Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Clockman

Still Suffering Ick (i Think)

Recommended Posts

Guest Clockman

About two weeks ago, I diagnosed ick on several fish in my pond. I had recently introduced two new fish to a population that had not seen new members in many years. As a result, everyone seems to be suffering. The oldest butterfly koi may be in serious danger. His scales are lifted away from his body, there are white patches all over, he looks bug-eyed and cloudy and his fins are rotting away.

I'm an idiot for resisting salting the pond, but before I finally do, I have used Desafin twice with no luck (dosed at night). I had good luck with Clout on one I had removed.

Can I Clout the whole pond? Will it kill my water lily?

Can I put five fish (about less than six inches each) into a five gallon tank and clout them? If I can, will the ick die out in the pond if I do a major water change and keep them out for several days?

Am I forced to salt the pond and try to find a way to save the lily?

:krazy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

couldnt you move the water lily? 5 gallons is way to small. Sounds like your fishie has dropsy. try the salt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Clockman

It sounds like you're correct. Is this because I've waited so long? I think so.

How much salt should be added to a 150 gallon pond? Will I need to remove the snails as well as the lily? How do I add the salt; how do I mix it? Do I need to feed them now too? Will it kill my algae that they subsist on? Looks like a trip to the store tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully someone with pond experience will come along and give you good advice (in fact i will pm one of the mods who does), but if you have a fish with dropsy (usually you can tell by pineconed scales/sticking out scales) you are not going to want to treat that one in the pond I don't think. Dropsy requires antibiotics, (medicated food is the best), and then epsom salt (not regular salt) to decrease the swelling. Heated water helps too. If it were me, I would remove that one fish with the scales sticking out and try to treat it in a hospital tank-but 5 gallons may be too small, depending on the size of the fish. Koi do not do well in tanks, but I don't think you will be able to treat dropsy in a pond so if that is your only alternative you may need to. Like I said though, I will pm one of the mods to take a look at your post.

Now, I am not sure if it is a good idea to salt ponds, I am not experienced in that area. There may be another medication that works much better for a pond situation (I am thinking PraziPro maybe?) But this is how you do it for tanks. I would remove the water lily before salting. For salting the other fish for the ick, you can use aquarium, pickling, solar, rock or ice cream salt. The important thing is to check the ingredients list on the package and make sure the only ingredient listed is SALT-if there is anything else do not use it, it could kill your fish. If it says it is for aquariums it is ok to use though, even if it has other ingredients-grovery store salt is usually cheaper though, just check the ingredients. For 150 gallons you would want to start by putting in 50 tablespoons of salt to get it to .1%. You mix the salt with pond water until it is dissolved and then pour it in, away from any filters or fish. Then 12 hours later you would add another 50 tablespoons, bringing it yto .2%. Then 12 hours later, another 50 tablespoons bringing it to .3%, which is where you want it for ick. If you change out water then you need to replace any salt you removed. I don't *think* the salt will kill your algae, but I am not positive.

That is all I can say for now, I will pm one of the mods who has lots of pond experioence and hopefully she will answer soon so you can take her advice instead of mine.

If you had to go to a pet store before getting someone else's advice, this is what I would pick up:

Jungle anti-bacterial medicated pond food (Metro-meds are better but must be ordered online)

Maracyn 1 and 2 (antibiotics for the dropsy fish)

*maybe some Prazi-Pro...read the instructions and see if it treats ick

Aquarium salt (although cheaper at a grovery store using rock, pickling, etc.)

Epsom salt (may have to go to drug store for that) and don't use it in the pond-only if you hospital the dropsied one in a tank

Good luck, hopefully the mod will see this soon.

Edited by jen626

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there clockman - it sounds like some problems have taken hold :(

I'm a great believer that salt is the best, most gentle method of eradicating ich however, it sounds as though this wasn't/isn't the only problem. I have a few questions for you:

- can you test your water and post back ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and importantly pH?

- when you say "his scales are lifted away from his body, there are white patches all over, he looks bug-eyed and cloudy and his fins are rotting away" do the white patches look slimy? Greyish in spots? Are the scales sticking completely out? Or are they slightly raised? Is any of the skin on the body open? Red?... How do your other fish look? Any similar symptoms? There's a good chance a secondary bacteria is at play here and some of the symptoms would indicate it could be columnaris - a virulent strain of bacteria.

- where abouts are you? What kind of bacterial meds are available to you? I would suggest treating with both maracyn one and two which will also resolve most strains of bacteria

- do you have a large tub you can use as a hospital tank for your sickest fish?

- are the white spots still present?

- what's the current temp of your pond?

- what kind of filtration are you running?

- is there any chance you can take a pic of the affected fish and post back?

The simplest method I'd adopt for destroying ich in your pond would be:

1) Remove any live plants.

2) Raise temperature to 80 degrees if you can.

3) Increase aeration while the temps are raised

4) Add one teaspoon of salt per gallon

5) Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per gallon

6) Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per gallon

If your fish has columaris as well, treatment will need to be fast and quite agressive as it can destroy quickly but will wait for your confirmation/picture first :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Clockman

I'm heading off to work, so I can't test everything yet. I tested last week and all levels were in the safe zone. I live in southeastern Massachusetts and we've had very erratic temps this last month.

The worst koi is kind of "pine-coned" in that the scales are noticably sticking out, there is some redness around the gills, there are a couple black spots on the body and he looks bloated in the middle/front of his body compared to the rest. His eyes are very cloudy, but he's still eating and moving.

I don't really have anything other than the 5 gallon tank at the moment. He's about 8 inches long from tip to what is left of his tail. Everyone else looks fairly normal, but with a few spots of ick on the tail.

