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Mckenzie My 6inch Fantail

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PLEASE HELP!

ammonia 0%

nitrite. 0%

PH 7.8

nitrate 5 ppm

46 gallon tank - had since September, 2005 -

I have two Penguin 200 filters and a Penguin 150.

I have three goldies in my tank - two of them are two inches not counting their fins and one is about six inches -

I use Prime. I change the water weekly - about 80%

I feed Pro Gold and Spriulina Flakes BUT the fish have been on medicated food for fifteen days now

About six weeks ago, I lost my black ryukin to what I thought was egg impaction - now I am not so sure - she was fine one day, then just lifeless on the bottom the next - NOTHING worked and she died a day later.

NOW, my beautiful McKenzie is showing symptoms of being sick. I have had her on medicated food for fifteen days - I've been changing water every other day - she had about eight days ago, red spots (patches?) on her underbelly - I thought it was from bottom sitting, so I changed out the water and salted the tank - the red spots when away, but now where they were I see two black marks -they look like two small circles of black - I don't know if I am explaining right, but basically, they remind me of what a cheap pen would do if you left it on its tip and it would leak - does this make sense? Plus, she is bottom sitting again! After I had started the antibiotics and salted the tank, she stopped bottom sitting - suddenly this a.m., she is doing it again.

I just dosed the tank with pure Prazi, thanks to Daryl's guidance, and am hoping that will help - in the meantime - what are those two black spots? I don't know what else to do to help her. I CAN'T lose her too - she is such a sweet fish - I am so worried - she doesn't look good. Can I salt the tank AND dose with Prazi? I am so confused and worried. Please helP! :krazy:

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Usually these spots are seen as the fish is healing from ammonia surges. The area that was burned will turn black and this is the healing sign. The spots should fade within about 2 weeks. Orange Goldfish will sometimes turn black on their back and sides. After about 7 days the patches disappear and the fish appears orange. This is known as "Melanophore Migration" and is usually caused by any type of chemical irritant or traumatic injury. Some very common causes: high level of ammonia, low pH, flukes, or ick. The black color will not show up until the irritant is removed and the skin begins to heal. However if there are snails in the tank or the fish are living in ponds you should read below.

These spots could be from the pigmented cysts that contain the larval stage of a trematode intestinal fluke. Symptoms: Small black or brown spots up to 2 mm (0.08 inches) across. These spots appear on the body and fins of the fish and sometimes on their mouth and eyes. Treatment: Modern anti-parasite treatments should kill the parasites. The spots once formed may remain on the fish.

Info found here

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most likely the black spots are a sign of healing (unless you have snails or some other parasite) This is not to say that there may not be something else wrong with the fish

Edited by Ryukinluver

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Do you have any reason to think there may have been an ammonia spike or bump in the cycle? I'm noticing that your tank's been up since 2005 so it clearly is fully cycled.

I'm hoping a disease expert will be along soon to help you.

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Anything is possible - perhaps there was a spike. I don't know. But she is miserable and bottom sitting - I have the 100% pure Prazi in there - I am thinking of adding Maracyns as well - can I mix them?

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If no one answers, you should try PMing Daryl or Trinket.

My guess would be to excluse ammonia burns as a cause due to the age of your tank - unless any of the recent meds could have bumped the cycle? - but I imagine you've been testing regularly along with w/changing?

As you already have Prazi and are dosing with med food, I would hold off on Maracyn until you get advice.

Hoping things will improve soon.

Pixie

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I know that Prazi and salt are compatible together and that the 2 maracyns and prazi are compatible all-right but I am unsure about using all 3 weapons in sinc. It prob isn't necessary. Prazi is from what I've been reading a kind of supermed and even more so when combined with .3% salt . You also have the antibiotic meds to feed so I imagine that is enough for the moment.

Also prazi and the salt will not harm your cycle but using the maracyns as well might give you a bump..and you'd need to remove the carbons so have to watch your params daily.

