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Cannot Figure This Out


karla80

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Hi, short history of Casper

He lost his best friend of 4-5 years a few weeks ago but he was still eating and more or less active. I got a friend for him which i believe startled him, since he's only lived w/Butterball. Anyway, I think w/the addition of a new friend, Casper got a bit stressed out and I believe injured his tail fin and caused a part of it to turn red and then fall off. Since then he has not lost anymore fins and has shown no sign of progressive fin rot. He eats, normal breathing and gill movement, no scratching, gulping for air, etc. He is definitely a boy b/c of the many times he's mated w/Butterball. No sign of constipation, swimbladder issues b/c i checked his poop and it is the exact same color as his food and not stringy. I tested the water, everything is fine.

Ammonia and nitrite 0

nitrate between 10 and 15

ph 7.2

55 gallon, 2 fish, filters filtering 730gph

My problem is that he is bottom sitting most of the time and is only active when i put food in the water. He and his buddy have been on Junglelabs antibacterial food since saturday and to be honest i'm not even sure how to feed them this since the pellets float. I do presoak, which i am unsure if this is ok. I decided to treat him w/the antibacterial food just to be safe. Plus since i do not know how long i would have to wait for my order of metromed, medigold and prazipro from the fish sempai, i wanted to get him started on something right away. I am hesitant to add any meds directly into the water since i'am unsure as to what i am dealing with. I did add so far .2% of aquarium salt and will be adding the last .1% soon to see if it helps. Could he just be stressed by the changes in his life, i.e. his friend's death, a new buddy, an injured tail all in one month? I am really worried :( . His buddy has been tail standing a bit but swims fine when getting food. Not completely tail standing but still a little angled.

thanks

karla

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Hi Karla.

Sorry to hear of the death of your fish. From personal experience I have seen fish (gf) grieve, so it is possible he is doing so. Whether or not that is the whole problem????????

Did you quarantine the new fish? If so for how long?

If not, you could've introduced a bacterial, fungal or parasitical infection to him.

I will wait to hear back from you, hopefully we can figure something out.

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Hi LaurieP, thanks for replying. I never did quarantine the new fish which I know is not right but while I was away, my family thought that it would be a good idea to clean up my apartment and I had a 20 gallon still setup on my desk and whoever tidied up my place moved my 20 gallon somewhere where I couldn't find it and this new guy was living alone for a while at the petstore. Casper is showing no signs except that he's not as active. What I noticed was that at first Casper was startled by a new addition but when he got close to the new guy from behind, I think Casper assumed Butterball was back b/c from behind, this guy looks like Butterball. Casper seemed excited and tried chasing the fish until he realized it was not Butterball and then refused to go near the fish. The new fish isn't tail standing now and likes to spend time w/Casper just laying there. I've been giving them the antibacterial food since saturday w/no real improvement. I just got my order from the fish sempai so i now have medigold, metromed and prazipro. I would send a pic but whoever cleaned my place moved the cord that attaches my camera to the computer for downloading photos/videos i do not know where :mad: . I know when a fish loses a longtime buddy, he/she can get depressed and pass away due to it, so i am unsure if that's the case here. Hard to tell if he has an infection b/c there appears to be not enough evidence. After he swims he acts like he's tired out. Can i give him antibacterial food while treating the tank w/prazipro in case of parasites or should i leave the fish alone unless another symptom appears? I'm about to add in the last dose of aquarium salt. Also junglelabs antibacterial food says to feed to fish 5 to 10 days, tomorrow is the 5th day so after tomorrow can i just switch to medigold or metromed?

Thanks again Laurie

karla

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Thanks Shamu23. :) I do not know, I'm thinking of putting prazipro into their tank but i'm not sure about how much. It says 3 tablespoons treats 900 gallons, which means one tablespoon per 300 gallons, therefore per 100 gallons is 1 tsp and per 50 gallons is half a teaspoon right? But if my tank is 55 gallons, how much should I put in the tank, 2.5ml + .5ml? Am i doing the right thing? Once in a while I see him and his buddy resting a bit sideways, not all the way sideways, just tilted a little and i'm not too sure but i think he's breathing a bit more faster than before, hard to tell b/c he's always been nervous when ppl stare at him. Gosh this is frustrating, I feel helpless :( . He occasionally looks for food and his poop is fine, normal.

Months before Butterball passed, I would occasionally see her leaning against the glass or ornament, then she was fine, demanding food, swimming a bit, not as active as when i first got her. She was like this for months. Could it be possible an infection would stay in a fish for months w/no real symptoms? I did treat her w/metromed twice a couple of months before her death. According to the fish sitters, she was fine, swimming, asking for food, eating, perfect and then by the time the sitter arrived to give them their afternoon meal, she was dead w/no sign of trauma, infection, etc. I've never treated for parasite, just bacteria b/c I thought if any fish had parasites it would be much more evident and would attack faster.

thanks

karla

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Hi, I dont know what could be wrong with your fishie. I also dont know if your doing the math right because I havent calculated but Im sure your right. My fishie was bottom sitting alot too, he died on saturday. :cry1

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I've been treating Casper w/junglelabs antibacterial food for 5 days and he appears to be getting worse :( .