I don't know the brand of filter, but it's basically a coarse foam overlaying a finer foam, which overlays the aerating balls and pump. It has worked in this pond for over a decade with no issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wanted to add for ease of us, that you can either do one teaspoon of salt per gallon OR 3 tablespoons per 5 gallons. The dosage is often listed both ways and tablespoons might be faster than teaspoons with so much water. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Clockman

Well, he's in a five gallon tank with a filter, 10 teaspoons of salt and a medication that sounds like metro-nito-zol. He's active and swimming and eating. I only have a small tank, but he's about less than 8 inches long.

Per my local fish expert, I drained the pond 90% and refilled it, adding five pounds of salt to the 150 gallon pond. The filter is still running and I used the hose to stir up the sediment on the bottom in the hope that any parasites, etc. that may have hidden will be exposed the salt. The lily is safe, too.

I've attached some pics of him and you can see the scale loss and bugged eyes. Do you think this is dropsy or the result of ick? I have been instructed to change his water every 24 hours and redose with salt and medication for the next 10 days.

How long do I leave the salt in the pond? Then, once I'm ready, I'll have to drain it again, correct? Do you think since I'm changing the water every 24 hours, he'll be ok in that tiny tank? I really have no other option, other than buying another one ($$$)520662019_5f977170da.jpg520662027_4aa60cee01.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As JenW said, there is definetely something else going on here, and we need to find it, or you will lose at least one of your koi.

Now, here is the thoughts that have crossed my mind: You say that the pond is roughly 150 gl. How many fish are in there, what size, and how many of them are koi? How many gl/h is your pump rated for (it should say it somewhere on it)? With koi, they need a lot more space than goldfish, and 150 gl is something I would provide for maybe one large koi (12 inches and bigger) or 2-3 smaller ones. However, for smaller ones, that would only be a temporary home, since they usually need between 100-300 gl each depending on size.

As to what else might be bugging your fish - fin rot and either fungus or columnaris comes to mind. This would be the whitish stuff on your koi. How is the pH doing - any drops lately? That also could explain the whitish film. When you touch the fish, does he have an excessive slime coat, more than usual?

The reason pH, and probably ammonia issues (black patches on your koi) is popping up in my head is, you added 2 new fish. Those increased the amount of ammonia that will be produced by your fish, yet your filter didn't have a chance at this point to catch up with the load. Might be that there isn't enough filter media in it, or it just takes a little time for the beneficial bacteria to multiply to a number that can take care of 2 extra fish.

Either way, pH/ammonia/nitrite readings are the most important at this point, and continue testing every day, probably even twice, to see if anything moves in either way.

As for salt, there is an easier measurements for ponds - 1 lb per 100 gl of water. That would bring it up to 0.1% of salt. Give the same treatment 3 times alltogether, with 12 hours inbetween each. I prefer pickling salt or rock salt, its cheap (2 bucks for 4 lb here), and its harmless to your fish. But as Jen said, anything that says "pure salt with no additives or anti caking agents" is fine. Water lilies and snails need to be removed for the treatment however.

Salt does not treat everything that is going on in your pond - it'll take care of the fungus, as well as the Ich. If it is something else like columnaris, then you would need different medication, which is hard to dose in a pond. Some of the meds that Jen recommended, you would need a bucket full to treat a pond.

The koi also needs to be treated separately, the regular salt alone isn't going to do it for him. Jen's treatment suggestion is perfect, and you'd need a bigger rubbermaid container for that. Depending on the size of the koi, anything from 30 gl to 50 gl is good. But put some pond netting over the rubbermaid - I have a feeling the koi would want to get out of there, and tries to jump.

For now, the readings would be best to have, how many fish, and you can add the salt. Find something for the koi to go into, and we'll try to go from there.

Whatever questions you might have, fire away. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, my post was so long, that our posts must have crossed. The name of the medication - can you read it off of the container? Metronidazole is a good medication for bacterial issues, if that is what you bought.

I see you already added some salt. With the 5 lb, that could have been too much all at once. With a dosage split up in three, its gentler on the fish, and they are less proned to get gill burns from the salt. However, what's done is done. With my dosage recommendations, you would have had 4 1/2 lbs after 3 treatments, so 5 lb is just a tad over, which isn't all that bad with salt.

The poor thing looks bad - and somehow thin. Is he always like that? I highly recommend to get him something bigger, he'll be majorly stressed. Not just by such a little tank, but also by the fact that he suddenly can see everything all around him. He isn't used to that, and koi especially get very nervous. Rubbermaids aren't see-throughs, so it would be easier on the fish. Honestly, I don't see him recovering in such a little tank at all. Its just nothing for a koi, no matter how small.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, a 5 gallon tank is just way too small for a koi, rubbermaids are cheap and easy to get, so I would defianently try that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Clockman

Well, sadly it died. I found it today floating. :cry1 While I'm sad it passed, I did see improvement. The body was less swelled up and they eyes were no longer bugged out. I'm going to hear about this one! My spouse kept telling me I was micromanaging the pond when I first saw the ick set in. I was told to leave them alone and they'd be fine; well, too late now! I knew something was up. Hopefully the rest will be ok soon.

How long should I leave the pond salted? When can I drain it and put the lily back in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am so sorry that your koi didn't make it, Clockman - he might have been too far gone, and with the added stress of a new environment... :(

The salt in the pond needs to be in there about 4-5 days after you don't see any more Ich on any of your fish. Reason being, the baby stage of the parasite is in egg form, and during this time encapseled, therefore no salt can get to it. All the last eggs need to hatch, and then get killed off by the salt. A lot of people make the mistake of removing the salt too soon, and then have another Ich infestation afterwards yet again.

So, watch them for any Ich spots, and go from there. Until then, the lily has to stay out of the pond. What color is it? Just curious - I got my first lily of this season yesterday, and its a red one. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are your fish doing, Clockman? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...