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Guest Juliosmom

Black Moor With Bad Fin

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:unsure: That was my one worry as we've been dealing with this.We really couldn't focus on any symptoms and treat,until we got that water in a good place.Often ,when you see a fish head down and tail up,it could involve a couple things, bacterial infection/Parasites.

I wanna say that he does look a bit like he's pine-coning in the first pic,but it's really hard to see it. :unsure:

I think the first thing that I'd do,is a big water change,treating and matching it to his tank water. Do you happen to have any Epsom salt?Fish that pine cone do that because their body is retaining fluids.Using aquarium salt will sometimes make that worse,where the Epsom Salt helps to decrease the swelling. After you get most of the salt out through water changes,you can add 1/8th teaspoon of Epsom per 5 gallons.

The next thing that I'd probably do is get a hold of both Maracyn and Maracyn II.Some people prefer to use the Maracyn II for one course,switch out some water and then start the Maracyn treatment. The company itself,says that you can use both Meds together safely,but I think alot has to do with how weak the fish is,so it's really up to you how you decide to treat it.

I personally had better results when I used them together.I only had one incident where I thought the fish wasn't handling both meds too good,and then changed the treatment.It's just something that you have to keep a good eye on with their behavior and such.

I have to tell you that when they get to that "Nose down" place,usually the bacterial infection is severe,and may require a few treatments.I had one Oranda that ended up having damaged organs,and she never did recoop from it. :(

This poor little guy suffered from all the water problems,so I hope that he's strong enough to get through this for you.

Using the Maracyns can be tricky.Although they claim to not affect your Params,some people have found that it does bump their cycle,so you'll have to watch even more. The thing with maracyn too is that in order to get it to its therapeutic level needed to work,it often involves trying to treat the tank for 5 days without changing out the water.This is where something like using Prime as a water conditioner really comes in handy because it will detoxify any toxins that are building up.

So,first thing---get that Nitrite back to 0....Salt with Epsom if possible,and start a Maracyn treatment asap.

do you have a heater in his tank?I have found that slowly getting temps up around 80 seems to help.You just have to be careful as the higher the temps,the more aeration they need in the tank.

Tammy,I'm so sorry that you're having such problems,and I really feel for you.I hope the little guy pulls through for ya. :heart

Are his scales just popping out slightly,or is it very obvious when looking at him?Is he pooing any differently--showing any white poo?

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Sharon,

Just off to work, but I got the nitrites to 0 and I dashed out and picked up Maracyn-Two (they did not carry the Maracyn). I also picked up some Prime. They did not have any medicated food.

I started him on the M2 as per the instructions on the package. I'm going to pick up a heater tonight at work and work on getting the temp up when I get home. The scales are out but not shockingly so .... just. no red anywhere and other than bottom up and corner hiding, he is swimming some and looking for food. Have no epsom salts so will cross my fingers that it doesn't make him worse.

Will give an update tomorrow.

Thanks

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Keep us updated Tam.This little guy's been through the ringer,so hopefully he continues to fight long and hard.Glad to hear the water's spot on as that's so important. Looking for food continues to be a good sign so finger's are still crossed. :)

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Guest Juliosmom

Googly is holding his own today. His tank temp is about 78/79 and he's on day two of Maracyn-Two. Params are pretty good. I tested this afternoon and have the barest tinge for Nitrites. I have the Prime to help me out there. We start peas again tonight; have been feeding very lightly and he's been looking around for food. He's snooping around the bottom for tidbits so I'm hoping that is a good sign. Still nose down and seems to float out of control pretty easily. He's a pretty determined little fish. :heart

Surprisingly, his poop looks okay. Although, compared to my other two, he doesn't poop a whole lot. I really have to watch carefully to catch him at it. My husband is going to commit me shortly :blink:

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:) Well,glad to hear that he's still holding his own. The fact that he's got an appetite and his poo is going to normal looking is also good to hear.These kinds of problems are sometimes tough to rid your fish of,but right now,he's showing all positive behavior improvements. YAY!!! :exactly

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I too am glad to hear he is holding his own.

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Guest Juliosmom

Starting Day 4 of antibiotics.

Googly is NOT a happy wee fishie. He looks absolutely miserable. All of his fungus has disappeared, his fins are healing, if not healed and it looks like the missing scales on his one side are improving. But he's droopy, hiding in the corner/top of tank and just generally looks unhappy.

