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Jack of Hearts

Ryukin Sitting At The Bottom Of The Tank

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Guest beemo

dont use clout, that stuff is crazy strong! its an old product that yes its effective but there much safer meds out there than clout.

prazipro is soooo gentle

yeah 8.99 shipping is alot! i think they have a minimum. i usually buy so much stuff at once and dont notice the shipping too much.

about salt, i do still use it on occasion for certain situations.

like i just used it last week on a black moore that got attacked by a frog and had his eye ripped out (and eaten) pretty gross and sad :(

i put the moore in a hospital tank to recover and he got a dose of salt to help prevent infection (bacteria)

but if your using meds then theres no need for salt, the meds will take care of what they are designed to do without the help of any salt.

i believe flukes and anchor worms are totally immune to salt anyway..im not 100% certain but i remember hearing that somewhere.

salt can help make water more alkaline if you live in a soft water state, but if you live in a state that has allready too hard water, well then salt can even make that worse.

salt has its ups and downs, and i think everyone should have aquarium salt in their fish medicine cabinet, but to keep a goldfish in salted water 24/7 is a no no

Edited by beemo

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dont use clout, that stuff is crazy strong! its an old product that yes its effective but there much safer meds out there than clout.

prazipro is soooo gentle

yeah 8.99 shipping is alot! i think they have a minimum. i usually buy so much stuff at once and dont notice the shipping too much.

about salt, i do still use it on occasion for certain situations.

like i just used it last week on a black moore that got attacked by a frog and had his eye ripped out (and eaten) pretty gross and sad :(

i put the moore in a hospital tank to recover and he got a dose of salt to help prevent infection (bacteria)

but if your using meds then theres no need for salt, the meds will take care of what they are designed to do without the help of any salt.

i believe flukes and anchor worms are totally immune to salt anyway..im not 100% certain but i remember hearing that somewhere.

salt can help make water more alkaline if you live in a soft water state, but if you live in a state that has allready too hard water, well then salt can even make that worse.

salt has its ups and downs, and i think everyone should have aquarium salt in their fish medicine cabinet, but to keep a goldfish in salted water 24/7 is a no no

I'm glad to hear the PraziPro is gentle yet effective. I don't want Jack & Sash to be stressed any more than necessary.

Yes I guess the minimum shipping is like 9 bucks. I oredered some filter cartridges along with the PraziPro to offset the cost. :D

I'm so sorry to hear about your Moor! I hope he recovers quickly.

One thing I don't have to worry is the water becoming too alkaline. My tap water is soooo soft. I use it Buff it Up to maintain a good pH yet the GH and the KH almost never rises.

I guess the super soft water is not so great for Goldfish but great for humans. One of my friends loves to take a shower at my house when she visits because she saids her hair comes out beautifully unlike her home which has well water. :D

Anyway, I will not add any more salt back with future water changes.

Hopefully the PraziPro works. :)

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Guest beemo

LOL @ the soft water showers hehe :D

i know what she means. i used to live in los angeles and the water there was so hard it was terrible. my hair looked like crapola the whole time we lived there. its like ya dont come clean or something, not to mention it gave me terrible dry skin

:D

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LOL @ the soft water showers hehe :D

i know what she means. i used to live in los angeles and the water there was so hard it was terrible. my hair looked like crapola the whole time we lived there. its like ya dont come clean or something, not to mention it gave me terrible dry skin

:D

I've taken showers at her place and I never noticed any difference on my hair whatsoever. It must be a girl thing. :D

Today for the first time in a long time, Jack actually ate more food than Sash. Jack had big appetite and his catching skill was the best ever. I have gotten very good at aiming now and Jack's range and catching skill has increased. One thing that helps Jack is that Sash is very clueless.

Jack seems to be able to get a little air time now on occasion. It however looks like he is doing it by using his muscles not the swimbladder system. He is constantly trying to learn how to swim again. He is an incredible fighter. :)

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Are you sure Jack is a boy?

Have you read this thread yet:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...showtopic=60905

How is Jack doing now?

I always assumed that he was a boy... :blink:

I have had three goldfishes in my adult life. One was a stunning looking Ryukin(Rita) that died a couple of years ago. I don't know if it was a he or she but Jack used to chase her all over the place, poking his nose into the anal region. It was never in a violent way, just more of a minor annoyance to Rita. Jack never chased Sash. Then for a while, after Rita died, Jack started to do the same thing with Sash. He did it for a while and then stopped....maybe he figured out Sash was a boy? :D

Either way, females don't do that do they?

I have not gotten the PraziPro yet but Jack is definitely doing a little better. If he flips over to his side, he can right himself back up. He can on an occasion, eat off the gravel. He is constantly practicing getting off the gravel. He can get several inches of "air time" now on occasion. It is amazing how he is always striving to get back to normal. I don't think Sash would have that kind of fight, if it happened to him.

