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Ryukin Sitting At The Bottom Of The Tank


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i didnt read through all the post so my appologies if what i post has allready been mentioned.

bottom sitting is usually a sign of flukes or intestinal worms.

did you treat him with prazipro?

too much salt can also lead to bottom sitting

my guess is its flukes, ive been through it so many times before. first they bottom sit then they get these sores which is a secondary infection to the fluke infestation

either way no matter what it is, he should be taken out of that tank and placed in a bare bottom QT tank where he can get the proper treatment

What do flukes look like?

I treated with Medigold and one cycle of Antibac-bath from Goldfishconnection. Do they work on flukes or intestinal worms?

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I not sure that flukes are visible without a microscope.

MediGold and Anti-bac are both bactericides and don't touch flukes or worms; those are parasites and are treated with Prazi.

Are you still treating with MediGold? Usually, if the anti-bac doesn't work (that knocks out bacteria) a parisiticide is the last port of call.

The order of elimination should be - constipation, bacteria, parasites.

I agree about the dangers of leaving him on the gravel - I think I mentioned this a while back? A listing, sinking fish is at a great disadvantage at the bottom of the tank where it is under pressure and is in constant contact with rough gravel. Definitely get him off the bottom. How deep is the tank by the way?

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Guest beemo

yeah you cant see flukes with the naked eye.

get him out of that tank

set up a 10g or at least a 5g QT tank with a filter, BARE bottom no gravel or anything

use 50% of his tanks water to the QT, use dechlorinated new tap water to make up for the other 50%.

make sure his tank and the new QT tank have the same temp water, use a heater if you use one in the main tank to get the same temp.

DONT salt at this time

buy either PraziPro OR LIfe Bearer, dont use both at the same time

follow the directions

do 25% water changes after every 24 hours

in my personal experience, medi foods do nothing. they mess up their stomaches if anything

you need stronger meds to kill parasites/worms

i think your baby is infested with flukes and intestinal worms.

he should be isolated and treated for at least a month.

your main tank will also need treatment and a good gravel wash, water changes and run all filter material in hot water or replace it. flukes can and usually are in the filter material, alive and well.

heres a link that sells both prazipro and Life bearer. they ship out fast and are reasonable

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199101/product.web

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"in my personal experience, medi foods do nothing. they mess up their stomaches if anything

you need stronger meds to kill parasites/worms"

I think there are two separate issues here: Medi foods do do something if there is any bacterial infection, which sometimes there is with an SB problem. MediGold is a bactericide.

But if the problem is parasites, it's not a question of a stronger med but a different type of med ie. a parasiticide.

I do think Beemo may be right: you have mentioned the swollen port plus a loss of body mass and as the MediGold hasn't made much difference a parasite prob is definitely something to consider.

I wonder where Toothy has got to? I'd like to know his opinion, too.

Edited by Pixiefish
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I agree about the dangers of leaving him on the gravel - I think I mentioned this a while back? A listing, sinking fish is at a great disadvantage at the bottom of the tank where it is under pressure and is in constant contact with rough gravel. Definitely get him off the bottom. How deep is the tank by the way?

He moves around a lot now. When he moves, he is slightly off the gravel and it does not seem to be scraping his belly on it.

The tank is about 15" from top to bottom.

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yeah you cant see flukes with the naked eye.

get him out of that tank

set up a 10g or at least a 5g QT tank with a filter, BARE bottom no gravel or anything

use 50% of his tanks water to the QT, use dechlorinated new tap water to make up for the other 50%.

make sure his tank and the new QT tank have the same temp water, use a heater if you use one in the main tank to get the same temp.

DONT salt at this time

buy either PraziPro OR LIfe Bearer, dont use both at the same time

follow the directions

do 25% water changes after every 24 hours

in my personal experience, medi foods do nothing. they mess up their stomaches if anything

you need stronger meds to kill parasites/worms

i think your baby is infested with flukes and intestinal worms.

he should be isolated and treated for at least a month.

your main tank will also need treatment and a good gravel wash, water changes and run all filter material in hot water or replace it. flukes can and usually are in the filter material, alive and well.

heres a link that sells both prazipro and Life bearer. they ship out fast and are reasonable

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199101/product.web

Beemo I understand what you are saying about taking him out of the tank but I really don't want to. Sash(the other fish) does not bother him and once I took Jack out to feed him in a mixing bowl and he absolutely freaked out, so I had to put him back in the tank.

Can I treat him with Prazi in the main tank with the healthy fish?