Params are weird .... I guess it's that 'bump' you mentioned.

My Ammonia is up to 1.2 which according to my little diagram is in the 'critical' zone for a pH of 8.0 :o

My nitrites are just starting to show.

I have added a capful of Prime to the water for the ammonia. Is there anything else I can do? We still have two full days of meds left before I can change his water. :(

Any suggestions??

Thanks

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Tammy you will have to change water now and then just add back the meds you have taken out, plus any that needs to go in now.

This is something you will have to do from here on out, it is a pain and can get a bit expensive but unless you get the water under control you can still lose him.

Remember water quality is everything to the fish, no med can work unless the water is perfect. A balencing act I know, but something that has to be worked out.

After you have the water back in control you should notice a differnce in him. Although it may take him longer to bounce back this time. Each time they go thru a terrible water problem it weakens them and eventually if they go thru it too many times won't recover.

I am still pulling for him, such a cutie.

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:blink: I just wrote a huge response and lost it. :thud

I know I talked about keeping the tank at a "Therapeutic level",but there sometimes comes a time when that is just no "feasible".

If your fish suddenly seems to be going backwords,then the very first thing that I would do,would be a big water change to get those levels reading 0 again.Now Prime really does help,but I think that we may have hit it's peak where "therapeutic level" needs to be put on the back burner. MArdel is the one that talked "Therapeutic level",but if I see my fish doing worse,then I do what I gotta do.

If it were me,I'd do a big water change to get those levels to 0 again,I'd redose the Maracyn so that I could continue to finish it's course.It also wouldn't hurt anything to start feeding the peas as he may need

One thing that we have to realize is the fact that Googly has suffered quite a while with high Nitrites,and at least 2 factors could result from this.

First,there's a chance that he has a more severe infection than we realized--which might mean that he needs more than one course of treatment,or 2) during all these poor param readings,Googly may have suffered some permanent SB injurys.I'm not trying to scare you,but I want you to realize that this very well could be the case. :unsure: I tend to think that this happens alot,and that it sometimes it just doesn't work out the way we want things to. :unsure:

I would also advise to just go ahead and order the Medi-Gold from the gold,because the fastest way to aid a fish and bacteria,is by the fish ingesting the meds as it goes through the blood stream alot quicker than a water born med..

You can find Jungle Antibiotic food in local fish stores,but I swear by the medi-gold.I think Medigfold has much more "punch"

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Guest Juliosmom

:o

OIY VEY!!

I took out about 70%. Have retreated to the best of my math skills :blink: I vacuumed his gravel pretty well and found some leftovers so maybe that was part of the problem. Let's hope so!

He's rocketing around the tank like something possessed. I'm not sure if he's telling me off or saying "ah, that's better!"

Has anyone ever considered medical coverage and a drug plan for fish??? :blink:

My family thinks I'm nuts, you know that, right? :krazy:

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Sharon,

Responded before I saw your post!

Thanks for the warning that Googly might not come back. As I've been struggling with the water issues, I have realized that some, if not all of the damage can't be reversed. I hope he can bounce back but even if he does, I think he'll be a delicate fish. :(

It's a shame to learn all of this stuff at the expense of our pets, isn't it? Excellent lesson in doing one's research prior to taking on the commitment of caring for a life!

Off to retest and see where we are at with the ammonia. Fingers crossed!

******

ARGH! I'm editing here as I've just tested for Ammonia. I did a 70% water change, treated with Prime, re-treated with Maracyn and my Ammonia is HIGHER than it was prior to the water change? :cry1 I tested twice just to make sure I didn't do the original test wrong. My first drop of regent causes a reaction.

Is it possible the meds cause a false reading? My water, out of the tap, is 0 for Ammonia. I barely have ammonia in my little 5.5 gallon that is in the midst of cycling and that one has two 1.5" fancy tail goldies in it.

Nitrites are nil and Nitrates are about 20. I don't get it? If I have nitrates, can I still have high ammonia?

Edited by Juliosmom

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As frustrating as it is, yes you can have ammonia and high nitrates.

It is possible that you let loose a lot of toxins when you vacuumed if you hadn't done so in a while. That may cause the increase as well.

Do another water change to bring it down. Remember high nitrates indicate high ammonia at one point.

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Hi Sharon,

Responded before I saw your post!

