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Guest Juliosmom

Black Moor With Bad Fin

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:unsure: MAybe his mouth problem is the actual reason he is as thin as he is then. :hmm

Did you ever try to take a look to see if there was any sort of growth i there,or if it was just indeed a small mouth? Jen actually has a fish with a bit of a mouth problem too,and seems to be coming along okay now. Just wondering about that///

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That's a good point Sharon. I ended up pulling my fry out of the tank and with extremely gentle pressure, opened his mouth by depressing each corner. This told me his mouth could open wide as opposed to it being a deformity. I also got a toothpick and when his mouth was an open slit, I put the toothpick sideways and gently opened it by nudging the bottom lip down. I was keen to see if this would help him open it more.

This could be the reason and it may be worth taking a closer look - even if just to understand why his mouth is so small :)

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Guest Juliosmom

Googly has a very tiny mouth. I have managed a quick peek inside and I don't see anything unusual, not that I know too much about the inside of fish mouths, but it appears to be clear. He can open it, but I have never seen him yawn or open it fully like my Oranda or my second Black Moor who has absolutely no issues finding food or eating. Googly has very little 'suction' power. When he goes along the bottom, he nudges things out of the way instead of doing that gung-ho, massive suction, wiggle goldfish thing they all seem to do. The easiest food for him to eat is a pellet that has been soaked, then squished. I have half the tank clear on the bottom and I drop two squished pellets onto the bare tank floor and he works at them for a couple of hours.

Ammonia has disappeared, nitrites are present so I'm handling with water changes and Prime. Very small amount of nitrates. He's still sitting on the bottom but moves from place to place and works on his food with some gusto. His scales are not raised, but his overall body ratty.

If I can get ahold of him without too much stress, I'll try to get a better idea of what is going on with his mouth. :blink:

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Guest Juliosmom

Fish017.jpg

Fish016.jpg

Fish014.jpg

Again, pics aren't the best. In one you can see his side scales ... that's not the angle, that is actually what his scales look like. In another, you can see a faint line of white along his side, in another you can see a line of white that is on his tail just slightly in from the edge. The line is whitish, but from the line to the end of the tail is shiny. I'm not sure how else to describe it. In all, he is sitting on the bottom.

Oh, in one pic, you can see his poop. It looks fine to me? Same colour as his food (one of his pellets is in a picture as well).

He used to sit in the top corner of his tank but now he sits at the bottom to one side of the filter. :(

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Hi Tammy, how is he doing? Poor thing, he doesn't look that much better. Sorry to say I can't see his stool to comment on it, hopefully Sharon and Jen can.

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:unsure: I don't know,but to me his overall body appearance does seem to look somewhat better than the original pics you showed.His body looks somewhat fuller.His poo also looks to be quite normal in the 2nd pic .

These pics are much darker than the originals though and with Googly being a Moor,and the angle,for me it makess it somewhat hard to see the white marks except in maybe the first pic.

So Tam,where are we exactly with water params?Are those white marks fading out at all?Are his scales still raised as they were before? If so,have they gone down at all?That's one thing I had a hard time seeing with these old eyes of mine. The thing with pine-coning/Dropsy is that it is a symptom.I've had fish pine-cone because the power went out and the tank temps decreased.Poor water quality can cause it,as well as a number of other things. Do you think his actual body has filled in,or does it look more like an overall swelling caused by the pine coning? :unsure: Man,this is when I wished that I lived closer to members.

What are the tank temps reading? Do you have any salt in the tank at all?

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One thing that's very concerning in the pics is it looks like his caudal fins have that fused look - a bit like straight hair that starts out dry until it's dipped in water. Plus, with the white border I can see, it looks as though googly may be in the beginning stages of bacterial fin rot. There's a chance his fins will start to shred and erode and once this happens, in many cases they can disintegrate quickly. This isn't unusual when a bad bacterial infection has taken hold but it does mean that unfortunately he's still ailing :( This kind of infection has been treated successfully using Maracyn One and Two plus medicated food plus perfect water ...

There's another scenario and that's if googly is on the mend, the start of the finrot may have been halted and if so, you'll know things are looking up so I'd just keep an eye on him and if you see the edges of the fins start to look tassled/frayed, then it'll be time to look at medicating again.

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I did notice that Jen,but if you recall,that was one of the things mentioned from the original post,so I am assuming that as time has gone on,the fins have gotten a bit worse because of the problem of maintaining good params. :unsure:

Tammy's gone through a round of the Maracyn II only,because they didn't have the regular Maracyn.The bad thing was that Googly didn't do so well.I don't know if it was the meds itself,the params or both.