Also it might be my imagination but Jack's belly bottom, which was as flat as the bottom of an iron, seems slightly less flat now.

Jack's area surrounding his anal opening is still swollen and protruding however...

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The Prazi Pro came in the mail today! :bounce

I did a 65% water change, took the carbon out of the filter and put the required amount of Prazi Pro into the filter box. I hope this works. Beemo how long does it take for the stuff to take effect?

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[

But the title of the book is:

FANCY GOLDFISH, A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CARE AND COLLECTING

Written by Dr. Erik L Johnson, DVM and Richard E Hess

It's the best! I think it's required reading by any fancy goldfish owner, and should be on your bookshelf. Even my dh picks it up every once in a while to read. It has wonderful photographs too! Everything you need to know about diseaeses and how to treat too. I love it.

You can find it at Amazon, as well as the goldfishconnection.com Not sure if it's cheaper one place or the other, but I got mine used at Amazon, and it was delivered quickly, and looks brand new!

I got the book yesterday in the mail from Amazon and it's great! I can't believe the amount of info it packs. I flipped through the pages and some of the stuff is very intriguing, like the chapter on goldfish surgery. The chapter on the Japanese Goldfish Culture looks very intersting. It looks like a very interesting read as well as a great reference material in the future when I need it. A great recommendation by Lolafish! :exactly

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Guest Halloween

Hello Jack of Hearts, this is totally unrelated to your sick goldfish but I couldn't help but noice in the pictures you posted that your Oranda seems to have bubbles under his eyes, maybe it's just the camera angle but I have an Oranda with something that causes blister like pockets to pop out from behind his eyes when he moves that look exactly like yours. If your fish does have that, how long would you guess?

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Hello Jack of Hearts, this is totally unrelated to your sick goldfish but I couldn't help but noice in the pictures you posted that your Oranda seems to have bubbles under his eyes, maybe it's just the camera angle but I have an Oranda with something that causes blister like pockets to pop out from behind his eyes when he moves that look exactly like yours. If your fish does have that, how long would you guess?

I am going to guess about 10 months or so. He only has it under his left eye. It's always there and does not really change with his movement. Do you know what it is? It doesn't seem to bother him at all.

Here is a photo of Sash back in January.

He has the bubble under his left eye...

2005_08282007_0101016.jpg

...but not under his right eye...

2005_08282007_0101011.jpg

He had incredible growth spurt in the last year and that's when he got the bubble. I hope it's nothing bad.

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One thing that concerns me is the bulge around Jack's anal opening. I mentioned this earlier in the thread but nobody really commented on it. He has a big bulge around the opening. It almost looks like a donut attached to his anal opening. Anyone know what that is?

Jack is still bottom sitting but seems to have gotten slightly better.

Edited by Jack of Hearts

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Hi Jack. I was glad to read that Jack is still fighting..and that you have the prazi pro. It is really good stuff if this is parasites that are knocking him down. The swelling in the anal area- is it red? If so it could be infected. It can happen when parasites or bacteria are inside the fish. Hopefully a round of prazi which contains the vets antibiotic praziquintel will rid him of whatever it is inside and some of these external symptoms. Fingers crossed for you and Jack of :hearts :)

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Hi Jack. I was glad to read that Jack is still fighting..and that you have the prazi pro. It is really good stuff if this is parasites that are knocking him down. The swelling in the anal area- is it red? If so it could be infected. It can happen when parasites or bacteria are inside the fish. Hopefully a round of prazi which contains the vets antibiotic praziquintel will rid him of whatever it is inside and some of these external symptoms. Fingers crossed for you and Jack of :hearts :)

Thank you Trinket. It's good to hear from you.

I did the three rounds of prazi pro but it really didn't seem to make any difference.

No the swollen area is not red. It is the exact same color as the rest of his body. It is almost as the donut was inserted inside.

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Jack- I re-read your whole thread and have a summary for anyone else joining.

Jack is bottom sitting and finds it very hard to get up and around. He has been like this for 3 months now.His dorsal and caudal fins are drooping and sad looking. He has a slight eye swelling and an anal area swelling. He has trouble eating but will still eat some.

Occasionally he will dartrto the surface for air.

You have tried....salt (at .1% and .3%)

anti-bac bath x2

prazi pro x 3

and you have fed medi gold for 30 days.

Is this correct? Anything I have missed?

I am focusing on Jack here not Sash for the moment...

I have to say I think you have done everything to eliminate all possible causes. For example, the .3% would have killed many parasites, the prazi would have killed the parasites the salt did not cover..and the antibac bath would probably cover for both gram neg and gram pos bacteria-you can check the packet should say.