Thanks for the warning that Googly might not come back. As I've been struggling with the water issues, I have realized that some, if not all of the damage can't be reversed. I hope he can bounce back but even if he does, I think he'll be a delicate fish. :(

It's a shame to learn all of this stuff at the expense of our pets, isn't it? Excellent lesson in doing one's research prior to taking on the commitment of caring for a life!

Off to retest and see where we are at with the ammonia. Fingers crossed!

******

ARGH! I'm editing here as I've just tested for Ammonia. I did a 70% water change, treated with Prime, re-treated with Maracyn and my Ammonia is HIGHER than it was prior to the water change? :cry1 I tested twice just to make sure I didn't do the original test wrong. My first drop of regent causes a reaction.

Is it possible the meds cause a false reading? My water, out of the tap, is 0 for Ammonia. I barely have ammonia in my little 5.5 gallon that is in the midst of cycling and that one has two 1.5" fancy tail goldies in it.

Nitrites are nil and Nitrates are about 20. I don't get it? If I have nitrates, can I still have high ammonia?

Hi Tam.Yes,I certainly understand how frustrated you must feel,and if it makes you feel any better,we've all gone through it at one time or another,so we do understand your feelings.Don't let it frustrate you though,as every time you come back to this forum,you're trying to improve your pets quality of life,and that's a good thing. :exactly

You can only give him what you can,and that's a better enviroment ,which you're working on. Any sort of new learning experiences like this often come about from a bad thing,and we can only try our best at continuing on trying to improve that. :)

Unfortunately,when you're keeping a small tank overstocked,yes you can have ammonia readings in one poo,for lack of better words. Often times people don't understand why we recommend the bigger tanks, when their fish are so small,but this is one of the reasons, Water Quality.Two fish can pollute a tank with just one feeding.

what's going on today with everyone?Did you get the water back to good readings?How's Googly appear today?

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Guest Juliosmom

I've had a very frustrating couple of days. I finished the Maracyn treatment, or tried my best to with my Ammonia readings way high. Googly did not respond well to his 5 days of M2 and he's come out of it worse than he was prior to treatment. My tank readings are completely out of whack despite numerous water changes over the past few days.

This morning I had:

Ammonia 2.4 / 1.3 on the chart for a pH of 8.0 Either way, critical

Nitrites around .1 perhaps a little higher

Nitrates barely showing.

Following a 60% water change my Ammonia has not changed, my nitrites are 0 and nitrates are not showing either. I tested at least an hour after the water change. I did four 75% water changes yesterday alone and the ammonia level barely moved. Nitrites/Nitrates appear/disappear.

I found Googly perpendicular this morning behind a plant. Quite honestly, I thought he had passed away during the night; however, when I touched him, he began swimming and has been since. When he rests, he once again goes perpendicular. He does not like peas. I've tried to hand feed them without success for the past week. I've been soaking his pellets and hand feeding those. He is and wants to eat.

On the last day of his M2 treatment, his fungus reappeared. His scales are still raised. I considered going for another round of M2 but I don't think he'll survive the tank conditions it produces.

As it stands I am seriously considering euthanizing him. I feel he is suffering and if I can't get his water under control with all of these water changes what else can I do?

I'm going to try one more thing with my next water change and that is using my former water conditioner instead of the Prime which I had been using all through the M2. I'll do an 80% and retest. I'll let you know how that goes.

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Guest Juliosmom

Googly is alone in the 10 gallon tank and has been for quite awhile. My other two are in another small tank on which I do daily 50% water changes. They are both doing very well. Wasn't sure if that was clear.

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Tammy I am sorry he is responding the way he is. It is so tough to fight some of this stuff.

I wish I could offer you more, but sometimes even for all we do it isn't enough.

Googly being smaller and been thru so much, it doesn't take much to throw them over the edge. And water is the one thing that will make or break things.

Hopefully thru more changes you will be able to control it. While meds have there place, they can sometimes do more harm than good.

:hug

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I've had a very frustrating couple of days. I finished the Maracyn treatment, or tried my best to with my Ammonia readings way high. Googly did not respond well to his 5 days of M2 and he's come out of it worse than he was prior to treatment. My tank readings are completely out of whack despite numerous water changes over the past few days.

This morning I had:

Ammonia 2.4 / 1.3 on the chart for a pH of 8.0 Either way, critical

Nitrites around .1 perhaps a little higher

Nitrates barely showing.