Will it harm the healthy fish? Actually wouldn't the healthy fish benefit from the treatment since he is in the same tank?

I actually just put in a brand new filter as the old one broke.

I have Clout. Is that stuff any good?

What about the intestional worms? What do I use for that?

Thank you so much! :)

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I think there are two separate issues here: Medi foods do do something if there is any bacterial infection

Yes I agree. I know Metro-med food definitely works as it saved my Oranda Sash's life when he developed dropsy. He recovered 100% and is very healthy. :)

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[

What book are you talking about from the Goldfish Connection?

My 'puter is acting up right now...and I can't open a new window. Strange......

But the title of the book is:

FANCY GOLDFISH, A COMPLETE GUIDE TO CARE AND COLLECTING

Written by Dr. Erik L Johnson, DVM and Richard E Hess

It's the best! I think it's required reading by any fancy goldfish owner, and should be on your bookshelf. Even my dh picks it up every once in a while to read. It has wonderful photographs too! Everything you need to know about diseaeses and how to treat too. I love it.

You can find it at Amazon, as well as the goldfishconnection.com Not sure if it's cheaper one place or the other, but I got mine used at Amazon, and it was delivered quickly, and looks brand new!

Have you tried looking for a fish vet to help you? This is a long time to be having to take care of a sick fish. I'm sure you want Jack better sooner than later.

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"Can I treat him with Prazi in the main tank with the healthy fish?

Will it harm the healthy fish? Actually wouldn't the healthy fish benefit from the treatment since he is in the same tank?"

Prazi is safe to use in your main tank, so if there is a parasite prob you will be treating the whole set-up in one go. If you check out the quarantine thread pinned in D&D you will see that Toothy recommends it as a matter of course with new fish.

Just so you know, I think PraziQuantel is the stronger med - PraziPro has a lower concentration.

Just keep an eye on his belly for now as you are confident he seems not to be rubbing too much.

If not, those little plastic floating breeders are really cheap and you can always put him in one for a while just to give him a break.

What a good bunch of links, Lola - you are always so helpful.

Good luck with him.

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Guest beemo

yeah you cant see flukes with the naked eye.

get him out of that tank

set up a 10g or at least a 5g QT tank with a filter, BARE bottom no gravel or anything

use 50% of his tanks water to the QT, use dechlorinated new tap water to make up for the other 50%.

make sure his tank and the new QT tank have the same temp water, use a heater if you use one in the main tank to get the same temp.

DONT salt at this time

buy either PraziPro OR LIfe Bearer, dont use both at the same time

follow the directions

do 25% water changes after every 24 hours

in my personal experience, medi foods do nothing. they mess up their stomaches if anything

you need stronger meds to kill parasites/worms

i think your baby is infested with flukes and intestinal worms.

he should be isolated and treated for at least a month.

your main tank will also need treatment and a good gravel wash, water changes and run all filter material in hot water or replace it. flukes can and usually are in the filter material, alive and well.

heres a link that sells both prazipro and Life bearer. they ship out fast and are reasonable

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199101/product.web

Beemo I understand what you are saying about taking him out of the tank but I really don't want to. Sash(the other fish) does not bother him and once I took Jack out to feed him in a mixing bowl and he absolutely freaked out, so I had to put him back in the tank.

Can I treat him with Prazi in the main tank with the healthy fish?

Will it harm the healthy fish? Actually wouldn't the healthy fish benefit from the treatment since he is in the same tank?

I actually just put in a brand new filter as the old one broke.

I have Clout. Is that stuff any good?

What about the intestional worms? What do I use for that?

Thank you so much! :)

yes you can treat the whole tank and should anyway since if it is flukes your whole tank is infected.

the reason i mentioned to put him seperate was so he gets off the gravel and also would get fresh clean water

they just recover better in hospital tanks i feel, but if you feel he gets nervous then that will stress him more and hes best left untouched.

yes treat the whole tank, over the course of a month. once a week should be efficient

do a water change before treatment and again before any new treatment

dont use salt, salt will cause an over production of the slime coating which will protect the flukes making them safe from medications.

prazipro also treats intestinal worms, it is a dewormer. flukes are a type of worm

prazi is whats used on puppies and kittens to deworm them. prazipro is now available in liquid form to be used in aquariums...for the fish world this was a medical break through :D

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One more place:

http://www.amazon.com/Fancy-Goldfish-Compl...g/dp/0834804484

Not trying to preach, I guess I am just a little enthusiastic over this book, and wish there were more like them. I don't think there are any books at all on the market that even come close to this one.

