Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 My lionhead who died was my mother's fish. She had him in a 5 gallon tank and then when she had to go away for a while i took him in and he stayed with me until he passed away. I wish I would have known about this site before he died, he probably would have made it. Prior to me getting the 20 gallon tank I had done my research all over the internet, learning more about their diet, housing, etc. In almost every site I've read it says 10 gallon per fish is good enough space. So I do not think people do not do their research I just think when the majority of sites are telling you the same information you are more likely to believe they know what they are talking about therefore you go out and do what you have learned. I did a lot of research, read up on people who own goldies and what they have done to keep them healthy. I would spend hours just trying to find all you can, that is why i had to convince my mom to get a bigger tank for her fish. And I know it makes no sense that w/all my research i would have known more about water changes, which i did but as I've stated before, I messed up on water changes thanks to the "expert" at the fish store and was new to canister filters. So to say there are no excuses is not fair b/c we do the best we can, we try to learn before we get our pets but with so many so called fish experts and sites telling you from "their own experience" we do not realize that perhaps they are sending out the wrong message. Just recently I came across a site from another "expert" who states that UGFs are ideal filters for goldies, whether that is true or not, people will read this and either continue researching or figure this guy/girl knows what they are talking about and will go buy one thinking that they are doing the right thing. I'm doing the best I can, I made mistakes and I'm learning. My fish, believe it or not appear happy, well except for now b/c they are waiting for breakfast . Same w/ raising kids, you do the best you can w/the first, learn from your mistakes and try to do better w/the next one. But like i said i am grateful for your post and from what i've learned and will upgrade asap. karla You are very right. Most of what you read or are told about fish is indeed wrong. You cannot trust the LFS people (who are often more worried about selling something than the fish's well being). Books are often not right either. The problem is, most of these books are written by older aquarists or re-prints of older books. The hobby had grown a lot over the years very fast. Back in the 70's people used UGF's, put their oscar in a 29g and fed it feeder fish...now oscar owners know you cannot do that and expect to have a healthy oscar. The same is true for goldfish. Forums are probably the best method, they have the most up to date experiances and "new school" fishkeepers who know more about fish growth and water quality that "old school" fishkeepers. People should do the research, if they do and the research is wrong it's not their fault so I admit that it is difficult to find good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin koko Posted August 11, 2006 Admin Share Posted August 11, 2006 You know SandTiger. we all try to tell people that the bigger the better for goldfish, but as some others have said the problem is that Goldfish are still considered as junk fish. Most people when they come on here when you tell them that there 5 gal tank is to small and they need at least a 20 gal for one fish they will get a little freaked out...... I know these fish get quite big. I have an 8 year old Oranda that is almost 9" long now but most stores sell the 6 month year old and they cant see the great big pic of how big they get......Most people think that goldfish only live to a year and then die......i think the big pic is to get people to realize that these fish live to at least 10 years and the commons longer..... I think on this site we try to break it in gently to people and not to cram things down there throat. Some people want to do everything for there fish including feeding them good foods and not the junk foods you can get in the LFS..... I understand your post about the tank size, but also remember that most 10 year old kids cant afford the 100 gal tanks or even the 30 gal tanks.....We try to make them understand and we also say they need a bigger tank, better filtration for them too, but you cant get everyone to do it. Its a start and a good way of thinking for them.........But I think we need to get people to think about the fact that goldfish are junk fish first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 I am hoping that if people are coming here for advice they aren't viewing goldfish as junk fish. I want people to know the truth about these fish so they can decide if they want one, want to keep theirs or should look for a smaller fish species. I don't think that many people view them as junk fish either. Commons, perhaps but not the fancy types. At vvvv fancy godlfish cost more than an oscar, the larger ones are between $14 and $30. Comets and shubunkins are not sold as 29 cent feeders. Only the commons have the title of "junk fish". If people get freaked out about what a goldfish really needs than they probably should not have one. We...or at least I am here to give advice, not "break it to them gently". I have no problem telling people "a 10g is a good start" or "you will probably need to upgrade" but that's not the advice I am finding given here. I find things like this. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...topic=49975&hl= This person is looking for a fish that she can place in a 37g tank for it's entire life, no upgrading. Yet people are telling here she can have a common goldfish in there because "they only need 20g". I have no problem telling people they will have to upgrade but she is ASKING for a fish that won't need an upgrade and a common goldfish or two in that kind of tank would need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member x-Lucy-Fish-x Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 If you told everyone who couldnt provide a perfect home for their fish to find a person who can.. well its just not possible, think how many goldfish there are on this planet.. then think how many people who are willing and able to do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin koko Posted August 11, 2006 Admin Share Posted August 11, 2006 I am hoping that if people are coming here for advice they aren't viewing goldfish as junk fish. I want people to know the truth about these fish so they can decide if they want one, want to keep theirs or should look for a smaller fish species. I don't think that many people view them as junk fish either. Commons, perhaps but not the fancy types. At vvvv fancy godlfish cost more than an oscar, the larger ones are between $14 and $30. Comets and shubunkins are not sold as 29 cent feeders. Only the commons have the title of "junk fish". If people get freaked out about what a goldfish really needs than they probably should not have one. We...or at least I am here to give advice, not "break it to them gently". I have no problem telling people "a 10g is a good start" or "you will probably need to upgrade" but that's not the advice I am finding given here. I find things like this. http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/...topic=49975&hl= This person is looking for a fish that she can place in a 37g tank for it's entire life, no upgrading. Yet people are telling here she can have a common goldfish in there because "they only need 20g". I have no problem telling people they will have to upgrade but she is ASKING for a fish that won't need an upgrade and a common goldfish or two in that kind of tank would need one. But that's were youngsters are just trying to help others out....That's when we step in and try to make them understand....i see were your coming from.....but we need to work on it slowly....Look how long it took just to get people to understand they don't belong in bowls.....Things take time and things change i understand this and you don't want to shock people or turn them off on fish keeping..... I learned allot of things just by reading and trying. and when I built this site there was only 3 other sites out on the net like this, I had to learn everything on my own and the LFS didn't help me what so ever..... I try to make this site so kids will learn to love there fish and can keep them..... So yes there's a side were you need to show people how much is needed but on the other hand you don't want to scare them..... Slow is always better as long as the fish are safe..... I think it would be great when people are taking about how much room they need for a fish is to include a photo of a fish when its a baby to when they get to an average size to show them why, people some times cant see the image in there head....I still cant believe how small my fry was and how big she is now being 8 months old....So to see them grow up to a adult gives more perspective on the size of the fish you get from a LFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member karla80 Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 To be honest, I agree w/x-Lucy-Fish-x, there are just too many out there. At least a goldie has a fighting chance in a 10gallon or 20 gallon(for commons) than to be left at the petstore living miserabely. Most sites just tell you 10 gallons per goldfish, at least here we see this rule as a minimum and not an ideal size tank also we have a forum where we can give advice and learn from others. karla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 To be honest, I agree w/x-Lucy-Fish-x, there are just too many out there. At least a goldie has a fighting chance in a 10gallon or 20 gallon(for commons) than to be left at the petstore living miserabely. Most sites just tell you 10 gallons per goldfish, at least here we see this rule as a minimum and not an ideal size tank also we have a forum where we can give advice and learn from others. karla It's common sense that you cannot get everyone to change. I bet for every person with a goldfish in a 10g there are a hundred who keeps them in bowls. The difference between everyone else and the members here is that the members here care. If we can get only a couple people out of the 6 billion on this planet to change their fish keeping ways than it's a step in the right direction. Most LFS sell larger fish to people with small tanks. Channel catfish are a great example...these catfish can grow over three feet long. Most probably end up in 10-29g tanks. Does that justify me putting one in a 75g just because its a better tank than everyone else is providing? I would be giving it a fighting chance and that's all that matters right? So lets say a forum comes up devoted to channel catfish, would it be alright to tell everyone that a 75g is a good minimum for a catfish that grows over three feet? No, that would be bad advice. You tell them that a channel catfish needs a pond or tank in the lines of a thousand gallons. Most people will moan and groan and do nothing. Some will find the fish a home in someone's pond. Some will take the fish