Not knowing what else to do i did a 65% water change, removed the carbon and added prazipro. Since junglelabs says to treat for 5 to 10 days, i've decided to stop junglelabs med food since it's day 5 and switch to either medigold or metromed. Sorry no pic, i still cannot find the cord that connects the camera to the computer. Now he's grown this reddish area on his head. I'm still unsure if what i'm dealing w/is both bacterial and parasitic since junglelabs did not work and he seemed stressed by the salt even though i put it in little by little in 3 days until it reached .3%. In fact it was after the water change that he perked up a little, even though the water was already good. Still, he seems tired and breathing differently, maybe a bit faster than normal. He still eats so that's good and his poop looks healthy.

Is it ok to continue w/prazipro and feed antibacterial meds like medigold or metromed?

thanks

karla

ammonia, nitrite 0

nitrate 5

ph 7.2

did a 65% water change this morning and started prazipro

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ok :( , i think i know what Casper has. It appears to be septicemia b/c on his head he has red blotches, his fins are completely streaked w/red lines, and he has a bit of red dots on his belly. I started junglelabs antibacterial med food 5 days ago but they appeared to not have helped at all, in fact during treatment he just kept getting worse, but still eating so i started him on medigold today which he did eat this morning but this afternoon he kept spitting the pellets out. I do not know if it is b/c he wants the pellets softer but i left them in the tank for now to see if he or his mate will eat any. I added prazi yesterday when i could not figure out what he had but now that i believe i know i want to remove the prazi and start a bacterial treatment w/junglelab fungus clear. i hope there is still medication in the medigold even though it has been sitting in the water. i just think he prefers it softer b/c now he appears to be looking for food, however i do not know if he's eating.

karla

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Sorry to take long in getting back to you.

I would start him immediately on the Metromed and feed him as much as he will eat several times a day.

With streaking like that it very well be septicimia. That is so deadly, so getting him as much antibotics is so important.

Do you have a vet that can give you injectable meds? That is the best way to treat it along with the metromeds.

We can guide you thru what you need and how to do it. Just let me know.

Since the other fish is now exposed, keep him eating the metromed for a full 21 days.

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Hi LaurieP, I do not understand, to give him a head start I started him on junglelabs antibacterial food but the problem kept getting worse. So I started him on Medigold yesterday which he ate but by evening meal he kept spitting the pellets out. I think he ate eventually b/c i can see his poop and still the same color as the food, pretty healthy looking. Well despite my efforts in getting antibacterial meds in him, I'm afraid that it has spread really fast. He now has red rings around both his eyes, more redness on his belly, fins are worse, etc. All I really have besides metromed and medigold is junglelabs fungus clear, which at this point I do not know if it will help him. I cannot get a vet to inject him w/antibiotics but i'll make a few calls. If I can't, is there anything else i can do. I know without any pics it's hard to get an idea of how bad it looks but it has really infected him and quick which surprises me since i've been testing the water, doing water changes to keep the tank as clean as possible and got him on antibacterial food before these symptoms started. I'll be doing another water change when i get back home, to clean out the bottom of the tank. Can i add fungus clear or is it too late. I do not want him to suffer :cry1 . If metromed is stronger than medigold, i'll try that then.

thanks

karla

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I wouldn't worry about the fungus meds at this point.

If a vet can't inject, you can. We can teach you, you just need a vet to sell you the Baytril antibotic in syringes. I will tell you now what you need incase you find a vet that will do this.

Baytril injectable is the medication you need. The dose as follows you will need drawn up in a 1cc syringe with a 25 gauge needle on it. (individual doses).

For a fish that is 2 inches........0.05cc/mls

A fish 3 inches.....0.1cc/mls

A fish 6 inches......0.2-0.3cc/mls

A fish 12-14 inches.......0.5cc/mls

This is given in either the muscle along the back, next to the spine or where I like to use it, in the abdomen region right next to the ventral fin and the underside of the fish.

It is called "intraperitoneal" injection. You can google it I am sure and come up with a picture.

The fish gets one injection per day for 3-4 days, then you can give go every other day for 3 more injections.

This med is hard hitting and it usually the last line of defense in septicimia and it sometimes doesn't work. Other than this what you are doing is about all you can do. Unfortunately, nothing else will help.

Let us know how things are going and good luck.

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LaurieP, thank you for all your help but if I cannot find a vet (I'll try right a way though), then there is nothing else :( . I just do not get how I started a treatment simply b/c I was worried about a bacterial infection after he injured his tail just to have it not work and him get worse. The water was excellent, he had not even developed symptoms and I tried. I then get him on medigold and still, he kept getting worse. Now he's not even eating. I did everything I was suppose to do. I'm just so angry and sad for him :cry1 .

Well I'm off to find a vet near where live to see what he/she can do.

Karla

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Karla, I know it can be so upsetting, but often septicimia creeps up and attacks without us knowing until symptoms are so severe, it usually causes death. My Squirt was a victim a couple years ago, it can take you by suprise.

