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Guest Juliosmom

Black Moor With Bad Fin

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Guest Juliosmom

Did a second water change of 50%.

Following that AND the addition of a little pseudo filter (more of a mini powerhead than filter) that came with my son's tropical aquarium, my params are as follows:

pH - 8.0

Ammonia - 0

Nitrites - .3 or Less but still not 0

Nitrates - 10

Out of the tap, my params are:

pH - 8.0/8.2

Ammonia - 0

Nitrites - 0

Nitrates - 10 (i did this one twice) Is this normal?

Will keep on with the changes.

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It isn't uncommon to see some nitrates in the tap water. This will mean you have to stay up on keeping them around 20ish. Some members say no higher than 40, however I found 40 to be too high and the start of problems.

So I personally recommend nitrates between 10-20.

Whenever you change water your nitrates will never be less than 10, for that is what the tap is. Again something you won't want to hear, but more frequent water changes will keep them in order.

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Investing in some Prime helps too Tam. :D

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Guest Juliosmom

Heigh Ho, Heigh Ho, it's back to the fishie store I go! :D

I'm gonna have me some major 'pipes' .. who needs a gym?

Water is my friend, water is my friend. :crazy:

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You are funny Tammy!! :rofl

Hey that is looking on the bright side of things, good for you. I love your optimisic attitude.

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:rofl Hey Tammy,When your pipes start looking bigger than your Hubby's,maybe he'll buy you a nice big tank! :yeah::lol2

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Guest Juliosmom

Hello!

I've been watching for secondary infection as recommended and I *think* one has set in. Googly's fins are drooping and while his injured fin is healed as are some of the 'tears' he had originally, two lower back sets of fins are not being used. He keeps them close to his body and doesn't use them to swim at all. Also, he is nose down quite a bit, certainly not perpendicular, but definitely nose down. Cotton wool (or whatever it is) still present and it looks as though his side scales are sticking out very slightly.

He is still eating, swimming and reacting. No bottom sitting, but sits in the top corner of the tank quite a bit.

Params:

Ammonia 0

Nitrite Less than .3 this morning but still not gone

Nitrate 20

pH - holding steady at 8.0

I have removed my oranda from the tank and put him in a borrowed tank so in the 10 gallon I have Googly and Pigglywinks, another black moor. This is the best I can do for all of them until I save up for a larger tank.

I've been doing water changes of 50% at least once a day, more if time permits between kids, job and other pets! Still keeping the water salted in hopes of counteracting some of the nitrite present.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Juliosmom

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Hmmmm, I think the salt is a good idea at this point. It will help with the nitrites.

When you say he is holding the fins close to his body, what fins?

Sorry is you were specific with this info, but what is making you think bacterial infection? (have a migraine still and is making me cloudy)

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Guest Juliosmom

Hi Laurie, sorry about your head! Migraines are the worst. I get them when under stress and I'm down for days sometimes!

The fins are his lower back two sets. I'm sorry , my fish anatomy is terrible to say the least. His injured fin was his frontmost fin on his 'chest'. The fins behind those and then the small fins by his bum are the ones that are clamped and he doesn't use.

His back end keeps pointing upwards and all of his fins are 'drooping' and his body scales seem to be sticking out somewhat as opposed to sitting close to his body.

Sorry, was that any clearer? If I could get a decent photo of him, I would, but I can't seem to get a good one.

Feel Better!

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Guest Juliosmom

Okay, after a quick fish anatomy lesson .... ventralpelvis fins and anal fins. Clamped close to body and not being used at all from what I can tell.

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Ok, did he ever use those fins before? If I remember correctly, some fish don't use them often, so this may not be a problem.

However, the vertical floating concerns me as well as the scales sticking out.

He is active, and acting ok otherwise yes?

Scales sticking out or pineconing can mean a couple different things, from parasites to dropsy, the later being lifethreateing.

I would say watch him close for a few hours, if he is still acting ok and not going down hill quickly it is most "likely" NOT dropsy. But to warn you it can sneak up quick.

How long has he been on med food? Oh wait, has he been on med food? If he hasn't been then fasting him would be a good idea. A 2 day fast followed by 2 days of peas would give him a good cleaning out.

If he has been on med food, how long has he been eating it?

I wouldn't necessarily say it is bacterial from the symptoms you are describing. But the butt up floating could be a touch of SBD which could be bacterial.

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Guest Juliosmom

Hey Laurie,

No med food. Again, having issues finding it in my area. May have to order online. Have been feeding a mixture of Hakuri lionhead baby pellets (soaked) and Tetrafin goldfish flakes twice daily. He prefers the flakes with his tiny little mouth! He can't eat off the top of the tank.

Will fast him today and tomorrow and start peas on Wednesday morning as per your suggestion.

To be honest, I can't recall if he did use those fins! He's been unwell for so long I can't recall him healthy.

At this point, he does not use them at all.