I really think that medicated food in this case would have been a great help,as now,besides on trying to keep those Nitrites down,I don't know how many more meds the little guy can try out.And even though he looks better to me,well it's still rather obvious that he's got some continued issues going on,and that he's a tiny little guy to be dealing with all of this.

:(

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In all honesty, I think you're right Sharon - I just went back and reread the beginning of the thread and I just don't think googly can take another course of meds - any meds but on the flip side, if he needs them then herein lies the quandry.

Out of all types of finrot, this IMO is the worst and I worry about this because my butterfly Bells had a bad infection and just when I thought she was on the mend, her fins started to look like googly's and remained that way for 2 weeks.... but not every fish is like Bells which is why I'm hoping googly's finrot has been halted...

And yeah, I agree - medicated food would be his best course of cure at the moment :)

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Guest Juliosmom

Hello,

I wish I could get some better pics!

My params have been the better now than at any other point. I am showing nitrites but do water changes until gone, small amount of nitrates, less than 20 and no Ammonia. My pH is now showing between 7.6/7.8.

Fins ... again, they look better than a few weeks ago but the odd sheen and the white lines make me nervous. The store I have been dealing with didn't seem to know if they actually carry the Medigold food or not :blink: but apparently I can order it. I will call them tonight and ask them how long it will take. The white completely disappeared when I salted the tank to .1 But, then he pineconed on me so we went to the M2. The pineconing has gone down but now the white is returning although much less than previously. Some on his side and then the tail. Yes, Sharon, I'm still salting the tank and my temp is around 75 degrees.

The pineconing is gone. His scales look more gold/brown than black on his actual body, but no pineconing. His fins were that shape when I originally bought him, they are very flowing and come to points as opposed to the somewhat short and blunt fins of my other BM. It's one of the reasons I bought him, because they were quite long and pretty.

Other than that, he is still sitting on the bottom. I'm wondering ... when my original oranda passed away a mere three days after buying him, Googly did the same thing ... sat on the bottom. That is why I got the second Oranda, for company. He perked up immediately. Is it possible that he actually may be feeling better but is 'lonely'? My BM and Oranda are doing super well in the other tank and they are both such massive bullies (shockingly BADLY behaved fish!!!) I hesitate to put one back in to see. Nevermind the associated water issues and / or disease issues I'm dealing with at the moment. :unsure:

My hubby has basically said 'enough' with trying to cure him, but I can sneak the medicated food past him :whistle I dread coming home from work because he keeps threatening to flush poor Googly. :o

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:unsure: That makes it really hard when a loved one just doesn't understand and that it's only "a couple dollar fish", and what's the big deal anyway?

They don't understand just how easy it is to get attatched to these little ones especially when you are trying to save them,so I commend you on that . :heart

Okay,so the fact that the pine-coning has ceased is a great sign.Him pooing normal is a great sign.

Oh and Tam,I can't remember the beginning of the thread offhand,But you can only purchase Medi-God at the Goldfish Connection.It may seem pricey,but I'm telling you it's a must have at times like this.

If your Husband moans,or you feel like you can't do that right now,then the next thing I can offer is the medicated food that Jungle makes.It doesn't have the same strength of meds in it like Medi-Gold,but it's definitely better than non medicated food.

I can only continue to stress that right now,it's more important than ever to keep those params --Ammonia/Nitrites at 0,and Nitrates under 20ppms.

At this point I would advise you to not put Googly with anyone Tam.Besides not knowing exactly what's going on,the params can't be controlled as it is,therefore that could put Googly over the edge and your other fish in jeopardy. :unsure:

TAmmy,When you're water changing,are you replacing the salt being taken out by the changes--if so ,how?

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Guest Juliosmom

Working on the water daily. I'm testing morning and evening and doing big water changes if anything goes out of range.

Salt ... yes, I re-salt each time. I dissolve in tank water and then pour in. I try to avoid pouring it directly on Googly and do it slowly. I do my best guesstimate as to quantity depending on how much of the water I replace and I've never gone over .1 purposely.

Medicated Food ... not terribly impressed insofaras I called a well known fish chain to to see what they carry. Exercise in futility. I was told just to come and 'buy some medicine and throw it in my water' :blink: I fired off a fairly annoyed email to let them know what I think of their level of customer service :tantrum My local store will order it for me, but it will take 2 weeks. So, I'm thinking I'll need to source it online.

Anyhoo, maybe I'll try a little frozen food to see if that perks him up until I can get his medicated food. He does spend quite a bit of time nibbling.

