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Scales Sticking Out...


Abrya

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Hi guys,

I'm absolutely stumped at the moment, so I'm hoping someone here can help...

For the last 6 months or so, our female goldfish (Fishlips) started resting wierd. She wedges herself next to a log and rests there, vertically. Other times she happily swims around the tank, upside down. Today she was resting upside down!

We did have a bout of Ich only recently, but her swimming/resting behaviour changed at least 4 months previously.

Tonight I noticed her scales are all sticking out :( No other symptoms - eating fine - normal poops etc. I wonder if her scales are sticking out due to temperature stress? We have had some HOT days here in Melbourne - 40 deg C, and our tank temperature climbed to 33 deg C!!!! The temp is now back to 24 deg C and this has happened gradually over the last 4 days or so. Not sure if the wierd behaviour and scales sticking out are related or not, but I'm hoping someone has some advice. Thanks in advance, tank questions are below

xx

Ammonia Level? 0

Nitrite Level? 0

Nitrate level? 20 ppm

Ph Level, (If possible,KH and GH and chloramines)? 7.3

Ph Level out of the Tap? 7.0

Tank size (How many Gals) and How long has it been running? 200L, 3 (?) years

What is the name and size of the filter/s? Internal fluval (120?), external HUGE jebo

How often do you change the water and how much? About once per month or so, 40%

How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 goldfish (~ 3 inch body only), 1 pleco (~ 4 inch), 2 danios

What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aqua Plus, Leaf Zone and Cycle when water changes happen

Any medications added to the tank? No

Add any new fish to the tank? No

What do you feed your fish? Sinking pellets (Hikari) and Zucchini

Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt",

bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No

Any unusual behavior like staying

at the bottom, not eating, ect..? See above -she also rests on the bottom a bit

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Hi Sevare - long time no see :)

Unfortunately this may be a problem because whenever the scales stick out, it usually means there's a problem with the osmotic processes plus there's an increase in fluid production and the most common reasons could be bacterial infection, virus, parasites or a problem with the kidneys leading to dropsy.

It can also be a symptom of poor water and once rectified, the scales may go down but I don't think this applies in your case.

Are there any other symptoms? How does her poop look? Any redness on the body?

How did you treat the ich?

Is there any way you can take a pic of the scales? Do they stick out all over? Are they only slightly raised?

The worry here is if she's been resting on the bottom for 4 months, and she's only just started to pinecone, then there's a possibility she may have a problem with her internal organs, in particular her kidneys.

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Hi Jen :D

How have you been? Congrats of the KGW award! Yes, haven't had time for the internet for a while...I wrote the PhD thesis, I travelled Europe, I've done a lot of things... :blink:

No redness in the body, haven't seen any abnormal poop but I'll look more often from now on.

I treated the Ich with Multi-Cure (after removing all the plants and treating them on their own with Myxazin). Had to do 2 treatments (at half dose 'cos of the Pleco)...~30% water changes before/between/after treatments.

I'm guessing the scales are only slightly raised....(I have never seen a gold fish pine-cone in the flesh before) - the scales are not sticking out at right angles or anything.

And all the other inhabitants are fine, and have been for >6 months (apart from Ich once which I spotted as soon as 1 or 2 spots appeared).

I hope she's ok...

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:( Such a forlorn looking little thing. You can see she is missing a few scales too, which happened to mine too when they were protruding.

My own experiences with dropsy have all had a bacterial cause and had symptoms consistant with that.

When you say that her swimming/resting behavior is erratic is it like she has no control over whether she remains upright or is it more to do with weakness?

When dropsy symptoms are involved I think its best to get in there and medicate right away, preferrably with a medicated food like Metromeds, if your able to get those. Im not sure if your in the US or not. If not perhaps someone who has extra could maybe send you some? A vet is also an option I guess if there is one near you who specialises in fish medicines.

Gill colour in dropsied fish is really important b/c it gives you an indicator as to the extent of the organ damage going on internally, a failing heart will make them pale. The fact her gills are still a good colour is a good sign.

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Hi again,

Fishlips has been missing scales in that spot for > 1 year.

With her swimming - it's not erratic, or weak - she swims at normal speeds etc, but just upside down at times!

To the best of my knowledge we can't get any medicated food here in Australia. The only treatment I have left is Myxazin by Waterlife. I have no idea what's in it, but it says it's for bacterial infections. Should I just give it a go? It says it's safe for plants (we have live plants) and both tropical/cold-water fish and is probably the most expensive medication I've ever purchased!

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Im pretty sure Myxazin is formalin based with formaldehyde, and just from googling it ,acriflavin and malachite green may possibly be ingredients.

Interpet No. 9 (also formalin based) didnt have much of an effect(good or bad) with my fish but ive seen others having some success with it.

Are you able to get any Sera brand products? Online perhaps. Their Baktopur Direct contains an antibiotic and im able to buy it in the UK(though not in shops).

Ive got my fingers crossed for her :heart

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Hey Sev,

Sorry to hear about fishlips. If it's any consolation, I lost my weakest fish in the last week or so due to the hot weather, it was hard on all my fish, and some of them are starting to look a little off colour after all that stress.

