserve for the mods.

To help you out maybe I can just tell you how im getting along with my treatment of my fish. I know its hard to just sit there while its obvious your charge is in trouble but thats what I'm basically doing. Im following the directions on the MI&II and keeping the tank salted per the instructions on the bottle. Im doing 100 Percent water changes seasoned for 12-24 hours and treated with Prime every 24 hours as well. I have my fish in only 5 gallons of water at the moment due to him lying on his side and dont want to much weight on him.

Basically I am doing everything I can at the moment. Some things give me encouragement regarding his progress, others dont. His color is becomming more normal and he has a bit more bouyancy so that is a good sign. Yet the damage to his fins seems to be spreading. His tail is very ragged now.

So its a waiting game. Ill continue the meds as directed and hope for the best. What else is there?

Hope this helps

[Guest Steri]

Thank you CAC10Hunter and Ryukinluver your comments made me feel a lot less alone in this struggle. Yeah Trinket does rock those were some very good questions. I do plan to put Jack back on antibiotic food but I only have a little medigold left and I don't want to start treating and have to stop because I ran out, I did order more from gf connection today so I'll start her on it as soon as it gets here.

You are 100% right CAC10Hunter I am doing all I can for Jack and I really should just step back and chill out a little and remember that. I just have a special connection to Jack because she was my first gf and she has been through a lot due to my complete lack of knowledge about gf care when I got her. I made her sick many times due to my fumbling in the begining, and now that I have a grasp on what is actually involved in keeping her healthy I hate to see her suffer anymore. I just don't want my ignorance to be the cause of any other beings suffering let alone hers! I guess that's why I've been a little frantic the past few days.

Thanks and I'd love to hear from a mod or two if they have any suggestions,

Colin

[Guest Steri]

A little update, Jack is now swimming almost all the time and she seems somewhat energetic. However after about three days of treatment her tail seems to have not made any poitive progress. Is there anything I can do? Does tail rot take a long time to heal? When my little lionhead got a rip in her tail it healed in a couple days, what's the difference?

Thanks,

Colin

[Ranchugirl 17]

Hi, Colin, and !

Looks like you are doing everything you can for Jack, and you are seing at least somewhat of a progress. As to his tail, it can take a while for it to get back to it sold self again, and as long as it doesn't progress any worse, it is a good sign.

I read on the puregold website, which is being created by one of the best goldfish experts for decades now, that fin problems can have several reasons, and not all of them are fin rot. Nitrate sensitivity is one of them, pH imbalances is another, so is intolerance to salt. Reading that you have salt in there on a constant basis, my thinking is that you should stop adding salt alltogether for a couple of weeks, and see if the tail gets any better.

I know that a nitrate reading of 20ish isn't actually high, but some fish are indeed sensitive to even that. How old is your rest kit? You mention it is hard to read, so maybe its time to get a backup test kit where the results are easier to read, plus the kit itself is more reliable. Did you ever have a look at the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, or is that what you are using already? Its a drop test kit, and much better than those test strips that seem to be so popular.

Anyway, you did good with the Maracyn in the water now. The goldfishconnection items might not be here for another couple of days, and its good that you have something in the water now.

[Guest Steri]

I read on the puregold website, which is being created by one of the best goldfish experts for decades now, that fin problems can have several reasons, and not all of them are fin rot. Nitrate sensitivity is one of them, pH imbalances is another, so is intolerance to salt. Reading that you have salt in there on a constant basis, my thinking is that you should stop adding salt alltogether for a couple of weeks, and see if the tail gets any better.

I know that a nitrate reading of 20ish isn't actually high, but some fish are indeed sensitive to even that. How old is your rest kit? You mention it is hard to read, so maybe its time to get a backup test kit where the results are easier to read, plus the kit itself is more reliable. Did you ever have a look at the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit, or is that what you are using already? Its a drop test kit, and much better than those test strips that seem to be so popular.

Thank you so much for your response! I have read about nitrate sensitivity for a long time, and have considered that that may be the cause of my issues. I have been trying my best to keep them as low as possible but sometimes they can creep up. After my last water change, before I added the meds, I got a reading of around 5 so I hope I'm in good shape, and I'm going to try to maintain that reading as best I can.