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Hi Tammy,

I only come to this site off and on lately but after reading this thread I just wanted to give you an "atta girl" for all your hard work with Googly! :panana

I found this site after losing a goldfish, and then I adopted four large common/comet goldfish that were all living together in a 10 gallon tank! Takl about overstocked. All I could get for them was a 20 gallon, so they had to live in that for awhile until I was able to get a used 55 gallon (with stand and two filters!) for $100. When I first got the fish I struggled mightily with cycling and had to do a million water changes...I think my daughter thought I had given up on her and had changed my job from "Mom" to "water carrier".

So I hear your pain, as well as that of a family who doesn't understand doing so much for "just some fish". I will tell you though, my fiance is a convert now, he actually called me a few weeks ago when I was out of town to tell me that one of my fish looked a bit off, and he didn't even make fun of me this time when the list about what to do with the fish was longer than the list of what to do for my daughter! :P He doesn't mind that we have three tanks in the living room and even woke me from a dead sleep the other night to tell me the fish were chasing and exhibiting breeding behavior.

The way I got my steal of a tank was to actually post in the "wanted" section of craigslist and explain that I had some fish that REALLY, REALLY needed a bigger home. And voila! I am still looking for a larger tank, as I am still overstocked with four HUGE single tailed gf in a 55 gallon. Maybe that could work for you?

I talk way too much, sorry this is so long. But just wanted to wish you the best and say that you are doing a great job. :goodluck

Also, here is the link to the medicated food they are talking about above http://goldfishconnection.com/shop/details...uctId=8&catId=5 and if you call Rick (the owner) he will usually overnight food to you if you have a sick fish, although not sure how much he charges for that service. His phone number is (814) 866-2412 or you can email him at rick@goldfishconnection.com

Edited by jen626

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Guest Juliosmom

Thanks very much for the words of encouragement! I appreciate them more than you know.

Things seem to have gone downhill overnight. The fungus has spread and Googly's breathing seems quite laboured (breathing with mouth and gills moving together, no interest in his food). I've added my little powerhead/filter to his tank to increase the oxygen, but other than that I'm not sure what to do? Also, when I picked him up, he seemed to be excessively slimey???? I'm going to try to find some info on that now.

My readings this morning:

Ammonia 0

Nitrite .1

Nitrate 10

I did a 75% water change, treated with Prime. Did not put salt back in because I was worried it might hamper his breathing more. Should I resalt? The powerhead moves the water, but the current is hard on Googly as he can't find a place to rest. The setting is very low and I've put my filter on the lowest it can go as well.

I'm going to do another 50% water change in a few minutes as I still see a slight tinge in the nitrite test.

Is there anything else I can do to help him? :cry1

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:( I'm sorry Hun,I know how frustrated you must feel,as I am feeling it myself.Excessive slime coat can be caused for a number of reasons---poor water quality(Usually ammonia,if ph is not a problem and it's stable),over salting a tank,or some sort of protozoan

UNfortunately,most of the frustration here has been focusing on tank params as they have barely been good through this whole treatment.It's very hard to pin point any specifics,until water quality is spot on,and it hasn't been,although you have continuously tried. :heart

i'll be perfectly honest here,I don't know what to tell you.The bad fin rot,the white marks,the excessive slime coat,could be a parsite for all I know,but I can't feel comfortable saying that when I know all along that your params have been out of sorts and an uphill battle for you.I am amazed that Googly is as small as he is,and yet continuously has the strength to fight what ever seems to be going on. The thing is though that he is small-he is in a very weakened state,so I am hesitant to prescribe anything. :unsure:

What is your ph normally,and is it stable? Exactly how much water do you change out each time/how many times a day are you changing this amount,and how much salt are you adding?

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Sharon,

Okay, my pH is usually quite stable. Around 8.0 When I added the M2, my pH went down to about 7.6 but now it has been staying in the 7.8/8.0 I don't have anything in my tank that would change the pH except Googly.

Salting. I very rarely do small water changes as I am always working to get something in line. My 'normal' water change is about 70% give or take a bit. I always condition the water before adding it to the aquarium.

I estimate my salt on the amount of water I have left when I take the water out. If I've taken 70%, then when I add the new water, I add back 7 level tsps of salt because I figure 30% of a 10 gallon tank is 3 tsps of salt. I have terrible math skills (both brothers are math wizards .. go figure). I always vacuum my gravel because Googly is a slooooooowwwwww and very messy eater. Mind you, I'd love to see one of his messes right now!

Water changes. I do at least one minimum 50% per day. As above, most days are 70% If I don't have much time, I don't test, I just do a water change on the assumption that the water is not perfect.

I've just done another 50% water change and will retest in about another half hour or so.

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Hey Tam,Jen and I have been talking this thread with Googly over.As long as this continues to go on,it doesn't look good for Googly,as he's getting weaker by the moment,and even worse-he's gone back to not eating.Because the params have been so bad,as I said earlier,we can not exactly pinpoint what is wrong with Googly.There are just too many symptoms that fall into too many categories here.I think that what we can say safely,is that because Googly isn't eating,this problem has probably gone systemic on him---and that's not a good thing at all.