Following a 60% water change my Ammonia has not changed, my nitrites are 0 and nitrates are not showing either. I tested at least an hour after the water change. I did four 75% water changes yesterday alone and the ammonia level barely moved. Nitrites/Nitrates appear/disappear.

I found Googly perpendicular this morning behind a plant. Quite honestly, I thought he had passed away during the night; however, when I touched him, he began swimming and has been since. When he rests, he once again goes perpendicular. He does not like peas. I've tried to hand feed them without success for the past week. I've been soaking his pellets and hand feeding those. He is and wants to eat.

On the last day of his M2 treatment, his fungus reappeared. His scales are still raised. I considered going for another round of M2 but I don't think he'll survive the tank conditions it produces.

As it stands I am seriously considering euthanizing him. I feel he is suffering and if I can't get his water under control with all of these water changes what else can I do?

I'm going to try one more thing with my next water change and that is using my former water conditioner instead of the Prime which I had been using all through the M2. I'll do an 80% and retest. I'll let you know how that goes.

I'm sorry to hear this Tammy,although I am a bit confused.First all,I can understand why you may suspect the Prime,but I don't think that it's the problem at all. How many water chnages did you do through these five days of treatment/how much water?

What test kit are you using?The thing is that I would think if all these water changes would be happening this much,that you really shouldn't be seeing much in the way of traces of anything. :unsure:

What and how much is he eating? Do you have alot of gravel in the tank,and do you gravel vac weekly?

How long was this tank running so far?

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Sharon,

Tell me about confusion!!

I'll try to answer your questions.

Tank has been running since mid January. I have an Aquaclear 20 on it, currently with carbon and the original sponge (carbon put back in after M2 treatment).

Gravel - doesn't even cover the bottom of the tank. Almost half the tank is bare due to Googly not being able to see or suck up anything stuck in the gravel. I took almost all of the gravel out early on (2nd/3rd week) in small amounts so it wouldn't disturb the cycling too much. I've had this small amount in for two weeks or more. I have three plastic plants. Have been in tank since beginning. Nothing new introduced at all. I vacuum each time I change the water just to make sure there isn't food hanging around the bottom.

I started water changes on Day 3 of the M2 treatment ... the day I posted that my ammonia had spiked significantly. I did a huge water change and retreated with M2 as recommended. The problem continued throughout the final two days of treatment with me doing huge water changes, retreating (went through a lot of M2 and Prime). After Day 5, I did a massive water change, put my carbon back in to clear up what remained of the M2, retreated with Prime and tested. Ammonia was very high still, did another water change, again, big. Ammonia did not shift. This was quite late at night so I couldn't do another because my daughter was asleep.

Yesterday, I started first thing in the morning and throughout the day, I did 4 huge water changes, at least 75% and each time, retreated with Prime. The ammonia didn't shift. I tested my tap water, it was fine.

Today I've done three big water changes and still ammonia. I did go back to my original conditioner for the last two changes and still ammonia. I retested my pH and it is down to about 7.8. No nitrites/nitrates at present. The temp of the tank had been 80 (to facilitate the M2) but have been slowly putting it down. Today, I went down to 74 degrees as my manual said higher temps/high pH make the ammonia more toxic. I've increased oxygen as per my brother, a hydrogeologist who has tried to help me with understanding how all the chemistry works.

My test kits .. original ones I bought ... drop type. Mini Master Test Kit by Nutrafin and Nitrate Test Kit by Nutrafin (only ones available in my town that I can find).

I am at a total loss. I hope I'm not giving anyone the impression I'm fed up and don't want to be bothered because that's not it at all. I just don't want to cause Googly any more suffering. I think I've done enough damage with my ignorance. At a guess, I think my cycle is starting all over again and I just don't think he can take the roller coaster ride?

I'm continuing on with water changes.

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Tammy, I don't think you are coming across as giving up. We understand at this point how frustrating things become as well as "Googly's" aspect.

In my opinion (as others) Prime is the best conditioner, so as Sharon said I too don't think it is that, but as you said it is cycling again.

Usually though it doesn't take as long with a "bump" in the cycle, so hopefully if you continue to gain control thru water changes it will take hold.

Have you ever heard of a product called Cycle or Bio spira? These are aids in nitrates (good bacteria), if you could get some it may help boost the nitrates.