I do have the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit which is a drop kit, I just don't like how close the reds are to each other, sometimes it's really hard to tell exactly what reading you got especially when it gets around 20 and up. My test kit for Nitrates is about a year old so I hope it is still in good shape. If anyone thinks that's too old let me know and I'll buy a new one.

I think I will try lowering my salt even more. I'm due for a water change on monday because I believe that the Mar instructions call for a water change after all five dosages have been administered. I guess all I have to do is not add any salt when I do my water change and I'm good so that's easy.

I don't think my PH is an issue. What exactly do you mean by ph imbalances? Do you mean fluctuations? or high/low levels? My PH is stable and consistant at 7.6 so I don't think it can give Jack too much trouble.

Thanks,

Colin

[CAC10Hunter 0]

Hows Jack doing? The meds help I hope?

[Guest Steri]

Yes thank you the meds have helped a bit. Jacks fin looks a bit ragged still but it has not gotten worse and it's hard to tell but it seems that the white around all the edges has lessened. She is swiming now but her dorsal fin is not fully erect and she seems to be swiming close to the ground as though she doesn't have much strength to really swim strongly. My ammonia levels have left zero and I did a 50% water change yesterday and the day before and I plan to do one today as well so hopefully I can keep everything low enough while the cyle is being reestablished that Jack can continue to recover.

Thanks,

Colin

[Ranchugirl 17]

Jack is hanging in there, that is good. And remember, sometimes an issue not worsening is an improvement all by itself.

With a test kit that is around a year old, I would think that it might be a bit unreliable, and fetch a new one if you can. What helps me with reading those little cards is holding the bottles and cards close together and up against something white, and in bright light. Don't laugh, but I use my front door to read test results - its a white door in bright light, but no sunlight. I can see the differences in red so much better like that, although I don't want to know what my neighbors think. But who cares, they probably think I am nuts already...

[Guest Steri]

Ok I will take you advice and buy a new test kit. I actually do hold it up to the sunlight when I read it and I use the white of the color card as a background, but maybe it would easier with a piece of paper. I'm sure all neighbors of goldfish owners think we're nuts. I take 5 5gal jugs out in front of my house, sometimes several times a week, and fill them up with the hose. I can't imagine what my neighbors must think of that!

Colin

[Ranchugirl 17]

Colin, that isn't weird... You know what is however? I have tanks in the living room, and when I do water changes, I have 3 30gl garbage cans sitting infront of the tanks. Wonna know how I fill those up? I get the water hose from the front of the house, through the front door, into the living room. I can just see the neighbors: "Don't tell me she waters the plants in her house with the hose!" or mabye "You think she washes her floors with the hose?"

[Guest Steri]

That's so funny you that say that because this last week I have been doing the same thing. The cycle is messed up in Jack's tank as a result of the meds so I have been doing water changes everyday. I got really sick of carrying the 5gal jugs inside so I have been brining the hose in the front door as well. It seems like the neighbors are leaving everytime I'm walking in the front door with the hose. They must think I'm nuts standing just inside the house with the hose in my hand waving.

A quick update on Jack. Her tail seems to be healing it isn't nearly as shredded but it still looks a little raggedy. I have her on medigold now. Yesterday she was bottom sitting all day, except for a brief stint of swimming upside down, however today she seems to be swimming just fine. Her poop doesn't look that great right now, it is alternating between being long thin and white and long thin and the color of her food.

Should I treat the tank again, this time with anitbac-bath, or should I just keep feeding medigold and do nothing? I'm worried about treating the tank again because having the tank with a messed up cycle for so long seems like it would be awefully stressful on Jack.

Thanks,

Colin

[Ranchugirl 17]

Colin, I have never tried antibac personally, so I can't tell you if it effects the cycle or now. However, you can give Rick a call, and if the Antibac does effect the filter, he'll tell you so.

Other than that, I would probably continue with the medicated food right now. I believe it says on the package of maracyn I/II that you can go for a second round if needed (I might be wrong here, I don't have a package handy at the moment myself to check that out), but it does effect the filter a bit. I always believe that less is more when it comes to treatment, and to always take care of the water first and foremost.

[Ranchugirl 17]

Colin, I assume no news is good news?