I know Googly didn't do too well with the Maracyn II treatment,but we can not at this time say it was the meds,the water quality or both.

Unfortunately,I think Googly's getting worse,and I want you to consider using something like Parasite Clear on him.This kills most Parasites if that is one of his problems,and it also contains meds to help with secondary infections.I have no idea on how he'll react,or even if this will help,but I think we are at a stand still here,and that all last ditch efforts should be tried. I definately feel that he needs an antibiotic no matter what,so the decision will be yours here.As for the medicated food,well,truthfully-he's not eating now,so I'd try the water born meds just to do something for him. I hate to say this Tam,but I don't think he'll make it going the way he is now,so at least if the meds are tried,there may be a chance... :heart

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This is a hard one because as Sharon says, it's impossible to determine the underlying cause. So this raises a few questions that I wish we had answers for:

- Is it water quality issues leading to lowered immunity leading to infection?

- Is it parasites leading to secondary bacterial infection while being exacerbated by poor water?

- Is it a persistent infection caused by one or few taxonomic groups of bacteria (ie myxobacter, aeromonas, pseudomonas or even flexibacter) that needs a more intense approach to treatment?

Without knowing the answers, treatment can end up being a process of elimination starting with treatment for the most obvious symptoms. If I have a sick fish, initially I'll treat for mild infection however, if this shows no obvious signs of improvement, I'll adopt a more aggressive approach which could mean medicated food and a further round/change of meds.

This leads me to ask myself - what if googly were mine? What would I do? And basically I would run another course of Maracyn Two - especially if the first round wasn't enough to resolve the problem and/or I would consider a more blanket approach ie. Parasite Clear as it contains antiparisitic and antibacterial meds.

I think at this point the question would be, do you think you could put googly through another treatment? As he's no longer eating, it'll be necessary to rely on in-water meds to resolve this...

PS. Doh! you got in before me Sharon and i'm basically repeating everything you've said (and we talked about) :)

Edited by JenW

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Guest Juliosmom

Okay, I will start the Parasite Clear tonight. I am fairly sure we carry that one at work so can pick it up on my break. Unfortunately, I have no way to get it earlier. I agree with you that at this point, he's not doing well and I would rather make another effort to help.

Is there anything else, other than perfect params, that I can do to make the medicating any easier for him? Can/Should I re-add the salt to his tank?

My params currently:

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates - less than 10

:grouphug Thanks for sticking with us.

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:) The only thing Jen is that you are so much better at wording things than I,and cover all reasons of the whys-which is a good thing. :) I am brain dead from lack of sleep and so therefore rely on you heavily as my Partner for my brain side of things.

This all has gotten very hard for me as I've growwn quite attatched to Googly and really want him to be better. :heart

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Rubbish! There's nothing wrong with your wording and never is :)

Yeah, I hope that a last ditch effort will pull googly through - it's definitely worth a try.

Tam, I would just continue as you are for now and keep the water excellent - until you get the meds. I don't think little googly could handle a salt/PC combo so would go with what may be the most beneficial - the PC.

I'm really hoping your little guy pulls through this - in fact, it'd be wonderful :)

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Guest Juliosmom

Got ahold of Parasite Clear. We didn't carry it so I had to make a mad dash across the city to get some before work. Goog is still with us and I noticed him rubbing up against the side of the aquarium and went AHA! I've just medicated him and we'll see where we stand in the morning. Fingers and toes crossed everyone. Something has to go right in this travesty of a day :(

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I have everything crossed - and am hoping little googly pulls through :heart

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:unsure: Heya Tammy,how are things going with Googly? :heart

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi everyone,

Googly looks terrible this morning. The left tip of his tail is completely shredded, looks like the tassle of a pillow. Lots of white ... on his sides, his dorsal fin, bottom fins. I don't *think* there is more than yesterday, but the shredded tail is an overnight thing. Very laboured breathing with mouth and gills. BUT, still holding on. :heart I'm very worried.

Can someone please clear up the instructions on the Parasite Clear for me? I'm not understanding and I'm exhausted. Some guy decided to drink paint thinner in the store last night and I found him in one of my aisles flat out and comatose. Scared me half to death and I spent half the night trying to calm down. Totally offtopic but just wanted to assure you I'm not an idiot, just not quite up to snuff today.

When do I add more PC to his tank? Do the instructions mean I can add two additional tablets in a 48 hour period? And should I do 25% water changes prior to adding more meds? I'm just a little confused. :yawn

Thanks all. I'll update this afternoon.

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