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Laurie,

:wall I can't find Biospira but we have Cycle at work. I will pick some up asap and give it a go. The Prime was the only thing that I could think to change but as noted, taking it out of the equation didn't do anything at all.

Googly is sitting at the bottom tonight. Comes over to say hi, but goes right back down to the bottom. I'm going to check his water again now and do another round of water changing before my daughter heads to bed.

Thanks.

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:hug We certainly didn't think that you were giving up Tammy,and in fact,feel your frustration as well.We have all probably been here at one time or another,so we know how easy it is to feel like we are doing nothing right.You are trying to help Googly as best as you can,and that's all you can do. :heart

Unfortunately,we don't know the beginnings of his life.He may have came with problems that you weren't originally aware of,but that's the thing--we don't know that.It would be wonderful if they could tell us,what ails them,wouldn't it? :heart He looked very skinny from that first pic,so maybe that is an underlying issue in itself as well.

As much as I hate to say it,it's back to water changes again.Please don't beat yourself up on this. Focus on the params again,as we are back to square one. I'm sure hoping that Googly somehow pulls through for you,but Tammy,if he doesn't,you at least know that you did what you could for the little guy. :heart

I'm one of those people who believe "It ain't over til the fat lady sings",so I am still rooting for googly.

I wish I was closer to help you.

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Hi Tammy :)

I just wanted to ask a question (and hope you haven't already answered it - thereby missing your answer) but when treating the water with Prime, how much are you using each time? Is it one capful with each change?

The reason why your ammonia appears to be on the rise is because the Nutrafin Ammonia test kit is nessler based and while nessler kits provide a faster test result, they're not compatible with any ammonia treatment chemicals - making them redundant when using products like Prime or Amquel. The best type of kit to use for ammonia testing (when using Prime or Amquel etc) is salicylate based as it reads the total ammonia level - giving a more accurate level.

So on the whole, you should be able to rest easy on the current ammonia level - as long as you continue to add a capful with each change because while your reading may be sky high, in truth the ammonia will already have been detoxified. If ever you're able to, API have a salicylate based kit which I use on my tanks as I have ammonia out of my tap and it gives me an accurate reading :)

I'd also like to chime in on what Sharon said about the possibility of a pre-existing condition and based on the pics of googly, I can't help but agree. He appears to be painfully thin and usually when goldies start to waste away or have that 'waif' appearance, it could be due to parasites (either flukes or internal worms) or from a problem with the liver and this could be the reason why he's starting to pinecone :(

Does he ever shake at all? Yawn? Dart around quickly?

Anyhow, I just want to reassure you again that the ammonia will be rendered harmless when using Prime but unfortunately not all test kits will supply you with an accurate reading so you could add another capful of Prime every 12 hours - this is usually the amount I need in my 10 gallon hospital tank when medicating :)

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Jen,Great catch on the nessler based test kit!! Your a genius!!! I've never used any kit but Aquarium Pharmaceuticals,and have no ammonia in my water to question anything,so I had no idea. All I knew was the readings Tammy was coming up with was not matching what I thought them to be. :krazy:

Tam,How is Googly doing this morning?

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Jen I too missed that. Like Sharon, it's Aquarium pharms for me too.

HOpefully that will give us a clearer picture there anyway.

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Guest Juliosmom

Hello everyone,

Whew! Jen, didn't have a clue about the ammonia readings. I was quite honestly in tears the one day because I just couldn't seem to get the water under control!

The water is in better shape than it was, but I'm still showing small amounts of ammonia (yes, I was using about a capful of Prime as the bottle indicated for getting ammonia under control) and a very small amount of Nitrites. I've been changing half of the water whenever I see the nitrites.

Googly is and has been sitting on the bottom for the past 2 days. He does eat and swim around a bit, but mostly just sits. He doesn't dart around or sit on one side, he just sits. I did mention at one point in another area that he has an extraordinarily small mouth and all of the food I give him has to be made into tiny pieces. That's why I started hand feeding him but even that takes about 1/2 hour each time as he 'chews' very slowly.

We're in a holding pattern. If he goes down any further, I'm going to use the suggested euthanizing method, but in the meantime, we're going to keep his water as close to perfect as possible and adopt a bit of a wait and see attitude. I don't want him to suffer but it's a hard decision to take his little life as well.

Thanks everyone. Will keep updating.

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