He has been the same for a few days. I had a fish with Dropsy years ago so I know what that looks like. That pinecone thing is the freakiest thing I have ever seen so I won't forget it. This is nowhere near that, but the scales just don't look right ... they aren't sleek and flat to his sides.

K, will report back in a day or so and let you know how he's managing. Another water change tonight.

Gary, the cranky and piggy Oranda is quite enjoying his new tank but here we go again with the cycling challenge! This is Tank 3 in the last two months! :blink:

Take care of that head!

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Sounds good Tammy.

I would get some medigold or metromed from goldfish connection online. (that is if you are in the states). At least to have on hand, depending on how many fish you have the small one is pretty reasonable and will last 6 mos. I keep mine in the fridge even though they say you don't have too. Makes me feel better.

Yeah I know what you mean with recognizing dropsy right away, when you go thru it you know immediately.

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Your Nitrites are still reading too high,so some water changes are needed to get them lowered to 0.Any sign of clamped fins,no matter if they use them or not, isn't a good sign-it's a symptom.Pine coning/Dropsy is a symptom.They could be symptoms caused by poor water quality/Bacterial/Parasites.The very first thing needed to do would to get those params in order.It's very hard to diagnose when they're not.Normally when you see a fish tilted in the way you are describing, yes,it could be two different things.Sb could be an issue yes,but personally,I think that all symptoms are leading more towards a bacterial problem myself.

Medi-Gold/Metro-Med,is the best solution,but if you don't have access to that,then I think a water borne Bacterial Med is in order. I would try something like the Maracyns,because between them both,they fight both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. The longer these fish have the floaty issue/lifted scales,the more risk you're taking that it's not going to be fixble. These symptoms are showing up for a reason-whether it be poor water params or not,and have to be dealt with quickly.

Tell me something,do you see any redness at all near these fins-even if it's slight?Any tiny red dots anywhere on the belly?Check the under belly itself.Are scales sticking out in one specific area,or all over?

If you happen to have Nitrates in your Tap water,then that's even more reason to start using a conditioner like Prime,as they detoxify these things,so you may want to look into that.

Have you seen him poo lately,and if so,what does it look like? :unsure:

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Guest Juliosmom

No red that I can see anywhere. No wthite spots on belly. The slightly raised scales are on his sides only and they are confined to a small area. The fins I mentioned are still tightly clamped. And his nose is definitely down the majority of the time.

He is now alone in his tank so I hope to have the nitrites down asap. I had originally left Pigglywinks, the Black Moor, with him, but tonight, Piggly started beating up on him and slamming him into the bottom of the tank. He was banished toute suite. I'm hoping Googly will be okay on his own; he 'seemed' depressed when his tankmate passed away. Honestly, if it isn't one thing, it's another.

I will try to find some Maracyns asap as well.

Thx again,

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Guest Juliosmom

Poo is coloured/brownish but looks like some whitish sections. He's not very big so it's hard to see clearly. He's still determined to find food and unfortunately, my daughter decided to feed him tonight so we'll start his fasting first thing tomorrow.

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Guest Juliosmom

Oh, Happy Day!

After two huge water changes this morning, my params are as follows:

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0 (WOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!) :bingo:

Nitrate 20

pH 8.0

Googly is swimming around like a champ and I am very HAPPY to report that the white covering on his body seems to be improving!! His scales are still sticking out that tiny bit and he is still nose down but his swimming is more level now. :D I'm going to continue to watch him for another day or so before medicating him.

Mind you, Pigglywinks and Gary are now stuck in my 5.5 gallon hospital tank *SIGH*. I've set it up by my kitchen sink so I can do water changes quickly and easily until I can find them something bigger. It hasn't cycled, being newly set up, but this way I can test and keep on top of the water quality.

Anyhoo, one battle at a time! :hummm

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:alc Woo-Hoo Tammy,as that is finally the first step.Now the trick is maintaining it without any of those levels going up.I'm just sad that the other guys are stuffed in a smaller tank. :(

Are you waiting about an hour after water changing to test?

Okay,the next day or two,we need to pay close attention to this little one to see how he's reacting. Only feed small amount to minimize waste for now. Or did you start fasting him for peas?

Now we could still be talking water params ,as for what his problems were in the first place,but we also have to consider that there's a chance that it could have gone bacterial on us also,so we want to py attention for clamped fins/white poo/red streaks /red spots/etc.

Give him a day to rest abit and let me know asap if you see the slightest changes what-so -ever. :)

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Guest Juliosmom

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/Dra...ber/Fish005.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/Dra...ber/Fish007.jpg

I've attached a couple of pics I took this morning. Apparently, Googly hates having his picture taken because he tried to hide behind plants everytime. Sorry, the pics aren't great BUT, I hope you can see the improvement in his overall posture ... his fins are up/out or down depending on location. He's starting to unclamp the lower fins and use them. His tail is straight out and spread; not drooping anymore. The white covering is going, he has a very little on his head between his eyes and a bit on his sides, but it is much, much improved even to hubby who said "it's only a fish; flush him". He's a the sensitive sort, can you tell? He is having a much easier time chasing and eating his food although he is still a bit of a spaz, but his abdomen is beginning to plump up a bit and he looks like a chubby fish. I'm hoping those missing scales on his side will come back at some point. He is 'blackening' up as well. He seems happy.