Presuming you are doing regular gravel vacs (?)filter rinsing and water changes it seems you should have be covered for disease.

I strongly suggest you do not add any more meds now.

I want to run 2 things past you.

Jack's friend Sash has not developed any similar symptoms. These facts put together make me think a severe case of swim bladder is the most likely thing going on here. Unless you are dealing with a female and then egg impaction is still a possibility. You say Jack chased a female fish in breeding manner- have you checked the anal vent...if it is protruding a little =female. Much smaller and flatter=male.There are some pictures pinned by koko I believe in the breeding forum. Even though you saw him chasing it is still a slight possibilty. Egg impaction can last a long time and can make a fish lose their appetite and gulp at the surface as their insides are packed full of eggs that will not come out.

For swim bladder -you have a few choices. An operation is possible (but only a specialised fish vet could do it) that has had some success.

Or you can try focusing on food. Peas for 2 days followed by fasting for a day and then pellets on the 4th. This can help. Increase the veg content of the diet to clear his intestines but keep a close watch on the poop consistency. Take a sample of poop out to check in a cup whenever you see a poop that you know is from Jack. If it disintegrates and turns the water brownish when you stir the water in the cup- then you are overdoing the veg. The poop should be firmish.

Some people lower the water surface for swimbladder affected fish.

I have an sbd fish who has had bursts of miraculous recovery only to flipover again. I have lifted him with my hand and moved him around the tank on occasions. I have cleared the gravel in spots so he has a nesting place that does not cut or injure.It is a very tricky one but not without hope.

Can you give us an update on any other outer symptoms to date for both fish (Sashs injury for example)

I hope something I have said rings true or is of help Jack. Your Jack of Hearts is a beautiful fish. I love the pics and Sash is such a loyal companion. I hope so much we can work this out.

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Jack- I re-read your whole thread and have a summary for anyone else joining.

Jack is bottom sitting and finds it very hard to get up and around. He has been like this for 3 months now.His dorsal and caudal fins are drooping and sad looking. He has a slight eye swelling and an anal area swelling. He has trouble eating but will still eat some.

Occasionally he will dartrto the surface for air.

You have tried....salt (at .1% and .3%)

anti-bac bath x2

prazi pro x 3

and you have fed medi gold for 30 days.

Is this correct? Anything I have missed?

I am focusing on Jack here not Sash for the moment...

Yes you pretty much have everything correctly summarized except for a couple of things. Jack does not have eye swelling and his fins are pretty much normal. Other than the flattened belly, swollen anal region, and the bottom sitting, he looks very healthy.

I have to say I think you have done everything to eliminate all possible causes. For example, the .3% would have killed many parasites, the prazi would have killed the parasites the salt did not cover..and the antibac bath would probably cover for both gram neg and gram pos bacteria-you can check the packet should say.

Presuming you are doing regular gravel vacs (?)filter rinsing and water changes it seems you should have be covered for disease.

I strongly suggest you do not add any more meds now.

Yes I am doing regular gravel vacs along with filter rinses and changes. I will not add any more meds for now.

I want to run 2 things past you.

Jack's friend Sash has not developed any similar symptoms. These facts put together make me think a severe case of swim bladder is the most likely thing going on here. Unless you are dealing with a female and then egg impaction is still a possibility. You say Jack chased a female fish in breeding manner- have you checked the anal vent...if it is protruding a little =female. Much smaller and flatter=male.There are some pictures pinned by koko I believe in the breeding forum. Even though you saw him chasing it is still a slight possibilty. Egg impaction can last a long time and can make a fish lose their appetite and gulp at the surface as their insides are packed full of eggs that will not come out.

For swim bladder -you have a few choices. An operation is possible (but only a specialised fish vet could do it) that has had some success.

Or you can try focusing on food. Peas for 2 days followed by fasting for a day and then pellets on the 4th. This can help. Increase the veg content of the diet to clear his intestines but keep a close watch on the poop consistency. Take a sample of poop out to check in a cup whenever you see a poop that you know is from Jack. If it disintegrates and turns the water brownish when you stir the water in the cup- then you are overdoing the veg. The poop should be firmish.

Some people lower the water surface for swimbladder affected fish.

I have an sbd fish who has had bursts of miraculous recovery only to flipover again. I have lifted him with my hand and moved him around the tank on occasions. I have cleared the gravel in spots so he has a nesting place that does not cut or injure.It is a very tricky one but not without hope.

Is it possible that Jack is a girl? If so, could the donut shaped swelling at the anal opening be eggs? It has been like that for a long time now.