Thanks for the link Lola. That's a very good price. I think I will get the book. :)

EDIT: I just ordered it from Amazon. :D

Edited by Jack of Hearts
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Beemo & Pixiefish thank you for your expertise. I will get the Prazi to treat the whole tank.

Should I get the Prazi Pro or the Prazi Quantel? Is there a brand that is better/safer than others? Goldfishconnection? Or are they all the same so just go to the LFS?

Thank you so much! :)

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Guest beemo

Beemo & Pixiefish thank you for your expertise. I will get the Prazi to treat the whole tank.

Should I get the Prazi Pro or the Prazi Quantel? Is there a brand that is better/safer than others? Goldfishconnection? Or are they all the same so just go to the LFS?

Thank you so much! :)

get prazipro by hikari

heres two places that sell it

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

and here...

http://thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199101/product.web

if you only need an ounce, thatpetplace.com sells the small ounce jar. it cost about 3.99 i think

on their website just type in prazipro in their search box at the upper right hand corner

its kinda hard to find in most petshops, you may have better luck going to a pond store.

it also comes in a powder form but i would skip that entirely, its supposed to be a pain in the butt to use :)

the liquid is easy as pie

Edited by beemo
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get prazipro by hikari

heres two places that sell it

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

and here...

http://thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199101/product.web

if you only need an ounce, thatpetplace.com sells the small ounce jar. it cost about 3.99 i think

on their website just type in prazipro in their search box at the upper right hand corner

its kinda hard to find in most petshops, you may have better luck going to a pond store.

it also comes in a powder form but i would skip that entirely, its supposed to be a pain in the butt to use :)

the liquid is easy as pie

Beemo, my tank is a 20 gallon with 2 fishs. How many ounce PraziPro should I get?

Thanks! :)

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Always remove carbon when running meds as it will absorbe them. In fact there isn't really a reason to keep carbon in the filter under normal circumstances - it is best to use it to strip meds out of the tank after treatment.

Just one thing I wanted to question in what Beemoo said earlier:

"before any new treatment dont use salt, salt will cause an over production of the slime coating which will protect the flukes making them safe from medications."

My understanding is that salt is often used precisely because it strips the slimecoat away, making medications more effective.

Were you meaning that this triggers an overproduction as a reaction, Beemo? Just wanted to clarify as I didn't quite understand what you were meaning.

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salt irritates the fish, in return the fish builds up more slime coating to protect itself, yes it is a reaction

salt is only good as a dip to get parasites to drop off, even still not every single parasite will drop.

salt is over used now in aquariums, even ponds, with goldfish and koi.

it has been preached for several years that its actually good for them, now many hobbyist are realizing that salt has no place in our goldies and koi's lives...other than a quick dip

if you feel you must use salt, then by all means go ahead :)

too much salt for too long can also lead to BOTTOM sitting!

as for the carbon, yes remove it. however carbon only has a life span of 2 weeks, so if its more than 2 weeks old it lost its effectiveness.

carbon is a good thing. i wont run any of my tanks without carbon, including my reef tanks

carbons bad side? is that when it gets old (past 2 weeks) it becomes exhausted and actually leaches out all the stuff it just absorbed

i run carbon 2 weeks out of the month

as for your tanks size, a one ounce bottle i believe treats 110 gallons, so an ounce will last you several applications

Edited by beemo
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Thanks guys. I just ordered the 1oz PraziPro from "That Fish Place". Only $3.99 for the medicine but $8.99 for the shipping! :blink::D

Yes I recall my LFS owner telling me that the carbon basically loses effectiveness after a couple of weeks so it's OK to leave it in when medicating, although I will probably slit the top and take it out when I medicate.

I have a pkg. of Clout. It's supposed to work on flukes but it looks like pretty nasty stuff by reading the pkg. It sounds like the PraziPro is much safer? I don't want them to be any more stressed than they have to when I medicate. :)

Very intersting discussion regarding salting guys. Now I'm confused! :D

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Yes, I was very interested by Beemo's post, too.

Other than as a dip, I had also read that salt should only be used as a temporary measure - like QT or short term treatments but not as a permanent addition to the tank.

Well now I'm interested to know if you would avoid it altogether in favour of other treatments for parasites/quarantining?

Maybe this should go into a separate topic? - not wishing to hijack your topic, Jack! :yeah:

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BTW, does anyone else think that Clout is very stressful to the fish? The pkg. says it contains ingredients that are proven carcinogens in California. :blink:

I remember when I bought it a few years ago, the LFS owner saying something like, works great....but really nasty stuff...or something to that effect.

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