I'm slowly removing some of the gravel/rocks I have in his aquarium. He bumps into them quite a bit.

Still monitoring him and the tank carefully.

You both have been a great help and support! I'm sure Googly would have never made it without your help and all I've learned on Koko's. In order to stay home with my children while they are young, I work nights and weekends at a major chain store which most Americans/Canadians know very well and they have been mentioned on this board quite a bit. I work in the Seasonal section which is beside the pet section and therefore, I spend a lot of time with the fish (the only living creatures in the store). I spend considerable time talking to people and I pass on everything I learn on this group. I've made up an information sheet for the goldfish that I give to everyone thinking of starting a tank or who come in and wonder why their goldfish is sick, not thriving or dying. I use my own ignorance and tank struggles as an example and I keep reading and educating myself! :yeah: I also pass on the the Koko's website info to them!

Thanks so much Laurie and Sharon!!

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:D Well Tammy,he may not be completely out of the woods yet,but gosh,what a huge improvement for sure.You're right,just his overall posture is so much better.He looked at death's door in the beginning,so he's come a long way. :) That just goes to show people how clean water alone,can and really will make a difference.

Moors are known for not having the best eyesight to begin with.My Mambo "spazzes" around at dinner time also ,as she doesn't see too well.She can smell it though and that's what gets her going. :D

Keep testing those params and doing your water changes.As you can see, Googly is getting healthier/happier,because of it. :heart

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Guest Juliosmom

Will do Sharon! He's still not his gorgeous self, but he's getting there :D:heart I'm relieved he seems to be happy on his own. My oranda and other BM seem to get along well and with 50% water changes daily, their little tank is holding it's own. I try to do a lot of my lugging of water when Hubby is around to make him feel guilty :rofl

I do have a question! In Googly's tank, I am running an Aquaclear 20 (came with my daughter's tank). Probably not big enough and therefore part of my problem; however .... I have not changed the Amrid, charcoal or sponge since setting the tank up in mid-January. I have rinsed all in tank water twice. How should I go about changing these without upsetting my water params? Is there a particular order? I'm assuming, since I have no ammonia, I shouldn't really worry about that insert? What about the sponge and the charcoal inserts? The sponge was positively gross but the rinsing took a lot of the grunge out of it.

Don't want to upset the balance unnecessarily.

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Oh I am thrilled with his progress! Goodness he looks so much better!

As Sharon said, keep at it, still too close to call but it does sound promising. As for using any med, I would wait at this point to give the perfect water time to heal completely. You wouldn't want to invite a "bump" in that cycle by using a med in the water.

Congrats on informing customers. That is wonderful, we often can be the experience that helps others from our mistakes. Good for you!!

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Tammy,to tell you the truth,I'd get rid of the Amrid insert.Sometimes things like those,after they do their job,can actually send bad stuff back into your tank again,the same with the carbon. You'll find that alot of the more experienced people only use carbon when they're taking meds out of the tank,or just trying to get the water a bit more clear.Carbon works for a good couple weeks and then kind of dies out.I'd personally pitch the Carbon and the other insert.Your best bet with ammonia is to just do the water changes.You can keep fresh carbon handy,just in case a need would arise,but most people use just their Aquaclear,some bio bug media stone for good bacteria to catch onto and that's it. :) As long as you just rinsed your filter in old tank water,you should be fine.Once in a while people may see a bump in their cycle,but not enough to wreak too much havoc.Continue on,you're doing fine so far! :exactly

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Guest Juliosmom

:) Thanks for the info on the filter!

After a couple of days of watching, Googly's fungus and fin issues seem to be resolving themselves. Water params are doing good, staying where they should.

However, he is still spending quite a bit of time nose down. He can straigten out and swim but his back end spends quite a bit of time up. I've been comparing him to Pigglywinks, my other BM, who doesn't go bottoms up unless he's searching for food on the bottom.

So, I think there is something going on there. Should I start the Maracyn? Should I be prepared for water problems while using it? Any side effects? I've never used it before so I'd like to be on the lookout for possible issues prior to starting.

Thanks!

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Guest Juliosmom

PANIC!!! I'm attaching pics. I retested my water ... something just didn't feel right. Params as follows:

Fish012.jpg

Fish011.jpg

Fish010.jpg

Ammonia - 0

Nitrites - past .3 :o

Nitrates - way too high!!!!!!!!

ph - 8.0

I don't know what happened in my original test! I did immediate 75% water change, retested after an hour:

Nitrites down to .1

Nitrates down to 20

Did another 60% water change and am waiting to retest! I've re-salted as well.

Does this picture look like pineconing??? His scales are sticking out from what I can see. He's droopy again and was nose down on the bottom.

Sorry, the pics aren't great. Can you tell?

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