About the black-if you have other symptoms like you said the red areas -that may be bacterial sores, clamped fins? bottom sitting you may want to check with a magnifying lens if the black parts are slightly raised or slightly sunken. Either may mean infection. If they are not then it could be the melanophore blackening mentioned-the fishes healing process after some trauma including spikes of ammonia or nitrites.

I know its worrying because you lost your ryukin but McKenzie sounds a big strong fish, you are doing your best and I hope things improve for her very soon :heart

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Hi NFM, So sorry to hear about McKenzie and I certainly hope she is on the mend.

About the black spots, Nugget (who just passed away last night :cry1 ) developed them a year ago. I know it was not healing after an ammonia spike as I was testing the water daily. Touchofsky mentioned that it could be signs of healing after other things as well including the use of meds. We pinned it down to the use of salt (I was salting the tank to 0.3% at the time which I thnik you said you did recently?). We thought that some of the salt may have burned the scales and the black was healing from that (I may not have had it all mixed up well when I dumped it in?). Anyway it is just another thought. For Nugget the blackness went away after a week or so.

Good luck and keep us posted - I sure do hope she recovers :heart .

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Oh Sea! Not Nugget! I AM SO SO SO SORRY!! UGH! My heart broke for you when I read that. It's so hard, isn't it - I hope you feel better soon. Time helps. It's hard losing a little fishie, heartbreaking. I think for you and I, we've spent so much time devoted to caring for them and keeping them healthy, it's even harder in some ways. My thoughts are with you.

I have no salt in my tank right now. I put Maracyn I and II in the tank because I swear last night I thought McKenzie had the start of popeye. It already looks better today. The black spots, however, do not. In fact, there is now one more whereas yesterday there were only two. They are not raised, just flat marks - she actually is a little better today in that she is no longer bottom sitting or clamping fins like when I first did this post - I am sure it is the combo of Prazi and Maracyns, which I intend to continue full course - I also ordered Metromed, because like I said, I could have sworn I saw beginning popeye (freaked me out) -the other med food was the one from Jungle Labs, so Metromed is much much better -

I just wish I know what THE HECK those black spots were. She is so busy, I can't get a picture. I guess the fact that she is not sitting nose up and floating aimlessly is a good thing, I just hope she's ok. I am very attached to her - she is over six inches, and she was ot even an inch when I got her three years ago... At this point, I suppose I should just continue Prazi and Maracyn and cross my fingers - I'll have the Metromeds on Monday. I only hope she's ok...

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Trinket..if you happen to catch this..I don't think the black spots are "healing" for anything..although McKenzie is up and around, I am feeling very concerned...I guess I should just watch the spots while I medicate, right?

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I was just reading through again. Its so easy to miss clues and the fish owner is very often the best person to diagnose these black areas, knowing the fishes history as you do. As sea mentioned any spike of anything can be an irritant and the fish responds by producing the melanophores . They can be caused by too strong a dose of medication -for example -whatever kind. And that could have been some time ago, because the pigmentation takes some time to come through.

The 'healing' black pigment cells is the fishes response to leukine the chemical that the fish itself produces to

repair itself. The melanophores are like a human's allergic rash reaction (hives)- the fish cannot tell if the leukine is a poison or not. That's why they can appear after some trauma or damage.

If you look up close you can probably distinguish with a lens between the melaphore type pigmentation and something else. If the black area is raised or sunken, however slight- then you are looking at other things like infection or as Ryukinluver said damage to an internal organ- kidney, intestine -where are the marks exactly and when did you first notice them?

You said they look like they are leeching like afelt pen so I would guess pigmentation but I can't see them

and its only a guess. When fish are infested with parasites or sick, they may display secondary symptoms fast. The main thing is you are medicating her and doing what you can to help her build up her own strength

to fight all this. The slight pop eye too can be a secondary bacterial issue too and also incidentally a response to trauma. Sensitive creatures :heart

I know prazi plus the maracyns do wonders and pleased to hear she is up and around a bit. I really think you are doing all you can at this point.