Try and force feed him if you can, he needs the nutrition not to mention the meds in the food. But I will be honest, not eating is a bad sign. :hug

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Hi LaurieP, well soon after i saw your post i checked on Casper and he got a lot worse real fast. He could barely move, started acting like he was choking, it was weird. As for his little buddy, who was named Henry, he too got worse, breathing rapidly, tilted to one side, etc. It seemed like no matter what i tried they kept getting worse. Checked the water again, everything was where it should be, nitrates less than 20, ammonia, nitrite both 0, ph 7.2. Anyway, after much thought and watching Casper and Henry really go down fast I decided to let them go :( . I did so w/clove oil then buried them near Butterball :cry1 . Thanks for all your help. I think for now, I'm not going to be getting another goldie or any other fish. I know i made the right decision, especially seeing Casper not even react when i put the net close to him, it was like he was too weak :cry1 . It still hurts. So, i appreciate this site and all the members who've helped but i think for now I just can't have another fish, they are just too sweet and i get too attached. :heart

thanks

karla

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Guest superjanel

Karla,

I'm so sorry for your loss. :( Isn't it amazing how these little guys just swim right into our hearts? When my fishies are sick it's all I can think about - I can't stand it. I hope you reconsider your "no gf" decision; it sounds like you're a wonderful fish mom.

~Janelle

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Awww, Karla. I'm sorry you had to do that. It's never an easy descision to have an animal put down. :( However, you provided a wonderful life for your goldies in the years that you had them. Compared to most goldfish out there, yours were living in the lap of luxury...... :)

This was most likely a classic case of "new fish brings in a new pathogen". Regardless, none of this is your fault. Please don't let this bad experience deter you from enjoying keeping goldfish. As I have very often said, this can happen to the very best fish keepers in the world. There are no exceptions. Even if we take every measure available to make sure it doesn't happen. Lots of fish shops treat their fishtanks only when

What you just went through is actually quite rare. The pathogen that was ultimately responsible for this didn't give us very many clues as to its identification but I very strongly suspect that it was parasitic in nature. Super-aggressive bacterias that spread and proliferate on their own (without help from poor conditions or parasites) are not very common in aquaculture. Your goldies were most likely infected with one or more of these: Chilodonella, Costia or Tetrahymena. Costia is the most dangerous of the three as it can multiply VERY rapidly. After re-reading through your entire topic again, I started to suspect Costia. Your observation of the red patches forming on his tummy was a major clue. Costia, as well as most parasites, is well known to be a major vector for bacteria to get their "foot in the door" to infect fish. So, in short, I think that costia (possibly) was brought in with the new fish before there were enough of them to cause much harm to the new guy. Once the new guy made it into your tank, the costia that came with him probably found that there were no natural predators to keep their population from exploding. All of this takes place on a microscopic level and so there was no way you could have known the correct course of action.

If you haven't already done so, try to leave your tank running as you normally would. Maintain optimal conditions by feeding the tank a little fish food every other day. Or better yet, you can use pure ammonia to add to the tank for a source of food to keep your beneficial bacteria thriving. Keep it running for a few weeks. Within that amount of time, any true parasite will have died out from the lack of a host to attach to. If you like, you can also raise the salinity in the tank up to 1% for the duration to be well and sure that the parasite is indeed eradicated. Once you feel that you are ready for another goldfish perform a 75% waterchange with fresh, unsalted, water. This will reduce your salinity to 0.25% witch is just about the recommended salinity for a new goldfish to ride out the quarantine/observational period. I will personally see you through all of this if you like. I fully believe that with your compassion and willingness to learn coupled with my knowledge and understanding, we can get you back on track with a tank full of happy healthy little wigglers just begging for some snacks..... :k055:

Give your self some time to put these sad feelings on a shelf somewhere in your heart. In time, I think you'll find that you will be able to find it in yourself to take another chance at raising goldies. Just don't let this experience scar your enthusiasm for keeping fish. It would be a shame for this world to lose a goldie lover, such as yourself. We desperately need more people like you to help perpetuate the truths (and debunking the myths) about keeping goldies happy and healthy.

I'm rambling on here a bit too much but I mean every word of it. :)

If it isn't too painful for you, could you post some pics of your goldies for us to see? Butterball and Casper sounded like they were wonderful little goldies. If not, I understand.

Chin up, Bucko. You're a caring, compassionate fishkeeper. You should be proud that you provided for them as well as you did......... :heart

I'll be here if you need me, for anything.

Paul

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Thank you Janelle and Paul. Losing both Casper and Butterball was/is too hard for me as many of you know how attached you get to these amazing beings. I've had Butterball and Casper the longest, which is why it is so difficult. :(

I did post pics in the obituaries section today. As for new fish, maybe in the future, but for now I need time. I just hate seeing them suffer and feeling so helpless.

And Paul, thanks for your kind words. Despite my feelings today, it will be hard to keep my fish tank empty forever, there are just too many goldies who need a home big enough to thrive in.

Karla

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