If she's been a bit listy over the last 4 months or so, it sounds like she's been off colour for a while, If that stuff you've got has formaldehyde in it, it might be too much for her to handle, you know how noxious that stuff is eh? it can really irritate her gills, so I personally wouldn't use that stuff. If she's got dropsy from a bacterial infection, it'll be an internal infection (also the red patches sounds like a dead give away for an internal bacterial infection), so adding stuff to the water is not gonna get into her to beat the infection; fish don't actually swallow much water when they're eating..

My suggestion is to try soaking her food with antibiotics (tetracycline or maybe doxycyclin if you can get your hands on it) I've found that Hikari floating wheatgerm pellets to be a very good food for absorbing and retaining fluid and it's also very pallateable so the fish snap it up before the antibiotics have a chance to be rinsed out of the pellets. I've saved Black Betty from dropsy twice using doxycyclin and wheatgerm pellets, she's still going fine.

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Given that shes got several symptoms consistant with bacterial infection you should look for antibiotics.

Asides going to a vet, if the legislation is the same there as in the Uk, your not going to be able to buy them.

Apart from the Sera stuff. I really dont know how they manage to get around it but they sell both prazi and antibiotics in their products that are technically speaking illegal.

There are Sera Baktotabs which are medicated food with the antibiotic nifurpirinol and also Baktopur Direct which is a tablet you dissolve in the water. Its actually one of the few antibiotics that has a good absorption rate in water. I know there are a few other members on kokos who have used them successfully. The baktotabs are large (far too large for my fish anyway!) and also very crumbley so it was hard to break off a piece as it just became powder.

I did a search using Google Au. and couldnt seem to find any Sera Stockists. Ebay might be worth a go too.

Its such a pain not having the same meds as the US.

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Hey Sev,

Sorry to hear about fishlips. If it's any consolation, I lost my weakest fish in the last week or so due to the hot weather, it was hard on all my fish, and some of them are starting to look a little off colour after all that stress.

If she's been a bit listy over the last 4 months or so, it sounds like she's been off colour for a while, If that stuff you've got has formaldehyde in it, it might be too much for her to handle, you know how noxious that stuff is eh? it can really irritate her gills, so I personally wouldn't use that stuff. If she's got dropsy from a bacterial infection, it'll be an internal infection (also the red patches sounds like a dead give away for an internal bacterial infection), so adding stuff to the water is not gonna get into her to beat the infection; fish don't actually swallow much water when they're eating..

My suggestion is to try soaking her food with antibiotics (tetracycline or maybe doxycyclin if you can get your hands on it) I've found that Hikari floating wheatgerm pellets to be a very good food for absorbing and retaining fluid and it's also very pallateable so the fish snap it up before the antibiotics have a chance to be rinsed out of the pellets. I've saved Black Betty from dropsy twice using doxycyclin and wheatgerm pellets, she's still going fine.

:exactly

Another thing you could try is making up a medicated gel food using metronidazole and doxycycline - both strong antibiotics... and if you don't have a vet that'll supply them, pm me with your address and i'll send you one of each via Express Post (tomorrow). One metro table is 200mg and the doxycyclin, 150mg and combined, a good dosage would be 200mls of blended food (prior to setting) :)

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Thanks guys - you are all so sweet :heart

I have gentamycin, penicillin and streptomycin at work - has anyone used these for goldfish? Why I didn't think about this before, I don't know!!!

Jen - I'll find out if I can use the above before hassling you with postage etc, but thankyou so much.

And Fishlips is looking worse today :( And it's such bad timing....work is CRAZY

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I have decided to give Fishlips an injection of Chloramphenicol (I had some here at work). Found quite a few websites detailing how much to use for koi and goldfish.

so 50ug/g, IP....will try it when I get home.

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Change of plans - Fishlips got too stressed when I weighed her prior to injection so I decided to just give her some oral medication. Unfortunately we can't medicated food here in Australia. BUT I do work in medical research so was able to nab some Baytril AND Chloramphenicol. On JenW's suggestion I will make up a new batch of food containing both antibiotics. *fingers crossed*

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Just a quick update on Fishlips...

So I have been feeding her food with the antibiotic Baytril in it. Today, she looks better and worse. On one side the scales aren't sticking out so much (not at all in one area!), but the other side looks slightly worse with a few more (small) bloody patches. My plan for the moment is to give her Baytril food in the morning, and Chloramphenicol food in the evening...unless someone has a better suggestion?

Fishlips does appear more perky though and her poops are healthy (short pieces of thick food-coloured poop). She hasn't lost her appetite either (the little fatty :) )

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Well, it's good to hear her appetite is still healthy and her poops are normal! Hmmn, as for the swelling going down on one side and coming up more on the other... :blink: as long as she's still taking treatment hopefully it'll start taking effect and you'll get reduced swelling on both sides! Got my fingers crossed for ya darl' Dont forget to keep us in the loop.

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There's a more relaxed approach to fishkeeping when you know you're able to get your hands on more effective meds. Having to live through illness with only triple sulfa and tetracycline was a punish so I'm glad you're able to get your hands on some excellent treatments :D

Poor little FL - her one side isn't looking too hot but if you've only been feeding her med food for 2 days, then it may still be a couple of days before you notice any real improvement. I'll be hoping she pulls through this and will wait for updates as the days progress :)

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Thanks Jen! Fishlips is so perky now that it's hard to get a good view of how much her scales are sticking out!

I think the "bad" side looks a little better today, but there are some black marks on the base of her tail fin. I wonder if the meds have caused this? I just did a 30% water change last week.

Sev

PS: HAPPY FRIDAY!!

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