Can you give us an update on any other outer symptoms to date for both fish (Sashs injury for example)

Sash has had some growth that is covering a couple of scales that look like raw flesh(but it's not). This has been a concern for a while and it seems to have gotten a little bigger. It does not seem to bother him at all. Sash looks and acts very healthy otherwise. He is constantly doing his acrobats. Sometimes he knocks Jack over by mistake because he can't get out of the way quick enought.

I hope something I have said rings true or is of help Jack. Your Jack of Hearts is a beautiful fish. I love the pics and Sash is such a loyal companion. I hope so much we can work this out.

Thank you so much for all your help and concern, Trinket. You are so sweet! I am lucky to have a cyber friend like you. :)

Edited by Jack of Hearts

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Thank you :heart I really wish we could help you more specifically here. You are clearly a very caring and compassionate owner and are doing your level best. I don't think Jack has given up or is getting worse.

I'll just throw one more thing in to consider. If Jack was female and egg impacted the fish would show signs of rapid breathing after this length of time and may also lean to the side- I don't think these symptoms have been seen? Fasting can help the reabsorption of the eggs because the fish will start to absorb them instead of food. One reason this seems not a perfect answer however is that Jack didn't eat for some time and showed no improvement at that point. So maybe the swelling may just be an effect of the bottom sitting and loosening of the peritonium.

Anyway, hang in there you and Jack both and keep us updated :)

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Have you called all of your LFS's to ask around about what vets are knowledgeable in fish? Have you called every pet store in your phone book, and googled, for example: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=s...ticut+aquariums

You won't find any vets advertising that they treat fish. You have to call the stores that sell fish, preferably the ones that specialize in tropical fish, as they will be more knowledgable. What I did, was ask the store's clerks who they call when they have a sick fish that they can't get better.

The way to find a vet on your own, might be to stick with the vets that take emergencies only. If they treat birds, they are likely to help with your fish too, since their bodies are about the same mass.

I know we've asked you in the past about finding a vet, and you said you didn't know any, so after a few months I'm wondering if you're willing to revisit that. You have literally tried everything, other than injectionable antibiotics, and should probably give Jack a rest now (as suggested above), to be sure he is not being overtreated. I have been leaning towards Jack having a swim bladder problem over anything bacterial, as I don't think you have complained about Jack's poop looking out of the ordinary, which is usually the first sign of an infection. But of course I am no expert - just going on gut feeling.

It might be time to get some help from a professional pet doctor - which you might be able to find if you can track down a Koi or Goldfish club in your extended area as well. Network, network, network! :yeah: I really want to see your Jack get better as much as you do.

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Lolafish I'm a little hesitant to take Jack to a vet because I don't know if he will get too stressed out. Jack really have not gotten any worse and as a matter of fact, I think he has gotten a tiny bit better. Other than the flattened belly and the swollen anal region, he looks very healthy. He even looks like he grew a little bit.

I am actually now more concerned with the fleshy looking growth on a couple of Sash's scales. It don't think it has gotten any bigger and I have no idea what it is. I do know that it doesn't seem to bother him as he is constanly playing and doing acrobats all day long. He has gotten so big and strong that I don't even bother burying the airstones in the gravel as Sash rips them out within minutes.

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I hear ya with the bubble wands and walls. I can't bury mine either. They just swish all the gravel away anyway.

I know you are worried that Jack wouldn't like a car ride, but I also know that some fish who get SBD will never recover without surgery, and I'm just wondering if you're willing to accept that, should that be the case.

What do you think is going on with Sash?

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I know you are worried that Jack wouldn't like a car ride, but I also know that some fish who get SBD will never recover without surgery, and I'm just wondering if you're willing to accept that, should that be the case.

It's not the car ride but more the surgery. I saw photos of it in "our" book and I would think it would be quite stressful for a fish.... :unsure:

What do you think is going on with Sash?

I wish I knew. He is as healthy as a fish could be but the "growth" is a concern. It doesn't photograph well at all or I would post it. It looks like exposed flesh but I think it is on top of the scales and it is about 2 or 3 scales big.

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Well honestly, I don't think I'd want to put my fish through the sbd op either. I mean it seems to be more suitable for fish that are floaters anyway. Quartz stones inside sounds painful :( and stressful. And if they put too many inside the fish might sink! Maybe there is another way...I hope so.

Btw I'm wondering if the raised scales on Sash are a viral dermatitis that can come and go on fish. What color is the area?

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Btw I'm wondering if the raised scales on Sash are a viral dermatitis that can come and go on fish. What color is the area?

What is a viral dermatitis?

The area is orange. A little lighter than the orange of his scales.

The area never photographs well and is actually much harder to see when the aquarium light is on. Here is a photo of it that I took while he was sleeping. It is the upsidedown triangle area under the dorsal fin. It looks like he is missing the scales and it is exposed flesh but it isn't. It is growing over the scales and is above the surface of his scales.

2005_08282007_0626003.jpg

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