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I think that Trinket explained the the black spots and healing very well. Mine also looked like a smudged magic marker and expanded and then changed to grey before gradually going away.

I hope that McKenzie continues to do better. One other thing I can mention is that when I used Prazi a while back my fish initally responded poorly to it, meaning that they hid and bottom sat and looked miserable. I was so tempted to stop the meds but didn't and over time my fish started to look better. Maybe if there are parasites (in my case I think it was gill flukes) and the Prazi starts to work it takes its toll on the fish and temporarily makes them feel worse? Then as the meds kick in and get rid of the parasites the fish starts to look and feel better? Pure speculation on my part but it is what I saw when I used Prazi.

I am hoping for the best for you guys

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That's interesting sea about your evaluation of prazi and got me thinking. Although it is supposedly this mild magic drug it is a veterinary antibiotic and there are humans and presumably fish and animals that are going to be antibiotic sensitive or allergic.

In some countries prazi is used to treat intestinal worms in a single dose for humans. In humans side effects I read are found in 90% of patients (stomach cramps, headache and ....curiously...rash. To name a few) It stands to reason there may be side effects of any drug used with fish too.

I think how it works is the prazi paralyses the parasites in a dehydrating way that kills them but they are still there..so the fish or host has to then dispose of the dead organisms presumably through the liver..in humans antibiotics work thus. In a fish with a huge parasite load or one that is very weak already that may be the camel straw feature.

Just some thoughts.

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THANK YOU SO MUCH to all of you - you are so wonderful - bless. I don't know what I would do without Koko's board. I AM POSITIVE none of my fishies would have made it past six months! Ok...the black marks are where the big red mark was when this all started about two weeks ago - she suddenly had a big red mark on her under belly - it went from mid to back towards her long fin in the back - I am going to try and get a picture - It is definitely not raised or sunken - so perhaps I oversalted when I saw the red mark? (by the way, I still can't pinpoint what that red mark was from - it came and went so quickly!)

Anyways, my girl is on day three of Maracyns, and she is NOT bottom sitting, not clamping her fins and I see no further signs of any popeye - I am feeling relieved A LITTLE. I wonder, should I still put her on Metromed when it comes? What do you guys think? She had two doses of Prazi and now the Maracyns...plus, she had the Jungle Labs Antibac. Food for 15 days...

Also, I am worried about my cycle, I keep using Prime because that Jungle Lab food really made the fishies poop a lot more than usual - I was cleaning the tank twice a week - b ut now with the Maracyns, I can't change water for five days so I am worried about that...is Prime going to be enough?

Thanks again - I am going to try and get a picture of her belly..

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Glad to hear she is getting better :)

When I asked the folks at Mardel about that they said that since most of the meds are gone or inactive after 24 hours it was ok to do a partial water change 24 hours after a dose and then add the next dose to the tank after the partial change. They did not say to add extra meds to make up for the amount you change out but I think one of the mods here said to do that in an old post. I don't think I would do an 80% change like you usually do but perhaps a smaller change plus the extra Prime should be ok. I do think it is important to check your params as using both marcyns together can bump the cycle (plus all the other stuff you have going on could affect it as well).

I doubt I would start the metromed but it will be good to have on hand should you see her getting worse or if anything else pops up (but maybe one of the experts will think differently.)

Again, I am so glad she is on the mend :heart

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Ok..that makes sense - I will change out about 20% (just enough to get the extra waste out) and then re-add the next dose...eek - it's scary because I just am not sure about these black spots, I go back and forth, back and forth..I hope she makes it - she seems so much better but I am still a little worried..here is a shot of her spots - in the picture they look way more raised then they really are..I don't know, I am just not sure.

post-7007-1185129733_thumb.jpg

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sorry everyone, but I can't add a picture all of the sudden :( can anyone look at the spots and tell me what they think?

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can anyone look at the spots and tell me what they think?

The pic is really small because it doesn't enlarge when hovering. Have you tried looking online to compare the spots to see what they look like to you, and maybe you can show us what they look like up close?

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