back to the LFS and express their dissapointment in the bad advice. No matter what happens to the fish at least now the people know what it needs and can streer others in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandy Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Isnt that what we are doing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Hidr Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 This thread is getting disturbing. YAA HOO to all of you that have upgraded to give your fish 10g/20g+ each. (Me included) You are doing a great job and should not feel bad if you can't offer more. As long as you keep up your water changes you are not being cruel to your fish friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Anic Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Don't you think that if you come off as rude about the info you're giving, that people will just not pay attention to you? I've never seen someone take the advice of someone who was being a jerk about it. I'm not saying that you're being a jerk about it, but you are coming off as a little rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Isnt that what we are doing here? Yes but we are also suggesting a smaller tanksize than the fish actually needs. Just like you would not tell someone a 75g is alright for a channel catfish or koi we should not tell people a 20g is alright for a common goldfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Don't you think that if you come off as rude about the info you're giving, that people will just not pay attention to you? I've never seen someone take the advice of someone who was being a jerk about it. I'm not saying that you're being a jerk about it, but you are coming off as a little rude. Emotions are difficult to convey over the internet. You cannot see my body language, hear my voice or attach what I am feeling to my text. It may come off as rude to you, I am not trying to be rude though. It's all about interpretaion. I don't know how else to say what I am saying. It's a debate, it is the nature of debates to generate emotion. I am just defending my position. If I wanted to be rude, you would know it. Also, I like to think I come off a little less strongly when I give advice to people seking it. I have yet to get a complaint to the best of my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member glitterfish Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 I honestly dont think anything is going to come out of this thread. Those catfish should really only be in zoos and similar places that can replicate natural habitat. Same with other large fish like some sharks and pacus. 20g is, in my opinion, ok for a common for awhile, but people need to know that they will have to upgrade eventually. It's probably not ideal but face it, not much is going to change as long as they are readily available in pet shops and for cheap. Sure a few will be educated but thats only a handful out of millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandy Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Personally I dont think common goldfish, comets etc should be kept in indoor tanks at all, only fancies should. I certainly wouldnt dream of telling anyone else that, but try to help them with what they have and ultimately what they can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandtiger Posted August 11, 2006 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 This thread is getting disturbing. YAA HOO to all of you that have upgraded to give your fish 10g/20g+ each. (Me included) You are doing a great job and should not feel bad if you can't offer more. As long as you keep up your water changes you are not being cruel to your fish friend. You're telling me it's alright to keep an 18" fish in a 24" tank? Or a 12" fish? Or even a 10" or 8" fish? Sorry, I cannot except that as responsable fishkeeping. Commons can grow over 8" no problem. Some fancy goldfish can reach 8", most are I admit smaller, but they can easily grow to 6". A 10g is only 20" long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandy Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 But in another thread you said it was ok to put 4 guppies into a 5 gallon tank, surely that is overcrowding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Lozbug Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 what the!!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemini528 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Plain and simple... not everyone can afford 75 gallon tanks for every single fish they own. Their budget just doesn't cut it. I've already done my best and upgraded to a 55-gallon for my three shubunkin. I think we all understand the point Sandtiger is trying to make. You know the members here care about the health of the goldfish. And you said yourself that we are trying to get the other six billion goldfish owners out there to be aware of the goldfish's living space. Debating with the members who already know about the goldfish requirements won't be as effective as if you tell those other six billion what they're doing wrong. It's a great task, but you seem ready to take it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member sandy Posted August 11, 2006 Regular Member Share Posted August 11, 2006 Im going to close it just now and let another mod decide whether it should be opened again. I think as well that everything has been said but it may get personal. A good clean topic so far so lets leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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